New kirche (church) proposed for NFS

[Rosie Gray]

As you will know from the recent first meeting of the 15th RA, I have proposed to replace the church in NFS with one that I've built with this intended purpose.

My reasons for wanting to do this:
Back in 2006 when I first found Neufreistadt, I was very much inspired by the sim and it's little walled city. I spent many months where I'd visit there, wandering the foothills, going to the MoCa events and chatting with people. At that time the church and the Schloss, indeed the entire sim build made a great impression on me. I wandered away from the CDS then, and have spent much time adventuring the rest of SL and learning to build. When I first came back to NFS last year (2010), one of the first things that struck me was how out of date now much of it is, especially the church and the schloss as they dominate the town.

Now, when I look at the existing church, this is what I see:

• Very primmy build - it is almost 700 prims including everything inside of it. An example of how the prims are inefficiently used is either side of the altar where there are 18 prims on each side (total of 36 prims) that are there to create a bit of shape. You can barely see the shape created, and 1 prim in each place with a good texture would have done the same job. This is one example of many I could point out in this build.

  Why does it matter if builds are prim-heavy? More prims nearby means you have more to rezz in your draw distance. NFS is a concentration of lots of prims with different textures, in a small space. Reducing prims, or at the very least making sure that every prim counts for something constructive will help in this area.

  NFS needs prims for events. We know from past experience with Oktoberfest, that NFS is short on prims for events, and in fact citizens have donated their prims from the sim (meaning removing their builds from their lots), so that specific events can function without crashing the sim.

• Unrealistic build - it doesn't reflect how a real church is built. An example of this is the flying buttresses that are much too small in comparison to the rest of the building. Also, at the back of the building where the altar is has an unfinished roofline that you can see straight into the church from. There are also some roundish prims outside at the back that serve no apparent purpose other than being there, round. The interior bracings have big round balls in the centre that gravity would surely have something to say about in the real world. The interior pillars lack any kind of grace or historical accuracy.

• Textures – the main texture used is a grey-block floor texture, which is used on the walls inside and out and the ceiling and interior bracings. The textures everywhere are stretched, or squashed, or sideways. In very few instances do you see a texture that is in fact correctly applied. There are full bright prims mixed in, also inappropriately.

I have posted some pictures to illustrate what I mean on my Flickr account here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rosie_gray ... 907782670/

Other issues about this building:

What is its purpose? If it is meant to be a realistic church, it fails on almost every count. If it is not meant to be that, then what is it and why is it there?

This build is not linked together, and the builder has not been seen in SL for many years. He is not a member of the community. Nobody currently has any permissions on this building.

Comments welcomed!

[Rosie Gray]

I have placed the new kirche that I've built on the common land in Locus Amoenus, in the sky. There is a teleporter on the ground on the little quay with the steps up from the river there.

The build is almost complete, but I have not continued to work on the crypt at this time until I have some more feedback about it, and a decision as to if we will use it in NFS or not. I would plan on putting a memorial to Kendra there, replacing the one from the old kirche. There are other little details I've not added yet either, but am currently working on some pews.

I welcome your feedback!

[FernLeissa]

Hi Rosie,

As you know, I've seen your build and very much like it. I would support replacing the old Kirche with your new build.

Building techniques in sl have improved over the years. I think we should take advantage of what builders, including yourself, have learned about improving the appearance and primminess of structures. Most pp also recognize that NFS needs some renovation. I think we can do that without destroying the original character of the town.

It is unfortunate that the present Kirche is not linked together and that we do not, as a community, seem to have perms. It would have been nice to turn a copy over to the CA. This however should not prevent us from moving forward with improvements to NFS.

You already indicated in your discussion before the RA that you would make sure the CA got a copy of your build. I like that idea.

Fern

[Sudane Erato]

This is a very hard topic for me, as I have expressed to Rosie. While everything that Rosie says is true regarding the advisability of updating our major builds, the existing Kirche is a build and a place of major emotional significance to me, and it would be very hard for me to see it disappear. I pledge to stand neutral (except for one VERY important issue) on its potential replacement, because I am so torn. But I thought that even doing so I might weigh in with helpful comments...

