I like my privacy, by the way!

[Bagheera]

I'm a little miffed. More than a little miffed, actually.

According to the CDS laws:

3. Scripts that spy on other residents, record or transmit chat, spy on movement/activities are not permitted with the exception of visitor counters, item givers, statistics collectors, etc., which may be used for commercial purposes within a public, commercial establishment.

If this includes permission for government spying on movements on public land, please tell me now & I'll leave CDS and not come back until this permission is repealed.

If it does NOT, I expect all the visitor trackers owned by government officials, current and prior, to be removed IMMEDIATELY (that includes the little black spot that tracks visitors unannounced at the quay).

This is completely unacceptable.

[Patroklus Murakami]

Perhaps someone could explain what these various trackers do? Then we can decide if they're a problem or not.

[Bagheera]

If we don't know they are there, they don't identify themselves as being there, and there is no compelling reason for them; they are definitely a problem. It is not my government's business to track my whereabouts. I know this may seem quaint now when we are becoming accustomed to real world cameras everywhere tracking our every move, but it is codified in our bylaws and part of the appeal of the CDS is the right to quietly enjoy one's Second Life and expect to have the privacy written in our bylaws.

At least one list is being compiled by a government officer of visitors to public land, their names and when they visit. IF the list doesn't have any demonstrable civic purpose, then the tracker has no business being there. A government should endeavor to be as minimally intrusive as possible. If counts of avatars are required, then a simple counter would suffice. A tracker that lists names and times of when people pass through a certain area seems excessive and intrusive, one that emails the owner whenever someone arrives even more so. Furthermore, no one is being notified they are being tracked, the tracker is intrinsically designed to not be noticeable, and apparently no one knows about it generally.

Just the ONE is problematical alone, but IF there are more them, it further violates one's privacy by giving the government lists of the patterns of citizens' and visitors' movements throughout the sims.

Here is the likely script inside this tracker based on viewing its properties:

http://forums-archive.secondlife.com/15/c2/5860/1.html

[Beathan]

Do we know that there are trackers? If so, where? If so, are the data being kept, and who is keeping those data?

Beathan

[Shep]

Do we know that there are trackers? If so, where? If so, are the data being kept, and who is keeping those data?

Beathan

I'm with Beathan here .. what, where and why? Citizens should NOT be being tracked .

[Bromo Ivory]

I served on the 6th RA, which was 5 years ago - but at that time there were no government trackers to the best of my knowledge. Subject never came up either, and would have been vigorously opposed by the people I served with, I'll bet.

Did you get the owner's name from the object that you found? Is the person a CDS citizen or a government official who owns it?

I only ask because if there are tracking objects you have located - and know they are trackers and not serving some other purpose - tracing the ownership is trivial, as is the removal.

[Bagheera]

I should perhaps lead with the caveat that I am a very private person. I prefer places like Second Life and craigslist, which have solid privacy policies, over Facebook and Twitter, for example.

I have posted the location and linked to the most likely script in the tracker in my posts above.

Someone IM'd me inworld and said they thought trackers were allowed. As I cut'n'pasted from the bylaws above, they are allowed, but only in specific instances - so they are allowed but in a defined, limited capacity, i.e. in commercial parcels for commercial applications.

I know from my own experience, I used to have a visitors log for my shop which I used for very specific purposes - I wanted to know if anyone is coming because I was just starting out. I needed to know names because I want to differentiate between my own time in the shop, friends that stopped by to say hello, group members of my store group, and new customers -- all for the purpose of knowing if my shop had a chance of becoming a going concern or if I just had pretty prims on an empty parcel.

I don't have a tracker anymore because my shop has generated enough overall traffic that I measure my success by actual sales now. However, I've been helping other people grow their own businesses through improving how they show up in search and I am using a tracker at their places for the same reasons - getting from zero to "x". So I know they have legitimate uses.

As a customer, I expect to be tracked by the shopkeeper and I don't mind.

As a CDS citizen, however, I definitely DO mind, especially if the use is not codified but is just someone tracking visitors to certain areas on public lands without any Constitutionally defined reason or oversight.

