CSDF Extraordinary General Meeting 24 Sept - Transcript

Patroklus Murakami · Post by **Patroklus Murakami** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:15 am

The CSDF held an Extraordinary General Meeting on 24 Sept in order to discuss the following issues and two draft bills prepared by Jon and Moon:

[list:1uoeqah8]1. Microplots
2. Group ownership of land in the CDS
3. Franchulates[/list:u:1uoeqah8]

(there were other items on the agenda but we didn't get to them)

Transcript to follow.

Patroklus Murakami · Post by **Patroklus Murakami** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:45 am

[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: pls touch the recorder, u know the drill by now[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][i:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle laughs. I am optimistic[/i:sy98cdlh][/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:sy98cdlh][i:sy98cdlh]Ranma Tardis has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:sy98cdlh][/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Main theme, Moon and I are about to turn into bill proposing machines for a bit..[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: btw there was a sim roll back the other day[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: i came back to find the recorder still here[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: took it back into invenntory, now i have two![/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: so agenda again: 1. microplots 2. Group land 3. franch 4. burgh 5. confed 6. civil society[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: sorry, i digress. item 1 microplots. moon, would you like to kick off?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: sounds good.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: and ty for outlining the agreed agenda[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][i:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn adds herself to the queue to speak a bit as well[/i:sy98cdlh][/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: well, i don't have really much to offer to discussion on thi spoint... it does remind me a bit of some christian democrat tactics in election here[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: indeed[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: you mean pel's admission regarding microplots?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: i think though that we must make a statement about this, and propose some kind of solution[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: well, not really the admission, but the action[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: indeed[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Oh, Moon, please describe the tactic.. it is amusing[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: here they pack these buses flled to the brim with nuns and carry them to the voting booths[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: full*[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: yes, it's called 'getting out the vote'. in northern ireland they have another motto 'vote early, vote often' lol[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: of course, ona can argue that if the political propositions were really good, they didn't need to do this[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: well, they must have been worried[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: (they seldom get more than 10%, even with buses, lol)[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Ranma Tardis[/b:sy98cdlh]: in America Church groups bring voters to the polls[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: but there's nothing illegal or untoward in them doing that, and i'm not sure that pel has done anything wrong here either[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Ranma, true.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: I would argue that he has done something unethical.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: Hmm[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: well, it would be definetely wrong if he had one that with alts, i agree[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: That's where I have my issues...[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: Yes, Moon, that would be clear.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: that is in that the microplot buyers are not intending to be full citizens and participate as such.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: But if you invite friends to join NFs...[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Ranma Tardis[/b:sy98cdlh]: the question is what effect did this have on the election and are the citizens still active in the community?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: Good question, Ranma[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: well, we donn't know that for sure. i've tried to contact the microplotters and have recieved a few replies to IMs but no actual connversation as yet[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: yes, good queston Ranma[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: they could just be very quiet NFSers [/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Ranma Tardis[/b:sy98cdlh]: it would not take many votes to change the results[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: true on both accounts...[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Ranma, indeed.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: i'm sure that pel's ruse did work to the dpu's advantage in the last elections[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: but so what? the same option was open to us too[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Ranma Tardis[/b:sy98cdlh]: also his own personnal advantage in the standings[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: Jon has a very good point too as what cncerns the hmm 'social' chracter of microplots[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: I think we need to respond in any case. To make sure that people who come here 1. do not face undue barriors to citizenship, and 2. do have enough of an investment to have a reason to be active members.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Ranma Tardis[/b:sy98cdlh]: these cam to vote and not be citizens it seems[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Ranma Tardis[/b:sy98cdlh]: came[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: but are they still here?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: And what do they do?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: oh i agree. i've always thought the microplots were a lousy idea, it's clear there are problems with them and they need to be abolished. but the microplotters have rights too and their interests need to be considered[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Pat, I disagree with you here. Yes, it is not illegal, but it undermines the purpose of democratic institutions here. That is if thay came to vote only.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: residents in larger plots also don't participate actively on the political project[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: Yes, well, my *personal* issue here is simply one. How much does it "cost" to buy votes?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: but jon, we don't know that. we're assuming ti from pel's post. it may be teh correctg conclusion but it's still an assumption until we have evidennce[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: we do have a paradox here, i think[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: To win the elections, all you need is to buy, say, 20 microplots for L$840 os so[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: *or[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: that is a fundamental qn gwyn, how much *should* a vote cost?