You should know that I in fact have a somewhat special relationship to "churches". As a young college student, after many twists and turns, and extensive work with the church, I resolved to become a Lutheran minister. I received an M.Div from Union Theological Seminary in New York with that intention, but the fates had other intentions. Before being ordained, my interests drifted to other areas, and I was also drawn into a major legal fight with the local bishop. That was the end of my formal relationship to the Lutheran church. I later joined the Greek church because of marrying into a Greek family. But my time as a social member of any church was over. Too much I see the contradictions and hypocrisy of the organized churches, and knowing as I do the real substance and intention of the Christian religious beliefs, I can no longer participate. But my passionate relationship to religious experience and the vision of humaness which Christianity, the only religion I really know, contains has caused me to stay very connected. I am a student of churches themselves, thru the ages, and the religious figures whose beliefs they expressed. I'm also a student of the analytical psychology of CG Jung who's understanding of the essence of religion provides an invaluable framework to understanding. All my growth has been in that framework.

It was this interest which caused me, perhaps 4 weeks into my residency in Second Life, to discover "Neualtenburg" and a woman who had arrived only a few months before, but who was offering regular weekly discussion sessions, in the Kirche, on topics of religion. Her name was Gwyneth Llewelyn, and the sessions were extraordinary, both in challenging my mind and also in Gwyn's finding a way to incorporate all points of view into the discussion, while at the same time staying amazingly on track with her point. Ms. Llewelyn will acknowledge, I'm sure, that I would rarely agreed with her on the points of view which she presented. But the sessions were inspiring and challenging, and I attended regularly.

Of course, Gwyn no longer holds those sessions, and little goes on in the Kirche now. But it was certainly a focus of my attention, and one primary and overriding issue of definition became clear, about the Kirche, as we went through the process of defining and establishing the CDS democracy. The Kirche is more than a simple house of worship used and supported by its adherents. The Kirche is one of the symbols of the CDS democracy, expressing at one end of the Platz a content of human value which transcends any one religion or world view. I'd suggest that the Kirche is more akin to a physical "universal declaration of human rights", a non-denominational structure in the fullest sense of that word. Indeed, its really a monument to the human spirit.

So... this VERY important issue is that the church MUST be explicitly non-denominational. Of course, a "church" by its very nature is rooted in Christian origins, and I would certainly not advocate anything other than a church at this site. But, like the existing Kirche, any replacement must explicitly express to the visitor that it contains within its walls space for all faiths, all paths, all experiences. Most importantly, the internal focal point, the altar, cannot be a Christian altar... it must be a place where any person conscious of their own religious strivings finds a place. The qualification is... that they themselves are ready to accept all other paths of religious strivings, to respect and dialog with others' experiences.

The denominational decorations I see no problem with. Indeed, we should strive to incorporate many faiths' symbols into the space, so that all will find something familiar, and also become aware of the extraordinary multiplicity of human religious experience. The "message" is that we all share a common humanity, and many faiths over the millennia have contributed insight into the potential of the human spirit. This might be thought of as a tough project, to create such an environment without its becoming vacuous, which the existing altar can certainly be accused of. But this is an essential exercise. If the decision is made to replace the existing kirche, I'll be happy to help with this problem.

Anyway... I've visited the new model, and it is quite extraordinary. I have a number of minor suggestions... I'll communicate those to Rosie privately. But the substance of this post is of real importance to our community.

Sudane...............................

