Trebor Warcliffe Revised Budget Proposal

[Bromo Ivory]

HI Bells -

I agree that there is a tendancy on these forums to "pile it on" all the while complaining right afterwards about the lack of decorum. It is a "CDS" disease the way I see it - but also can be our strength in airing our feelings and positions pretty openly. We also LOVE to second guess each other's motives, don't let it drive you nuts, it's what CDS does!

I think you added a lot - and have a lot to offer CDS.

I have been a layabout since my brief foray into CDS politics (you remember, I bet!) I have been a layabout paying tier and buying and selling plots in CDS over and over. I plan on helping out CDS in the coming terms in ways I can be. I'll let the political wonks take the heat

[Cindy Ecksol]

THE TRUTH COMES OUT

FIVE K FOR A DJ!!!!! no .. no.. Ten k for DJ services in two months.

That is great ! The most expensive DJ I know of , charges 1k an hour.. Many work for tips only, and the averge price when I hire them is about $500L an hour.

Nice work Callipyan Christensen.

Thank you Cleo, my sets are 'nice work', a reason people hire me I believe. I will make no apologies for the rates I charge for my work, just as I am sure you make none for what you charge for your creations. As for 'the most expensive' or relative cost you will find that DJs providing services in CDS have been paid varying rates both above and below that, as have live performers. We've even paid 5K or thereabouts to someone to come and hostess at events.

If my being paid comparable rates to others we hire to perform services is a problem for you, I am not sure how we will establish a fair payment for the professionals you have suggested we hire in various threads.

I've been hired to DJ here in CDS by at least 2, possibly 3, different chancellors and a number of private citizens for special events, and to give you some transparency, I give citizens holding private events a discount since they are providing events in CDS and paying out of their own pockets. Like any other consumers, they all had the option of not hiring me, since, as you point out there are many other DJs out there. I am sure they will appreciate a list of the ones you use as a resource.

Calli

I agree. Calli does a good job, and she deserves the pay she receives. As a performer, I've done some gigs for CDS (and many in other places), and $5K is the going rate for a one-hour performance. What Calli does is no less skillful or professional than what I do, so I can't imagine why we'd pay her less than we pay other performers.

Cindy

[cleopatraxigalia]

Cindy you are right ! Live musicians do typically get in the thousands of lindens, five k is typical.. You know, I was under the impression Calli was a DJ , not a live performer like you.

Clearly live musicians and DJ's are usually paid a different rate.

Please excuse my ignorance.

[Rosie Gray]

When it comes to paying for entertainment, rates are what the market will bear. There are many and varied levels of skill for live performers, musicians, and for DJ's in RL and in SL, so you can't make blanket statements about how much their pay should be.

In my view, Calli as a DJ adds a great deal to the musical experience, not only because of her excellent collection of music, but because of the knowledge she brings to the subject, and the delivery of her dialogue. I haven't had the pleasure of hearing Cindy perform, but from what I've heard from others she is a skilled professional with a lovely voice and interesting repertoire.

Thanks to both of these women for making SL a more enjoyable experience.

[Anna Toussaint]

As one who has written, administered and adhered to budgets in RL of all kinds of organizations, both for- and non-profit, I can say that you cannot anticipate the costs for something like a festival ahead of time. For a piece of equipment, yes; for a festival no. Budgets for those kinds of activities are perforce estimates.

What I find particularly distasteful is the implication that Trebor is somehow engaged in shady activities by proposing a budget category where everything is not spelled out ahead of time. It is JUST A BUDGET, people, not a promise to spend, nor does it place money in Trebor's pocket. If the amount allocated for a budget item isn't all spent, it remains in the budget ... no harm, no foul.

I also find it odious that some have questioned stipends for executive positions in such a way that implies that folks who had them are somehow wasting or misusing public funds. Note that I didn't say I find questioning stipends odious, that is a legitimate argument, and worthy of debate. I find obnoxious and unproductive in the extreme the manner in which it is done, the nastiness and the sneering innuendo. (For the record, I will argue in the RA that we restore those stipends, and introduce a bill that includes one for chancellor as well.)

Finally, 3 - 10K for talent per event is standard in SL, and as one who assisted in the planning and execution of three Oktoberfests and one Floralia, I am of the opinion that the budgets for these festivals are far too low.