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: but that is not really an argument[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: Yes, so, right now, it's far too low![/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: there are only 15 microplots[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: that is not an argument[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: sorry moon, what isn't?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: the price[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Let me focus this a bit. There are two issues 1. our public response, and 2. what we propose as a correction.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Ranma Tardis[/b:sy98cdlh]: ah but 5 votes would change the election from a tie to a majority win[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Perhaps we can deal with 2. the correction first?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Ranma Tardis[/b:sy98cdlh]: even 3 could be desisive[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: ty jon, that's helpful. ok, go ahead with 2 first[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: i mean that... what would be even 60 or 70 dollars?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Okay. I drafted a quick bill this morning.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: You have it as the first bill on the note card.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: The idea is to provide a barior to entry, not too high, yet enough to make it harder to[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: game the system.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: reading again...[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: it ends microplots.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: short and simple.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Moon had two good questions.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: i agree with freezing sales of microplots[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: and encouraging microplot owners to buy other land[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: well, they should be suspended till this issue is cleared, i agree[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: but i disagree with requiring them to do so. it's unfair. it's changing the rules retrospectively[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Ranma Tardis[/b:sy98cdlh]: are any of the microplot owners active members of the community?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: why the limit of 128m? is there a reason for that number?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: so you would defend instead that you keep these microplots and make them 'historical' in a sense?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: why is that relevant ranma? the level of activity they take is surely their choice?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: 128 was because I asked Moon what was the smallest city plot and it was greater than that number, and 128 is a power of two, which makes some mathematical sense given the geometry of the sim. However, that number is not set in stone.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Ranma Tardis[/b:sy98cdlh]: they make a cheap vote also are all of these citizens real people?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: yes, i would keep the historical microplotters until they've all movved out or bought land. things move so quick in sl it would prob take about three months[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: ok, so this bill should be changed to incorporate hmmm[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: 'all vacant microplots in the future shall be re-incorporated in the city's public land'[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: yes, something like that moon[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: we should bug the lindens to have colour text in the notecards... it would be useful for corrections[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: ranma, i don't know how many microplotters are 'real people' but i think we have to give them the benefit of the doubt. unless we have evidence they are alts for example[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: hm[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: While I am symathetic to Pat's concerns, I think if some of these microplot holds are here to swing votes, we would certainly want them to so they really have some investment in the community, and even encorrage them to buy land in CN. But I am willing[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: to go with Pat's suggestion.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: * so = show[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: well, it is go to have a clause that allows the city to re-take them[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: well one comment on the "microplot termination bill" is just to eliminate the sentence "rather that have been used to illegitimately influence elections." which is an interpretation of Pel's words without real proof[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: i agree gwyn[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Ok, agreed.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: agree, it can be taken away[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: The rest is fine...[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: It does make me quite mad because of the subversion of demcratic institutions thing.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: Now... this will tie into the franchulates bill... [/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: whoa[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: but will the dpu vote for this? given they are the party at advantage?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: Sorry... I'll let Moon talk[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: does clause 3 stay or no after all?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Ranma Tardis[/b:sy98cdlh]: it makes a joke out of our democratic process[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: they will have to, pat[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Pat, it they don't they will look quite bad.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: it would look terrible if they don't[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][i:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle agrees with Ranma[/i:sy98cdlh][/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: (deleted bitchy commment) thought better of saying that![/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: lol[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: yes, their credibility would be at stake[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: ok, Jon, shall we review this later on and email the crrections?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: i'm uncomfortable with removing citizenship from people who have played by the rules of the game[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: indeed pat[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Yes, so changes: just remove "rather that have been used to illegitimately influence elections."[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: can we even guaranteee there will be lots available for them to buy?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Indeed. In CN[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: and replace 2 by text on vacant lots[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: well, with a pack of bills in territory there will be a lot of alternatives, pat[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: perhaps we should give microplotters the right of 'first refusal' on any land that becomes vacant? i.e. they get the first opportunity to purchase before it goes public?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: actually, it will be even hard not to be a CDS citizen, lol![/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: hmmm, is it needed?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Moon, what is that second change? Editing now.