[Moonrise Azalee]

I'm new to the Forums, but have recently made acquaintance with a few of you
I think the new Church is lovely. I can understand the need for less Prims and a smoother rez (i am primarily on a laptop and boy oh boy, prims are not my friend haha)
I also understand having attachments to 'sacred' spaces that transcend any one particular path, just spirituality in general.
Maybe keeping an element from the original and working it into the new build is possible. Often when in RL it is time for a building of sentimental value to be replaced, something is kept. Could be an option.
I was raised Jewish, and then spent many years as Roman Catholic. I have studied Christianity, the history and contemporary for the past few years. Currently I work for an Anglican church, though I do not consider myself Christian.
My only thought would that the Crucifixion imagery might not lend well to a non-denominational feel. In the Anglican church for example, we have a cross, but there is no crucifixion on it because focus is on the fact that he resurrected and not that he died (I had no idea, just learned that last week, LOL)
Incoporating some multifaith symbols might be a nice way of keeping any one, certain denomination from seeming to play the main role.
All that said... I love it! I really do. I love that one can wander about, and explore. Like in a real church. The quality is beautiful, and it rezzes very well for me.
You are ABSOLUTELY fantastically talented Rosie!

[Anna Toussaint]

Let me say at the start that I adore Rosie's church, and would have no problem with it replacing the present one as is ... crucifix and all. Like Sudane, I have a "special" relationship with churches ... I am an ordained Presbyterian (USA) minister, among other things, though I have given up pastoring churches -- not for Lent, but for many of the same reasons Sudane cites. I am also Jungian in outlook, but to say that I'm a student of Jung would be stretching it a bit far -- I haven't read enough to claim that.

I do not have the long relationship with the Kirche that Sudane and doubtless others of our community do, though I can certainly understand emotional attachments to places and things. When one has given part of one's life to them, they in a non-trivial sense become part of one.

There is "small" ecumenism between versions of Christianity (e.g., Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Orthodox) and "big" ecumenism between religions (e.g., Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, and etc.) and both flavors are admirable and fascinating. The problem I have is aesthetic, and centers around two points:

1) Rosie's build is a decidedly Christian church, and to add a focal point that is not Christian -- and an altar (or whatever you place at the end of the sanctuary opposite the doors) will be the focal point -- would be aesthetically jarring, and not particularly authentic. See the present cosmic motif for an example.

2) Doing the big ecumenical thing is difficult to do artistically and with integrity. Most spiritual art of any worth is grounded in a particular tradition. Again, see what is behind the altar now as an example. I do not mean to insult anyone, but the cosmic motif seems trivial to me and, well, kind of cheesy. And the fact is that everything other than the galaxy, the star-woman and the Greek philosophers over on the right hand wall IS Christian. This gives Christianity pride of place ... its as if someone threw some "we are one" stuff into a Christian space as a sop to world unity or something.

As I said above, my concerns are purely aesthetic, and I certainly understand and applaud Sudane's sentiment. I hope something can be designed that matches the beauty of what is already there, integrates seamlessly with Rosie's remarkable build, and does not compromise its integrity.

[Aliasi Stonebender]

The church dates from the days of Neualtenburg, and is, indeed, one of the very few things from the original Neualtenburg Project to survive to this day. It's like The Man statue in Natoma (the oldest object continuously existing on the grid; it's been there since SL's beta) in being one of the very few authentic historic 'sites' in the whole of the place.

Now, being old is not in itself a reason to preserve things, and I fully agree; the church is inefficent, even a little ugly by current standards, and quite literally irreplaceable since it's unlikely LL would just hand it over to us so it could be properly archived. (It'd be an interesting question to ask, granted. Anyone with authority want to? I suppose I could, but the SC is supposed to be REactive, not PROactive. )

However, I do not find Rosie's church acceptable. Sudane and Anna have given the views of two Christians who don't much mind it. Anna claims that the design of any such church is so innately Christian asking for other symbols is ridiculous.

I am not Christian. I have never been Christian. The closest I approach to it is I get on well with Unitarian Universalists spiritually, although I don't attend a congregation regularly enough to feel proper in claiming myself as one. I don't mind a church in NFS, I don't mind it having some loosely Christian imagery in the senses inherent to being a church in the first place. After all, Neufreistadt is meant to mimic the kind of Bavarian city seen in a given historical period; these cities were predominantly Christian and had churches. I would feel (and felt) much the same about a Roman style temple in the Roman-themed areas, or a mosque in Al-Andalus (even if we aren't formally the same organization, we're still neighbors!).