It is possible the citizenry decides they WANT to track avatars, perhaps thinking they want to do a follow-up IM, and if people want that, it should be put to a vote and made public. That is something I would vote against as I'm the kind of person who wants to check a place out and then, if I'm interested, go find someone to talk to. We already have an that kind of system set up, with the touch-notecards at the Info Hubs. I would find a CDS representative IM'ing me just because I visited the sim really creepy. But that's just me.

[Bromo Ivory]

IN any event, I am not sure CDS has given permission to itself to track its people specifically. I am pretty sure the Chancellor would know if any are in place officially. And could remove any, too.

It is possible the citizenry decides they WANT to track avatars, perhaps thinking they want to do a follow-up IM, and if people want that, it should be put to a vote and made public. That is something I would vote against as I'm the kind of person who wants to check a place out and then, if I'm interested, go find someone to talk to. We already have an that kind of system set up, with the touch-notecards at the Info Hubs. I would find a CDS representative IM'ing me just because I visited the sim really creepy. But that's just me.

[Beathan]

I have reviewed your posts and I don't see specific location information. I am tired and might be missing it, but I am not seeing it.

In any case, I don't think that such a tracker is a good idea and I am having trouble seeing how it is allowed under our current Code.

Beathan

[Sonja Strom]

This same issue came up (at least) once before, in regard to the Marktplatz in Neufreistadt. I think it was about two years ago. There were questions in the community about how many visitors we were having there. At that time we talked about the government putting in a visitor counter, but decided against it because of the "no spying scripts" issue and the CDS laws and covenants that are based upon it.

I have tried to find references to that here in the CDS Forum and have not found any, but I distinctly remember that decision.

Perhaps it could be of interest that for this same reason, and partly because of that decision, Arosa also does not have a visitor counter.

As Bagheera cited in her original post, the General CDS Covenants (to be found here: http://portal.slcds.info/index.php/cds- ... -convenant)
say under "SCRIPTS AND PARTICLES":
"3. Scripts that spy on other residents, record or transmit chat, spy on movement/activities are not permitted with the exception of visitor counters, item givers, statistics collectors, etc., which may be used for commercial purposes within a public, commercial establishment."

This section seems to allow some scripts that collect statistics and count visitors (although it does not specifically allow the government to do that) - but I agree with Bagheera: collecting and saving names and then tracking their movements goes to far. Let's leave the State Security methods to other communities and not introduce them into our own little democratic republic.

[Bromo Ivory]

I went the the Quay in LA and found the visitr tracker. It IS a visitor tracker - a Linden freebie that makes a list of everyone present and sends the list to the owner. It has an owner, too, listed who was a government official in the last year.

I was able to return it (I still have a membership in the Land group in CDS) to the owner as I figure it is more important that the ongoing damage is gone. I did it without Trebor's permission, so I ask for forgiveness, and was acting on the best interests of the citizenry as a private individual who is trying to stop a harm as it continues to go on.

So ... overstepped my bounds in returning it? Maybe. I don't regret it, strangely, as I felt rather strongly that this was wrong.

[Beathan]

Bromo,

I think you will have broad support on this and did not overstep your bounds. If you have land rights, then you have been empowered with the ability to return offensive objects -- and that is just what you did here.

Beathan

[Aliasi Stonebender]

Yes, I would guess it was not an officially sanctioned action. Removing it was probably the easiest and best option there!

Granted, I find the specific concern about privacy in this context a little amusing: you don't get rights that broad in most real-life democracies which hold having your image caught on a public camera - for traffic intersections, for example - is perfectly all right. Every single SL user has the ability to track everyone in a sim by simple virtue of how the software works. It's a bit like people who are frantic about having elaborately cryptic passwords, yet leave their wifi router wide open. Or fret about people finding their IP address when everything you visit on the internet is going to know your IP for much the same reason someone needs to know your mailing address to send you a package. Security theatre, not security.

There's very little that freebie tracker can say except... you were in that location at that time. Which is an amazing surprise, given you're a CDS citizen. Truly, I would never expect a citizen to be in a CDS sim!

