Reply to Soro's post under the SC Announcements

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Trebor Warcliffe
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Reply to Soro's post under the SC Announcements

Post by Trebor Warcliffe »

Not being a member of the Scientific Council I was unable to reply to Soro's latest posting under the Declaration for Candidacy thread in that section so I post it here.

Soro,

With all due respect for your position as Dean of the Scientific Council, where have you been since November 4th and do you check your email? Allow me to update you on the situation as of the evening of November 10, 2011.

The SC has not been asked to call a meeting for resolution of some issues regarding constitutional waivers for the election. An email thread was started by Sudane on November 4th bringing attention to the possibility of the CDS having issues about who is eligible to vote and run for office. This email was addressed to myself, Tor, Arria, you, Delia, and Aliasi. This email thread started on the 4th and finished on the 8th with a total of 28 emails sent back and forth. You didn’t contribute to any of those 28 emails even though you were asked questions directly and questions were asked to the SC in general.

On November 8, 2011 at 5:15 PM Arria Perreault, the current LRA of the Representative Assembly addressed the 28th email to you. In this email she explains to you that the RA held a vote on three proposals:

“The RA votes a waiver to allow all declared candidates to run, including the candidates who are not in compliance with Article IV, Section 3. This waiver is valid for this election only.

The RA votes a waiver to move the election dates. The voting will start on November 19 and will conclude on November 26.

The RA sets a committee of three members who will be in charge to organize the campaigning posters and events, as the current Chancellor and the current PIO are running for a RA seat.The members of this committee are Pip Torok, Fern Leissa and Sonja Strom.”

She further states in this email addressed to you:

“The RA has accepted the three proposals (4 times aye for each on 4 votes).
Pip has said that he would like to get the relevant permission to help with the signs.
Now the SC should make a communication about the elections. Fern and Pip are ready to help with the campaign. They should be informed about their tasks.”

So as you can see no meeting of the SC has been asked for. The issue has been resolved and the citizens of the CDS need to be made aware that elections will not begin on Saturday November 12th but will actually begin on the 19th of November.

Also I don’t understand why you have difficulty accessing a website that is open to the public. Here are the links for the web portal and the page that houses our Constitution and the page that also houses our Code of Laws.

http://portal.slcds.info/index.php/cds- ... stitution/

http://portal.slcds.info/index.php/cds- ... e-of-laws/

We have taken an awesome opportunity to highlight what the CDS is all about, its democracy, and flushed it down the toilet with this fiasco. Personally I hold the Scientific Council responsible for the mess and I hope they will step up immediately and make the best of a bad situation. I bring to your attention the Constitution of the CDS and more specifically the role of the Scientific Council.

Section 1 – The Scientific Council

The Scientific Council (SC) is a self-selected meritocracy. Its governmental role is to interpret and enforce the constitution. Its service roll (ed. note: sic) is to resolve citizen disputes and moderate user forums and events.

Soro, you allowed a citizen, granted a well intentioned citizen, to post an official government announcement on the forums. To make matters worse this posting contained incorrect information and it clearly states in the Constitution the SC is responsible for moderating the forums. The only instance I am aware of that the “28 days of citizenship” was brought to anyone’s attention was at the final RA meeting by our current Chancellor, Tor Karlsvalt. This should have never happened Soro.

The SC is also tasked with moderating CDS events and I have to ask you what event is more important to the CDS than its twice a year elections. When the deadline for declaring candidacy was met at 11:59 PM SLT on November 5th 2011 we had 12 citizens standing for 7 RA seats and 2 citizens running for Chancellor. Leaving the eligibility fiasco out of this discussion nothing had been planned or set in place by the SC in reference to the elections and campaigning. 14 people volunteering to fill 9 positions and no debates scheduled, no meet the candidate sessions scheduled, no notices in regards to signage, absolutely nothing done to make this election as significant as it could be. What an opportunity to post notices via Second Life Events Calendar.

“Come watch democracy in action in Second Life. The Confederation of Democratic Simulators, one of the oldest democratically ran communities in SL is beginning their campaign season.”