I do mind having a great big ornament celebrating the agonizing death by torture of someone having a place front and center. It's a little harsh, but I feel blunt harshness is necessary, here. I find the anti-theist crowd thoroughly annoying and insulting, mind you. You know, the sort of people that like calling Christians "death cultists" or use terms like "oh, you do it because of the invisible sky pixie". THAT sort of behavior can go RIGHT OFF.

At the same time... that Declaration of Human Rights is supposed to be more than pretty words. More than toleration, we're supposed to accept the faiths of others, at least up to the point they become a public nuisance or violate the rights of people who didn't sign up for it. No virgin sacrifice unless they're willing virgins ( ), no making somebody wear a headscarf unless they were wanting to wear one in the first place.

Making the church explicitly a Christian virtual place of worship as opposed to one implicitly built in a similar style to the sorts of places popular with Christianity seems to go way over that line. I'm not Christian and it would make me uncomfortable in ways the current Kirche at least tried to avoid. I'm polite to door-to-door proselytizers in real life; they're performing a moral equivalent of trying to stop someone from walking off a cliff and I value that kind of consideration in other people. It's hardly their fault I disagree that I am walking off such a cliff and in fact, find no cliffs in evidence. (I save my ire for the imposing-their-morality-on-others crowd. Fred Phelps and Westboro Baptist Church can also go right off.)

Perhaps Anna thinks it a sop, but as someone to whom the sop is aimed at I at least appreciate the attempt. I agree the current Kirche is a bit cheesy, but as an example that would work for me - I could accept Rosie's church with the gaudy altarpiece removed and the stained glass windows replaced with abstract designs, for example. It would stay grounded in a Christian aesthetic (medieval Germany, after all) but without adding in an additional "oh, but if you aren't Christian, you really shouldn't be here" dig. (Or even the specific TYPE of Christian - they don't all go for displays of saints and crucifixes, after all!)

(Goodness, it's fortunate in some ways Kendra is no longer with us. The forums would have caught fire by now from this topic. )

Now, please, I don't want anyone, least of all Rosie, to view this as an attack. But in any majority-something community it gets real easy for the majority to get puzzled at why a minority might object to something "normal" because they never had to see it otherwise. Christianity is a majority faith in the Americas and, while without the pervasiveness it once had, still heavily influences European culture. We may be unlikely to get a tidal wave of Japanese Shinto-Buddhists as CDS citizens any time soon, or Muslims, or what not but I would prefer we remain welcoming to them. So please, take this in the cautionary tone it is intended to be in, not a hateful screed.

[FernLeissa]

I would like to see us keep Christian imagery in the Kirche. This makes more sense to me, within the context of a Medieval Bavarian town, then trying to develp some hybrid that recognizes either all or no religions.

I don't see a conflict with a Christian church build, wherein we could have discussions that bring together the ideas of many religions or simply spirituality more generally. I mentioned briefly to Rosie last night, that the National Cathedral in Wash DC regularly sponsors cross-religious discussions and services in a church that is built in the Gothic style. http://www.nationalcathedral.org/learn/ ... 0019.shtml. I believe I remember seeing sculptures, mosaics or inscriptions within the cathedral that belonged to other non-Christian religious traditions. I'll try to check that out. Also, I know that quite a large number of Buddhist meditation classes in the DC area are held in Christian churches. No one I know who attends these sessions seems to have a problem with this inconsistency of religion.

Sudane made a point that I hope doesn't get buried in the discussions about iconograpy, namely, that a central thing that was important for her about the old church were the discussions about sprirituality that took place there. Not only do we need to renovate/replace some of our old builds, but also, we need to re-enliven them with a purpose and a use. If pp are interested in discussing spirituality or different religions (and how we can all live together under those different religions) then we need to try and get that going as well

Fern

[Moonrise Azalee]

Although, as I said above, I myself am not in favour of the crucifixion imagery (and many Christian denominations themselves are not), I do agree that the current church does not blend in well with the Medieval Bavarain theme. There is in fact a lovely image here: of a medieval church in Bavaria. The largest size image shows the altar area quite well, which it appears that the focus is on resurrection and not crucifixion. That in itself is a bit more cross-denominational, or 'gentler' in area of Christian imagery. (my Jewish upbringing cringes at it a wee bit I must admit, lol)

One of the first things that struck me when i came to NFS, was the current church. I was surprised that there was a Wiccan/Pagan Spiral Goddess image on the front. I thought it was a Wiccan center. I did not in fact realize it was a church until I went inside. I did, honestly, feel that it seemed a bit out of place amongst the rest of the builds. I think the new build looks much more appropriate.