(I hasten to add, though, the law is still the law and the removal was appropriate. It's just another example of inappropriately applying meatspace concerns to the virtual realm and we've had quite enough trouble from those at this point in our history, no?)

[Bromo Ivory]

Yes, I would guess it was not an officially sanctioned action. Removing it was probably the easiest and best option there!

Thanks - I felt it was the best thing. I had a conversation with the owner last night - and they told me that they had never got it working properly in the first place and had forgotten it had been placed. And it wasn't hidden which is why Bagheera may have spotted it so easily. Such as it is with freebies - usually embodying a great idea, but not quite finished in many cases. The script in the object was nomod, so I actually had to ask them what it was supposed to do.

Granted, I find the specific concern about privacy in this context a little amusing: you don't get rights that broad in most real-life democracies which hold having your image caught on a public camera - for traffic intersections, for example - is perfectly all right. Every single SL user has the ability to track everyone in a sim by simple virtue of how the software works. It's a bit like people who are frantic about having elaborately cryptic passwords, yet leave their wifi router wide open. Or fret about people finding their IP address when everything you visit on the internet is going to know your IP for much the same reason someone needs to know your mailing address to send you a package. Security theatre, not security.

While I do agree that Bagheera's concern overall privacy may not take in to account the nature of internet transactions like being on SL or surfing the web - it was not at all certain what the script actually did since you couldn't see it when you tried to look because of the permissions.

Truly, I would never expect a citizen to be in a CDS sim!

Actually , given how empty things tend to be, that may not be inaccurate!

(I hasten to add, though, the law is still the law and the removal was appropriate. It's just another example of inappropriately applying meatspace concerns to the virtual realm and we've had quite enough trouble from those at this point in our history, no?)

The Singularity can't happen fast enough in my mind.

[Bagheera]

Yes, I would guess it was not an officially sanctioned action. Removing it was probably the easiest and best option there!

Granted, I find the specific concern about privacy in this context a little amusing: you don't get rights that broad in most real-life democracies which hold having your image caught on a public camera - for traffic intersections, for example - is perfectly all right. Every single SL user has the ability to track everyone in a sim by simple virtue of how the software works. It's a bit like people who are frantic about having elaborately cryptic passwords, yet leave their wifi router wide open. Or fret about people finding their IP address when everything you visit on the internet is going to know your IP for much the same reason someone needs to know your mailing address to send you a package. Security theatre, not security.

There's very little that freebie tracker can say except... you were in that location at that time. Which is an amazing surprise, given you're a CDS citizen. Truly, I would never expect a citizen to be in a CDS sim!

(I hasten to add, though, the law is still the law and the removal was appropriate. It's just another example of inappropriately applying meatspace concerns to the virtual realm and we've had quite enough trouble from those at this point in our history, no?)

I expect privacy where there is a policy of privacy in place.

If I understand what you are saying, you believe because cameras are so widespread in use, that there is no problem and privacy is a non-issue. If that were the case, Google and Facebook would not be so often in courts throughout the world. Even governments have had to justify their reasons for a camera in court - usually for traffic issues or to control crime in high risk areas. I don't think either of those are issues in CDS.

As for the Internet (which is a term I use globally to include virtual worlds, not just the WWW), although NOTHING is truly 100% secure, there are areas which are more secure than others. Security is a combination of actual efforts to make a pipeline secure AND whether an area is above or below the radar to whoever is "snooping". Second Life is actually a more secure area because it is a bit below the radar and its Interface isn't an easily pickable target. I don't care about my IP address getting out, it isn't static. Linden has made it so one can know who is in the same sim they are in, but not track people from sim to sim (except up to a certain radius to local sims). Also one has to be online to track avatar movements unless an avatar has given a friend-permission to track their whereabouts. I also know people can trustingly be tricked to wear or rez things that reveal much more than they might realize, such as whereabouts and private IMs. So you see, I am paying attention. Although Bromo says it was not concealed, it was not that obvious and I didn't like it.

You are entitled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine. CDS could always put it to a vote, but until they do and the citizens vote otherwise, I expect privacy as a private citizen of CDS.