Anna

[Rosie Gray]

A little more about planning and executing events:

In rl part of my work involves developing budgets for events, planning the event, hiring entertainment and enticing volunteers to help out. There are people that I have to answer to that do not understand any of the logistics of handling a large event and have grandiose ideas of how to make wonderful successful events on just about no money, and they erroneously think that events, and I quote "just happen". They are wrong.

When an event comes together successfully it is because of the experience and time spent of a coordinator that knows what is required, what to anticipate, has the contacts and good will of entertainers and suppliers, knows how to market it, is capable of excellent time management and organization, is good with people and a great communicator. In addition to this, they make it all look like water off a ducks back.

Volunteers are necessary, and highly valued when it comes to executing events, as they are with any other non-profit endeavour. It takes them and a professional to pull it all together if you are talking about an event that is crucial to the success of a community.

The small amounts of money that we are talking about for events in the CDS budget can be well afforded, and the same can be said for the stipends provided to the 'employee's. Can we stop being so petty that the equivalent of paying someone $0.75 an hour for their expertise is a matter of intense debate? Let's get real folks.

[Patroklus Murakami]

It is legitimate to question how we spend our money as a community. Events and stipends are, to some extent, discretionary expenditure and it's right that thet should be scrutinised. I agree that it is unhelpful to insinuate that there is some kind of sleaze involved when:

People are being as transparent as it is possible to be! Trebor has built on the work of previous Chancellors and set a great example here for future ones. The actual spends are all published and itemised. If no one has raised issues before, shame on you for not bothering to read them.

If people want to spend *more* on events and increase the stipends I'm happy with that too ( though I will vote against) because we get to choose how we spend this money. I just think we should do this following discussion and careful thought. I'm still of the view that events could be privately funded and that there are enough volunteers to run our community without the need for payments. I haven't yet heard an argument which has changed my mind. But I respect the fact that others disagree and that, on the RA, I may need to compromise. Before we need to make a decision we need to agree what that might look like.

[Bromo Ivory]

A little more about planning and executing events:

In rl part of my work involves developing budgets for events, planning the event, hiring entertainment and enticing volunteers to help out. There are people that I have to answer to that do not understand any of the logistics of handling a large event and have grandiose ideas of how to make wonderful successful events on just about no money, and they erroneously think that events, and I quote "just happen". They are wrong.

When an event comes together successfully it is because of the experience and time spent of a coordinator that knows what is required, what to anticipate, has the contacts and good will of entertainers and suppliers, knows how to market it, is capable of excellent time management and organization, is good with people and a great communicator. In addition to this, they make it all look like water off a ducks back.

Volunteers are necessary, and highly valued when it comes to executing events, as they are with any other non-profit endeavour. It takes them and a professional to pull it all together if you are talking about an event that is crucial to the success of a community.

The small amounts of money that we are talking about for events in the CDS budget can be well afforded, and the same can be said for the stipends provided to the 'employee's. Can we stop being so petty that the equivalent of paying someone $0.75 an hour for their expertise is a matter of intense debate? Let's get real folks.

The way I read it was that "Live Performer" rates vs "DJ Rates" were being comfused and got cleared up. Clearly you have done events in RL, and I know Cleopatra has hired DJ's and live performers for events in SL. No one is uninformed here - and they have experiences and I am not sure are begrudging the going rate for these things. Plus questioning and debating the budget in a self governing SIM seems to me to be a legitimate subject of conversation - you imply it is misguided and no scrutiny is required due to your experience in planning RL events (BTW, that impresses me, I know of people who do similar things and from planning to execution and it is a tough thing!) - to which I have to disagree. it is ESPECIALLY the budget that needs this scrutiny regardless of the expenditure since of all the things the CDS is, these are our assets and incomes! It looks like Pat has chimed in with his experience largely agreeing with this sentiment, so I'll stop on this topic now.

But the main reason I am posting here is to draw you attention (Rosie) to your last comment. You had complained about bickering, and such making CDS less than it could be (my words). You are inflaming the situation with that blast - perhaps without knowing it. If I told you to "get real" I am certain you would feel insulted - and I felt it was rather patronizing to me even though I am not directly involved in the conversation, so feel I need to point this out since you were advocating for respectful adulthood rather than juvenile behavior, and to me this felt like it was aiming towards the juvenile from respectful. Just my 2 cents. And I am not sure how to word it without sound like lecturing or patronizing myself, so I'll just put it here for what it is, and hopefully draw your attention to this oversight on your part.