Obviously an ad a little more exciting than this could be done up but you get my point. For your benefit and the benefit of all our citizens I’m going to post here my suggestion that I wrote in the emails concerning the fiasco.

Here are the applicable paragraphs from my original email:

In regards to the dates for campaigning and elections I offer the following suggestion. Currently we are almost 24 hours into campaigning on our current schedule and absolutely nothing has been accomplished. There has been no announcement to the candidates to submit their campaign statement and picture to the PIO to be placed in the campaign kiosks we have used for at least the last two elections that I can remember. There has been absolutely no discussion about hosting either “Meet the Candidate” get-togethers or debates. We have 12 candidates running for 7 RA seats and 2 candidates for Chancellor. Of these 14 candidates I believe 5 of them have no prior experience in the CDS. What does it say to them and all these other new citizens who have joined our community when our main claim to fame, our democracy and the holding of elections, has turned into a total unorganized fiasco? We as a community need to do some serious scrambling to get all these issues addressed as soon as possible.

With this amount of people running for office allowing only one week to campaign, especially considering we’ve already wasted an entire day and nothing is planned for Monday either, is not fair to the candidates or the citizens. I suggest we push the opening of the polls to Saturday, November 19th. We allow campaigning to continue from here on in. This will give the candidates 10 weekdays and a complete Saturday and Sunday in order to give their campaigns the time needed. I understand the polls would be open the same week as the Thanksgiving holiday in the U.S. but let’s be honest it doesn’t take that long for an individual to log in-world and cast their votes.

With 14 candidates I think it is going to be nearly impossible with everyone’s varied schedules to attend an in-world event at the same time let alone all the citizens who also want to attend. We need a few of our long-term citizens to take the ball on this situation and help us out. Calli, Sonja, Fern, Lillith, Rose, and Pip are a few people who immediately pop into my head.

In order to schedule debates we need to know what days and times each candidate would be available. I think best case scenario we host 3 debates. 6 RA candidates at one debate, 6 RA candidates at the second debate, and a third debate for the Chancellor candidates. Work up one set of general questions; say 3 to 5, which will be given to the candidates in advance of their debate. The questions would be the same for everyone. Next you allow all citizens, whether they’re running for office or not, the opportunity to submit, say two questions to each candidate. The questions are anonymous; the identity of the citizen submitting the question is not disclosed. Also citizen questions are not provided to the candidates before the debate. These are the questions they have to think on their toes about and we limit the response to either 3 or 5 minutes. All debates are recorded and transcribed to the forums that way those unable to attend can study up on the candidates and ask additional questions through the forum if they feel so inclined.

This would also be an ideal time to advertise these events on the Second Life events calendar. Even though non-citizens aren’t able to vote, what better way to showcase our democracy than allowing them to observe. I also would like to see if we could host some type of “Meet the Candidate” gatherings. I’d encourage these are held at a public venue such as the biergarten and they not be hosted by the candidates. These could be scheduled throughout the campaign session on an individual basis.

I am running for Chancellor therefore I am unable to take the ball and run with these ideas. I encourage those who feel so dearly for our community and who aren’t running for office to take care of this. This is a great opportunity to turn a bad set of circumstances into a spectacular turn-around.

In closing it would probably be a good idea to make a posting in this forum explaining to all the citizens what has actually transpired and the issue that needed to be addressed. For those unaware the waiver passed by the RA allowed Shep Titian, Cacilia McMasters, Vespasian Cortes, and Kim Rongu to stand for office even though they didn’t meet the 28 day citizenship requirement. The waiver also allows any individual who was a citizen as of November 3rd the ability to vote when in reality the cut-off point should have been the 28 day citizenship requirement mentioned earlier.

Let us move away from all of the "us" and "them" and turn our attention to "we."
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Re: Reply to Soro's post under the SC Announcements

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Wow. I wasn't aware that the RA had decided to suspend parts of the Constitution for these elections. Thanks for bringing attention to this Trebor.

So what's the point in having a Constitutional safeguard to prevent "packing the ballot" with temporary additional citizens to boost your clique's chances of getting elected if the RA is able to simply ignore this at will? What is the point in requiring people running for office to have been here longer than five minutes if the RA simply dismisses this with an airy wave of the hand?