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: i mean, there is always land[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: just thinking aloud [/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: 2. City will re-take possession of all microplots as they become vacant[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: 3 is dropped too[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Ranma Tardis[/b:sy98cdlh]: a quick look at the list shows that the RA member in question owns a microplot[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: So, in that case Pat's suggestion, that we not take back currently owned microplots.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Are we agreed on that?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: yes[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: ah[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: a clause for that[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: I would certainly prefer it that way[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Ranma, Pel does own more I hope![/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: how about 'the city will offer to buy back all microplots at the purchase price and will retake possession of all microplots as they become vacant' ?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: AH. Goog compromise, Pat![/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: *good[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Ranma Tardis[/b:sy98cdlh]: it is his group that owns the plot[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: the currently existing microplots shall continue to be held by their current owners, who keep their full citizen rights. No resale of these microplots is allowed, unless back to the city.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: I would prefer to undo the damage -- to make the point that this is not ligitimate.. but okay.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: pat's is good also[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: Acquired rights should be acquired rights[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: [/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: yes, pel always said they were for incorporattion of businesses. so that's what his are used for. it's an idea that doesn't seem to have caught on though[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: but make reference that these microplots can only be sold back to teh city[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Yes, I think it we want incorporation, we should have that as a seperate thing.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: their propriety is not transmissible[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: aliasi raised another purpose for microplots - to enable married couples to both be citizens. do we know if they have ever been used for that purpose?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: hmmm, that is an use that gets obsolete by group land bill[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: Hmm[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: Indeed Moon.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Well, the second bill covers that[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: No need to discuss it then hehe[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: it sounded like a red herring to me, but i thought i'd best check[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: ok .)[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Pat, we have that covered.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: group land?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Let me read the bill as it now stands.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Bill 1.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: how much does 128 cost, as a matter of interest?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: 1. Microplots should no longer be sold by NFS or by citizens.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: 2. The city will offer to buy back all microplots at the purchase price and will retake possession of all microplots as they become vacant[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: 3. NFS will sell no plot less than 128 m 2 in size.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: oh, a trifle, pat [/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: about 1 USD[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: should we consider raising the bar higher? US$1 is not much[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: that is why i said price is not an argumet [/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: Someone suggested that citiznes should pay an "escrow" of L$1000...[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Well, I do want to allow people to become citiziens by virtue of owning a city plot.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Gwyn, I really don't think we can get that to fly politically.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: these are yet more of pel's 'bright ideas'?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: I tend to agree... but ... it was suggested[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: Yes[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: He sort of sees how much a citizen pays per year[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: also 1k L is also not much... that's two outfits[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: and splits it among "escrow" and "citizen's fee"[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: It's weird, I know,[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: but it's his economic way of looking at things.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: What is more worth? A plot of 128 m2 or L$1000?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: i can see that it's just another way of paying what we pay anyway[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: I would say, Sl being Sl, we'd give more value to a plot of 128 m2[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: the problem is 'why?'[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: i am srry[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Ranma Tardis[/b:sy98cdlh]: yes why?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: we have a lot to discuss[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: when land is a well-understoood concept and has served us well?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: sorry moon, off at a tangent again![/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: yes lol[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: group land?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: is 144 m the smallest plot in nfs?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: uh,about it, yes[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Okay, are we agreed on the language I just pasted?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: Right now, yes... I think I own that one.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: [/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][i:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle smiles at Gwyn[/i:sy98cdlh][/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: i think there is one smaller, at about 128m2, but it is exceptional[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: yes jon, i just needed to be sure of the figures. i actually think this is quite critical[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][i:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle nids[/i:sy98cdlh][/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: nids?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: *nods[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: lol![/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: typoing[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: sorry, lil![/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: Just a tiny philosophical question, before Moon starts throwing heavy objects at me. Should we add something to the effect that we're not "only raising the bar for entrance"[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: ie. from 16 to 128 m2[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: but to change the concept[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: because with microplots, you couldn't have a home[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: that can be added to the preamble[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: so citizens were citizens, but homeless citizens,[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: Yes[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: That was my idea, Moon.