Perhaps NFS needs to have a bit of a spiritual center or space for such discussions in an open area. Maybe this area could contain an element from the original build, or a feel of it somehow. Even if it is just seating around an altar in a park area or something? The other sims have different areas for public discussions/events. NFS has the center area, but it is not as conducive to the sorts of discussions that Sudane mentioned she enjoyed so much.

The new Church can stand as being what one would actually find in a medieval Bavarian city. Maybe with the less prims that it uses something else could be put in a little space somewhere to promote more interfaith discussions, or expand and spruce up the little park area a bit more.

[Rosie Gray]

I think that removing the specific aesthetic of the Roman Catholic altar from the church would remove the most obvious declaration of what this building is, that which places it in its Bavarian roots. Almost 70% of Bavaria is considered to be Roman Catholic, so this is very much within the stated theme of the NFS sim.

As a traveller in the real world and the virtual, one of the most interesting things in another country is the religious buildings and their iconography. When I go to a Japanese sim, a Shinto shrine is beautiful and 'right' there, a Muslim mosque is the perfect centrepiece for an Arabic city and what is more fascinating than a Hindu shrine somewhere in India? When visiting other countries in the real world, historical places of worship are always on my list of places to see; I delight in the specifics of a culture, and their religious symbols are a big part of that. I say all of this as an atheist who nonetheless appreciates the beauty and history of the rituals and cultural heritage that the best of all religions have to offer. (I'll not get into the other side of that equation at this time.)

In my real life, I have a cousin who is a Carmelite sister - she also practices what I, from my skeptical viewpoint, see as new-age/Buddhist/what-have-you. She obviously sees no conflict with this. I have other family members that include a Baptist minister and a Pentecostal minister and I was raised as a Nazarene, so have had plenty of different Christian influences.

Why not have as suggested some symbols associated with other religions and humanism in the church as well? Sorry but I just don't see the point in watering down everything so that it becomes nothing in particular.

See what an interesting discussion this has already spawned .

[Moonrise Azalee]

Well, a few things that come to mind for me.
First of all, I thought it was a non-denominational church, so I of course suggested removing the purely Christian imagery, or adding imagery of other paths as well.
Seeing however that it is not a non-denominational church, and is instead a more accurate representation of a medieval church for our medieval Bavarian theme, then yes, this works well. It is very beautiful Rosie, and you have alot of talent.
One thing though, Id like to stress is that a crucified Christ was not found in churches until the 10th century. Having this particular imagery was not the norm until later years. Embossed gold crosses, yes... images of paradise, yes, all of that. But the first image of Christ on the cross was not created until about 970ad, and was in fact, created in Germany
So, keeping the beautiful images you have created, and the lovely decor, would be more in line with a medieval RC church than the crucified Christ.
It is what it is, for sure. And truly yes, having the mixture of different faiths in a church that looks very much like The Regensburg Cathedral would detract from the beauty itself. The Roman areas have their Roman/Pagan theme. It makes sense , that if this church is going to be one particular denomination, it would be Roman Catholic. But the imagery could be altered to disinclude the crucifixion and possibly be even truer to its dating.
here is more information about the crucifixion imagery, as well as information about what sorts of decor and imagery were actually found in churches for the first 1000 years. It's very interesting: http://www.uuworld.org/ideas/articles/107992.shtml

[Rosie Gray]

Interesting about the crucifix imagery Moonrise, I hadn't realized the switch in emphasis. I guess my version of the medieval church would fit into the later half - more like the 14th or 15th centuries or 'late middle ages'.