The SC needs to meet and decide on the constitutional validity of the RAs decision ASAP. If no one has challenged this as yet I would like to challenge it now. I think the RA decision is unconstitutional and I would like the SC to rule on this before the election is held.

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Re: Reply to Soro's post under the SC Announcements

Post by Sudane Erato »

Patroklus Murakami wrote:

Wow. I wasn't aware that the RA had decided to suspend parts of the Constitution for these elections. Thanks for bringing attention to this Trebor.

So what's the point in having a Constitutional safeguard to prevent "packing the ballot" with temporary additional citizens to boost your clique's chances of getting elected if the RA is able to simply ignore this at will? What is the point in requiring people running for office to have been here longer than five minutes if the RA simply dismisses this with an airy wave of the hand?

The SC needs to meet and decide on the constitutional validity of the RAs decision ASAP. If no one has challenged this as yet I would like to challenge it now. I think the RA decision is unconstitutional and I would like the SC to rule on this before the election is held.

Pat,

This "fiasco" happened because Rose posted the following notice: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 537#p18014 and everyone, myself included, assumed that this information was correct and complete. Based on that info, many new citizens apparently joined the CDS hoping to "participate in democracy". Those of us already here, operating under the mistaken impression that the info in the post was correct and complete, did nothing to change that expectation.

When the omission was discovered, which was literally after the date for candidacies was past, we found ourselves faced with either disqualifying those many new residents, both from candidacy and voting, or modifying the election schedule.

If, on the other hand, the original post had included the fact that 28 days residency was a qualification for candidacy and for voting, there would be no issue. Everyone would be aware of the ground rules. Since no one, yourself included, acted to correct the omission, I think the only fair course has been taken.

Sudane.........................

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Re: Reply to Soro's post under the SC Announcements

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Sudane

I don't agree. Rose is not responsible for getting every fact right and posting all relevant info, that's the SCs job in relation to elections. I think she made her post in order to remind us that the elections were looming.

I don't doubt that people joined the CDS in good faith thinking they could stand for election but they were mistaken (if not misled). We have a 28 day residency rule for a reason and removing it should be for good reasons not "someone forgot to tell you that so lets not bother". The new residents who joined after the cut off date must be disqualified from candidacy and voting. I don't know if the sudden influx was genuine or part of a plan to "pack the ballot" just before the elections but we need to uphold the constitutional requirement put in place as a safeguard. I'm disappointed that the RA didn't see this but at least thecSC is there to safeguard the constitution. It must act.

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Re: Reply to Soro's post under the SC Announcements

Post by Rose Springvale »

This "fiasco" happened because Rose posted the following notice: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3537#p18014 and everyone, myself included, assumed that this information was correct and complete.

Oh for pete's sake. You all have been here long enough to know the rules. I don't have any responsibility at all in CDS, and anyone who relied on that post instead of reading the constitution has no business serving in government anyway. Really, what b.s.

I find myself in the awkward position of agreeing with Pat on this. I don't see any reason for the rules to be waived. There have been millions of posts on these forums that are inaccurate, and i'm the first to tell everyone, READ THE LAW. I posted that information because frankly, i get really tired of EVERY election in CDS being postponed, dates changed, rules changed, because the time sneaks up on people. NOT to be considered some sort of authority when people charged with applying our laws, who have MUCH more experience than i do, use it to circumvent the rules of the CDS.
Furthermore, the post was made on October 7.. LOTS of time to check dates and have no issues.

If people want to serve CDS, there are many civil service jobs where new citizens can participate and actually LEARN something about the community before they stage a coup. Let them start there.

Democracy is the rule of law, not the rule of "rose said it so it must be so." Do your JOBS!

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Re: Reply to Soro's post under the SC Announcements

Post by Trebor Warcliffe »

Pat,

While I agree with you that a mistake was made and I also agree with you that we don't know if the sudden influx is genuine or part of a plan to "pack the ballot" just before the elections, all citizens were led to believe that if they were a citizen by November 3rd than they had the ability to not only vote but to also run for office. This mistake was discovered "after the fact" meaning after the deadline had passed. I for one would like to give these new candidates the benefit of the doubt and believe that their intentions are pure and for the benefit of the CDS.