[Bromo Ivory]

If people want to spend *more* on events and increase the stipends I'm happy with that too ( though I will vote against) because we get to choose how we spend this money. I just think we should do this following discussion and careful thought. I'm still of the view that events could be privately funded and that there are enough volunteers to run our community without the need for payments. I haven't yet heard an argument which has changed my mind. But I respect the fact that others disagree and that, on the RA, I may need to compromise. Before we need to make a decision we need to agree what that might look like.

You Libertarian, you!

If your agenda is successful, the events budget will be gone, which opens the way for aspiring politicians to "save" events and have their names all over it. Can you imagine, say, MIchel Manen/CARE funding and hosting Oktoberfest (with his name on it, being a private event) in order to bolster his chances at election or re-election? Then everyone voting him in because they really *like* Oktoberfest? I'd probably start a PAC for CDS just to keep events alive! Can you imagine the RA in a panic passing a few constitutional amenedments or laws forbidding it because of the political fear that they handed a well monied opponent a great opportunity for political leverage. Then attending Floralia or Oktoberfest would be a political act rather than a nonpartisan good time?

So ... in all seriousness, Pat, the events budget can keep these events nonpolitical and uniting - it is in danger of being politicized! And if you place too many restrictions on how people can spend money for these private events, it will scare away all the money, hopes, dreams away from it and it will simply die on the vine.

So, perhaps just scrubbing the civil service roles and real-sizing salaries and eliminating positions would be prudent.... but not a lot more.

But, keep in mind this post is origination in the US where we have let big private monies in to run our campaigns that start (sometimes) years in advance, and where we have declared corporations persons with rights to free speech, and that money itself has been long established as "speech" making very little restraint on wealthy people and corporations pouring buckets of cash into capaign funds, which has made just about everything here politcal acts. I am seeing a well intentioned proposition being the narrow end of the wedge. From a US perspective anyway.

[Trebor Warcliffe]

As much as I'd like to delete this post and pretend I never made it I can't. But I have apologized in another post for letting my frustration getting the best of me and hitting the submit button before I should have.

Pat,

Here is the involvement of volunteers. I called for volunteers to help take pics and gather landmarks for the sims to implement Hippo. Results; no one, not a new citizen or an old citizen volunteered their time to help me. Rosie and I asked for volunteers to make banners for the NFS plats. This went days before it was mentioned again in the forums and we have two citizens who asked for the banners. Unlike previous Chancellors who assigned the civil service postitions, except for the PIO position I have advertised these openings on the forums with a call out to all interested citizens to apply. One citizen stepped up to volunteer for the Commerce Commissioner who politely declined the position. One citizen stepped up for the Covenant Compliance Aide. The Welcoming Committee has attracted two citizens. I also point out that all of these citizens have been in the CDS longer than 18 months not one of them were new citizens. The New Guild advertised for builders to contribute to the Locus Amoenus Catalog Builds and to the best of my knowledge I don't believe anyone has responded to that either. I may be incorrect on that point, we'll know more at 8am SLT when the NG has its first meeting of this term. Also my suggestion of a hippoBOOK for a Merchant's Directory has also gone without any volunteers so far.

So sadly, with or without a stipend, I do not have volunteers knocking down my door.

Trebor

[Pip Torok]

If your agenda is successful, the events budget will be gone, which opens the way for aspiring politicians to "save" events and have their names all over it. Can you imagine, say, MIchel Manen/CARE funding and hosting Oktoberfest (with his name on it, being a private event) in order to bolster his chances at election or re-election? Then everyone voting him in because they really *like* Oktoberfest? I'd probably start a PAC for CDS just to keep events alive! Can you imagine the RA in a panic passing a few constitutional amenedments or laws forbidding it because of the political fear that they handed a well monied opponent a great opportunity for political leverage. Then attending Floralia or Oktoberfest would be a political act rather than a nonpartisan good time?

Bromo, I'm relieved to see you have your tongue very much in cheek ...