I actually got the altar image from the Rothenburg Church, which is Lutheran, so I've really mixed the denominations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._James% ... der_Tauber The reason I picked it was because I thought the altar was very striking, I thought I could actually do a half-decent reproduction of it because I found some very high quality images, and it was from an actual Bavarian church.

Here's the inspiration for the architecture of the church otherwise: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Germa ... church.jpg

I'm certainly open to creating a less graphic altar if someone could point me at some good images, but they would need to be high enough resolution that I can work with them.

There's another inconsistency in the church as well - the stained glass in the nave is all Victorian era, so Moon (that's Moon Adamant for you Moonrise!) tells me, that I used simply again for its aesthetic quality and because I found good enough photos. The darker stained glass in the little side chapel are from Chartres Cathedral, and the one overhead of the main entrance, so are really more accurate for the time.

Pip and I had a good conversation while I was building this church about how very old buildings have things added, and replaced in them. Churches have been known to have their stained glass replaced for one reason or another, which is why I thought it okay to used the Victorian ones.

Another thought that had crossed my mind about the church; we could have it more as a recreation centre or theatre and not as a church at all. Again, that has happened to lots of old churches as their congregations have decreased. We could take out the altar and put in a stage for performances with theatrical lighting etc.

[Guillaume Mistwalker]

Hello, all!

I've skimmed over everyone else's words, so I'm sorry if I've missed anything I should take note of directly.

I find the idea of renewing the Kirche a good one. The mastery of the work and its historical and realistic value will surely make it an interesting addition to Neufreistadt. One topic I've noticed is the idea of being inclusive to all religions. I think a fair solution would be to include either altars or recreate the altar to include major religions. I feel that keeping Christ as the centre piece would be more realistic, however, and I hope that Christ is left in the centre, as he would be in the real Kirche. Of course, we could include major religions on the panels of the doors to the altar. Seeing as there are 8 panels, we could have Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and the bottom 4 panels could have such religions as Paganism (including Wicca), Shinto, Confucianism and Baha`i. Of course, we would need someone to be open to making such panels.

Despite the altar, we could include flags in the Kirche, as they do in some churches and halls. Despite this, we can also include icons and paintings of major religious deities and prophets. Despite this, I completely love Rosie's Kirche! It's realistic and will be useful. I hope that we can use the Kirche in the future to have a renewed cross-religious discussion, just as Gwyn had before.

Promise to get back into the swing of things, too! Cheers!

-- Guillaume.

[Moonrise Azalee]

Hmm.

Well, I have to go look at it again. I wonder, instead of the actual crucified Christ icon, could we not have a golden Cross, or something like that? Here is an image of stained glass, and a non-crucifixion altar in an Episcopal church. Still keeps Christianity as central theme, minus the icon of tortured Jesus.

The crucifix didn't actually start to become common place until the 14th century, so omitting that actual piece would not be out of line really.( Easy for me to say, because Im not the one who has to find the images etc.)

I think different motives in the different panels is a nice idea. Even if it's a Star of David in one, Yin and Yang in another.
Or maybe simply a co-exist banner like this? http://randomviewpoints.wordpress.com/2 ... 7/coexist/ hanging on the outside? They can be quite lovely, and could show that it is inclusive. After all, Jesus kept company with gentiles, tax collectors and prostitutes. He was a pretty accepting guy.

Or, what about a clickable altar? a touch button somewhere that can change it to a plain altar with candles and flowers, that can be used for non-Christian services?

I still hold though Rosie that it is beautifully done and I thoroughly enjoyed exploring it!

[Aliasi Stonebender]

Something to alter the interior decor wouldn't be a bad idea. I've long used such scripting on my parcel with a commonly available "holodeck" system, but there's free/low cost solutions around as well. (Well, that or I could just set up the extra system I own, I suppose, but it's probably better if Rudeen 'owns' it.)

In this way we could have a historically-accurate Christian interior. Click a button and it becomes a theatre, a plainly-decorated meeting room, or anything else that might be handy. Quite aside from pleasing people, that adds utility and encourages it to become a place actually used by the community!