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Indeed, I think that important.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: Expolaining that the notion of "citizens without a home/shop" is aliean to us, thus raising to 128 m2[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: *alien[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: I will add that to the preamble.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: Why... why do we have so many typos today? )[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: nods, ok[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: yes, i think citizenns should have a home and/or businness here. i agree, gwyn[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: Thanks Jon.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: cool[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: settled[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: stop writing Gwyn![/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: Well, as said, it "slightly" turns the focus away from "cheating" towards "defining citizenship"[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][i:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*[/i:sy98cdlh][/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:sy98cdlh]: brb[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: [/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Okay, the group thingy[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: yes jon, item 2. the group thingy [/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: yes[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Ranma Tardis[/b:sy98cdlh]: dont like it[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: This bill also comes out of the discussions we have been having on how to fix the franch[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: why not Ranma?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Ranma Tardis[/b:sy98cdlh]: citizens should be such by their own efforts[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: bill so it aids in expansion.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Ranma Tardis[/b:sy98cdlh]: it does not make sense[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: but they can contribute to the monthly fee, no?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: But in this case it also gives more flexability to groups who want to join us.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Ranma Tardis[/b:sy98cdlh]: is everthing about a monthy fee?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: let me present the concept as it is in franch[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: indeed.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Ranma Tardis[/b:sy98cdlh]: nothing says a citizen ca not join any group they wish[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: ranma[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: for franchulates[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: we defined that[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Ranma Tardis[/b:sy98cdlh]: dont see the benifit they recieve[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: a group holding a franchulate is, at the light of the CDS, a cooperative[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: (is tempted to rename this also the Sudane headache reduction bill for people like Moon and Jon.. )[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: in that cooperative, group members hold shares that are tied to units of land[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: those units wll be eual to the land unit in the CDS islands, that is, 128 m2[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: this means that[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: this is in the revised franchulate bill? not the one that was passed already?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: you can't have 512m2 and 900 group members[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: in our revision, which i am still holding[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: now[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: why is this useful?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: because it simplifies work[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: you have a group that can become a citizen[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Ranma Tardis[/b:sy98cdlh]: who is going to track group membership to equal citizenship?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: it is notarised[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: such as happens with normal land[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: and the processes will managed by the exec branch[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: It also handles "marrages" in a way that does not impose a definition of such..[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: or 'companies'[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Ranma Tardis[/b:sy98cdlh]: I dont like it, gut reaction. too easy to make fraud[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: indeed.[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: or even 'communities'[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: ranma, thing is[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: here's my problem with it...[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: listens to pat[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: i have over 8000m on the mainland[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: yes[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: let's say i decide to franchulate it[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: you landbaron you [/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: hehe![/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: then i form a group 'fans of pat' and head off to gor to get some slaves[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: yes[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: i fill the grouip with 60 people[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: lol[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: and they all vote on you[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: and they all become nfs citizens[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: thing is[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: indeed.. can I write the rest of this story?[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: and they all vote for me! hurrah[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: please Jon [/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: Ah, no, there isa slave rebellion[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Sienna:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Jon Seattle[/b:sy98cdlh]: they toss you out on your ear[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Navy:sy98cdlh][i:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami's real name is 'spartacus'[/i:sy98cdlh][/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: lol[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=DarkGreen:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Moon Adamant[/b:sy98cdlh]: i think that you should look at it in a deper way[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][b:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami[/b:sy98cdlh]: no, these 60 are under my control. better still, we get a nazi group join us and they vote as a block[/color:sy98cdlh]
[color=Black:sy98cdlh][i:sy98cdlh]Patroklus Murakami shudders[/i:sy98cdlh][/color:sy98cdlh]