You don't really equate our citizenry with 1st Century Roman mobs? So fickle that they had to be constantly placated with Bread and Circuses by early fearful Emperors?

I do hope you don't!

"A pig ate his fill of acorns under an oak tree and then started to root
around the tree. A crow remarked, "You should not do this. If you lay bare
the roots, the tree will wither and die." "Let it die," said the pig. "Who
cares so long as there are acorns?"

-- An Unknown Open University Student

Pip Turk

[Rose Springvale]

So sadly, with or without a stipend, I do not have volunteers knocking down my door.

Thank you Trebor. This is what I've been trying to say all along. Volunteers do not come easily anywhere. And when they are treated the way CDS has been lately, not likely to get a lot of people jumping into the fray. When the value of the time given to CDS becomes as important to the community as the few dollars of salary, then we can say we have a thriving community.

If you all believe that, then send Trebor or Cesar or Anyone Asking for help a note and say yes. Most of those jobs are easy and a lot of fun.

[Patroklus Murakami]

Bromo

I had businesses in mind for event sponsorship rather than politicians. Or individuals who want o contribute. Politicians could do so too, they can already. Manen had deep pockets for much of the time and sponsored a number of political events. Nothing wrong with that. I don't believe our citizens would automatically vote for someone because they sponsored Oktoberfest, I think they're smarter than that. Anyone who tried to 'buy' votes in that way could be punished by voters rather than rewarded.

Trebor

I take your point about volunteering. But let's not forget that people do volunteer for office for example. The forums are not the best place to drum up support, few ppl read them. Best to focus efforts inworld and use group chat, meetings and posters o catch attention. Sorry I I sound terse, typing on an ipad at my mums house!

[Bromo Ivory]

Pip got it.

But the more serious issue is we seem to have an awful lot of people on payroll. And while itself isn't always a bad thing - there are so many people screaming when it is scrutinized, that it makes me think that there are some people who are simply having their tier covered and not doing anything to earn it.

As someone who pays tier and does not receive any sort of subsidy, I am paying them - and as a "tier payer" who has not intention of securing one of these "payola" subsidies himself, I do think there needs to be a call to accoutn of who is paid what, and for what. After all, it is MY tier that pays THEIRs.

Now, as a form of slow protest, I have been de-tiering down to one last 512 plot in AM until this is sorted out. I abandoned the other one this morning. And have been going from one of the biggest landholders in all of CDS down to this because of the finances I have been suspecting but are coming to light now. If I feel there is a cloud over our finances, I certainly can restrain my participation.

This morning I was re-examining the notecards of a number of people who stoiod for election and am starting to become more concerned for the CDS - as we have some cards that seem to propose things that seem downright unwelcoming, and xenophobic. By my eyes anyway. We have stiff armed a number of new citizens by both excluding them with out 33 day qualification for this election, rather than the 28 day once the cycle was underway. But we also seem to want to codify this sort of exclusionist attitude by the mandates people have set for themselves.

I will remind the RA that when you have 7 running for 5 slots - the mandate for an agenda is very very weak.

But at least I can console myself in that I am not subsidizing the insanity nearly to the level I was before. And the new citizens who are contributing their money to this - they will only take so much before we go back to a yellow plague. Be careful.

And Lord help you if you anger Pip ... he IS the largest landholder and tier payer. Unless he's on the receiving end of one of those subsidies, of course ... (Pip - this is a jab at them, not you)

Bromo

I had businesses in mind for event sponsorship rather than politicians. Or individuals who want o contribute. Politicians could do so too, they can already. Manen had deep pockets for much of the time and sponsored a number of political events. Nothing wrong with that. I don't believe our citizens would automatically vote for someone because they sponsored Oktoberfest, I think they're smarter than that. Anyone who tried to 'buy' votes in that way could be punished by voters rather than rewarded.

[Rosie Gray]

I think that a review of salaries and duties, and some kind of reporting system would be a good idea. I too am paying my tier without subsidy (and I don't expect a subsidy), and I don't want to see people receiving salaries for jobs that are either not being done at all or in a cursory manner.

As long as there is some oversight of these CDS jobs though, and they are being done properly, I still maintain that they are work and as such the small stipends attached to them are only tokens, and paying them helps to ensure that the work is taken seriously by the person assigned to it and shows appreciation for that work.