I understand the significance and importance of our Constitution and our Code of Laws but at the same time I also believe that when you make a mistake you do what you can to rectify that mistake. I can't speak for anyone but myself and I am not an RA member so I didn't vote on the waiver with its three proposals but I will give you my reasoning for supporting it and to also show you this wasn't a knee jerk reaction. One option discussed was to push back the opening of the polls in order for all those running to become qualified. This would have pushed back the opening to November 24th, a Thursday. The first Saturday after that Thursday would be the 26th. The polls are open for 7 days so they would be closing on December 3rd and the first session of the RA wouldn't take place until the 10th. This action also delays the new Chancellor from starting on thier work.

The waiver gives us a happy medium. The opening of the polls is pushed back one week and allows all concerned citizens the ability to stand for office and vote in this election. It also doesn't sacrifice the time the newly elected officers will be in office.

Trebor

Let us move away from all of the "us" and "them" and turn our attention to "we."
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Re: Reply to Soro's post under the SC Announcements

Post by Callipygian »

Check for four horsemen riding through the sims - I find myself agreeing with Pat also.

The CDS is a democracy, based on a published Constitution. Anyone standing for election in the CDS should, as a minimum, read the Constitution and as a result, be aware of the 28 day residency requirement stated there. As Trebor states in his post and original e-mail:

"Also I don’t understand why you have difficulty accessing a website that is open to the public. Here are the links for the web portal and the page that houses our Constitution and the page that also houses our Code of Laws.

http://portal.slcds.info/index.php/cds- ... stitution/

http://portal.slcds.info/index.php/cds- ... e-of-laws/ "
The Constitution and Code of Laws are accessible to the public, and therefore any potential candidate.

Would it have been better for dates to be corrected, for this information to be posted and any number of other actions taken? Yes. Does the lack of those actions remove the responsibility of candidates to actually do a little research into what they are standing for - I think not. I also find the action of RA, to vote by e-mail on a constitutional change, without allowing citizens the opportunity to hear the reasons and make their feelings known irresponsible at best.

If the Constitution is to be changed anytime 'new people might get disappointed and leave' there is little point to having it. For those new people, eager to become involved, there will be a wealth of opportunity at a time when the sims are full and rebuilding and potential development is happening. If anyone who has been here less than 28 days, has not even read the Constitution, and will take their ball and go home if they don't get to stand in an election leaves, perhaps that is a better result than having them in a position of government over the CDS.

Calli

People often say that, in a democracy, decisions are made by a majority of the people. Of course, that is not true. Decisions are made by a majority of those who make themselves heard and who vote -- a very different thing.

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Re: Reply to Soro's post under the SC Announcements

Post by cleopatraxigalia »

I too thought that rose was correct when she posted the dates initially. Soro did look at it then, he has tons of IMs from people about it from way back weeks ago. And he knows it.

Ceasar and I read it and believed that Rose was certainly correct.. and we saw it as:

the term "election" as being the operative word in the constitution, and the date the new RA is
"elected" is certainly not the date that the polls open,or close, but rather the day that the votes are done being counted, the RA has ratified and sworn in the new RA. So the 28 days that rose counted goes back to that day and is correct. The day the RA is elected to office, is the day they are sworn in.

so yes, citizens should be citzens 28 days before "election", Election as defined by Websters dictionary as the "fact of being elected " which they arent until the day they are duly sworn in.

not before THE election commences..................

there is nothing broken . :) unless you want something to "fix" something :)

so what is the problem?? and if there was a problem, rose is right, why wasnt it brought up before you knew who is running??? there is only one obvious answer here .................

Last edited by cleopatraxigalia on Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Reply to Soro's post under the SC Announcements

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

The 'election' is when the count starts, not when people have been 'elected'.

If that were true, there would be no need for the RA waiver. So it's clearly not the case.

But, the SC could rule on this too if it chooses to.

I've passed a notecard to Soro and the other SC members in world. The text is below:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Soro

I've just learned today that a number of candidates standing for election will not have been citizens for 28 days as per the constitutional requirement. Also, a number of voters will not meet the 28 day residency requirement either but the RA has apparently granted a 'waiver' to allow this to happen.

There is a thread related to this on the forums here:

http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3575

I would like the SC to rule on whether or not this action of the RA is constitutional. While the RA has the right to amend the constitution (subject to getting 2/3rds of more of the representatives to vote for the change) I do not believe it has the right to grant 'waivers' in this ad hoc fashion.

I think we need a ruling from the SC on this before the polls open.

Regards,
Patroklus Murakami

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Re: Reply to Soro's post under the SC Announcements

Post by cleopatraxigalia »

Pat, that is interesting to me. Where did you come up with the definition of : "election" as being when the polls open ?

Was the election of Obama the day the polls opened ? No , and all of the current candidates if they win, WILL be elected no less than 28 days after they became citizens.

if thats true we wouldn't say :
"when the election begins" ever would we?

and when someone is elected would be the day they run for office. ?? no, that is when they run for office, they are "elected" when they are sworn in . The "election" of the new RA is the day they are sworn in and officially made RA members.

and could you make transparent how this ruling will benefit you ?

The new citizens are NOT temporary and they are not vote packers... whatever that means.. some of them actually are referred by Soro, a group of lawyers, some of them are serious builders in SL..some bought land then brought THEIR friends, some came cos they LOVE the idea of democracy cos they moved from CUBA to the usa to live in one rl and like the idea of it here, one running was a friend of Tors for a year, one new citizen has ten sims and wanted a place of respite ( and her partner is also a lawyer in England ) and they thought it would be fun for him. three are artists, some are friends of long time CDS residents in rl .. not me. So, pat, since you are not inworld, and have not met them.. bringing forth judgement .. with things you arent clear on, not good for you or for CDS.
You should be in world meeting them and telling them why you should be an RA member.
Not trying to push them out of participation .

Last edited by cleopatraxigalia on Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reply to Soro's post under the SC Announcements

Post by Sudane Erato »

I'm confused about talk of a waiver here. It was my original thought when the error was uncovered that we simply push back the date of the election so that all persons who expected to participate would indeed be qualified voting citizens by our normal rules. This is what I suggested. Is the date of the elections itself a constitutional issue? I seem to remember that it has been changed in the past. I thought that's what was done?

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Re: Reply to Soro's post under the SC Announcements

Post by cleopatraxigalia »

We do need to follow our constitution, but personally I do not think there is even a need for a waiver.

the constitution says a person has to be a citizen 28 days before their election to office

the word election refers back to the person, .. which means that is the day they are elected... NOT the day that the election process begins or it would have been written.........
28 days before the start of any election process.. or the day the polls open, which it doesnt say

"election" here, is the act of being elected which happens the day the votes are counted and they are sworn in.

so in fact , there is no error , we dont need to fix it

i am using a webster dictionary definition of election.. which is
b: the fact of being elected <her election to the Senate>

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Re: Reply to Soro's post under the SC Announcements

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

From Webster's:

  • Election
    1
    a : an act or process of electing <the election of a new governor>

which clearly refers to the polling process. Hoist by your own petard cleo/tpp :)

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Re: Reply to Soro's post under the SC Announcements

Post by cleopatraxigalia »

there is more than one definition in websters pat, you are correct, and i believe the word election in the constitution clearly refers to when a person is elected, not the process.

b: the fact of being elected <her election to the Senate>

its refereing to the person who is elected. the SC might have made a mistake.. it is possible

you are certainly right "election" can refer to a process sometimes but that isnt what this sentance says.. it is talking about being a citizen 28 days before they are "elected "

It is slightly possible that the RA voting on a waiver was in error also, it doesn't prove that they were correct in doing so.

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Re: Reply to Soro's post under the SC Announcements

Post by cleopatraxigalia »

We posted a notecard now to Soro requesting an interpretation of the constitution.

28 days before a persons election to office

not the opening of the polls.

tpp if you wish pat :)

btw i am supporting your run for RA

Cleo
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