Patroklus Murakami · Post by **Patroklus Murakami** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:46 am

[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: you have citizenship tied to land, so it can be gamed as land is gamed[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: Yes, but this argument works for any democratic system. The fact that they have land as a group does not change anythning.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: I've heard I'm allowed to come back...?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: the problem is that none of these ppl have any real tie to neufreistadt[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: Tou could just direct them to buy land each, and the vote as you will.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: yes[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: provided yoiu've done the required reading gwyn [/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: you could even get them a microplot for each![/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Not yet...[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: see, pat?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: jon, we haven't been taken over yet because we throttle the influx of new citizens. your proposal would open the floodgates. with no controls i can see this ending very badly[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Hmm[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: Oh, not it does not do that[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Again, I see the age-old argument[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: why fear the citizens? [/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: but then so would franchulates, no?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: Because you have to have enough land to give each a 128 m2 plot[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: come to that, but then can Colonia Nova...[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Pat... actually, our friend Dnate had the same problem[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: listens to gwyn[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: I mean... if we open up to a much larger scale than our current one,it'll mean that the majority of citizens will not live on NFS + CN[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: listens to Gwyn also[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: But they will ciizens nevertheless.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: So, Pat (and Dnate argued the same way)[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: what you'd like is "colonialism"[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: franchulates, yes, but citizens under control of their vote,[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: and the "central area" (the "home nation") is in control [/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: (laughs) Ah, shall we be the new Rome?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: gwyn, accusing me of 'colonialism' is a little too much. that word has some very negative associations[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: As you might imagine, I'm for the opposite.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Oh, people and their political correctness,[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: sure replace the word by something else, I have no time to check my thesaurus.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: And apologies in advance[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: you're ascribing a view to me that i don't hold, and then attacking it. not good[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: oh my[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: In any case, [insert thesaurus equivalent here] is a model where the home nation "controls" their new posessions, by limiting how people may join and vote there.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: No offense intended, Pat[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: As said, many have the same view, just come up with better names for it.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: Pat, I really do not think Gwyn intended what you think. She was just saying that under your scenario we would be extending land for those who become citizens[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Yes, and citizens are citizens...[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Ranma Tardis[/b:t7kesudm]: still do not like the concept[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: Instead of extending citizenship first.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: i'm puzzled, would you really argue for opening up the CDS without 'any controls[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: So if we "annex" Celadon,[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: which has 200 citizens[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: and we just have 40[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: hmmm, that Thingy does tend to also not work well.... i am thinking Boston Tea Party here[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: it's clear that the next RA would be Celadon-controlled,[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Ranma Tardis[/b:t7kesudm]: what if the "annex" us[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: but under CDS law![/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Yes, Ranma, but that's what happens when a smaller nation tries to annex a larger one,[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: I've been looking for examples[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: no, Pat... as for franchulates, just set a ceiling to the number of franchulates that can be added each legislature[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: in history, and the best I came with were the Mongolian invasions of China[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: gwyn, jon, moon. under yoiur proposal, what is to stop W-Hat, or some other bunch of goons, from joining the CDS en masse in order to destroy us?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: say it is 10% of the total area of the land held by the CDS[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Well Pat[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Ranma Tardis[/b:t7kesudm]: just dont see what advantage they get other than voting and possibly the ownership of this sim[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: that's why we have a law system [/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: And checks and balances.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Ranma Tardis[/b:t7kesudm]: once we are voted out they change the laws[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: how is that a protection? they could take us over perfectly legally and dispose of all the assets[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Ranma... that happens all the time.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: Pat. Two things 1. we still have an approval process, and 2. it would be costly to them because in effect they would be handing over control of their lands to a democratic government.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Well[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: I think that the issue is "now" vs. "in a few years"[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Ranma Tardis[/b:t7kesudm]: so we loose what we own in a democratic way?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: If we grow organically from sim after sim,[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: what is the approval process? that hasn't been elaborated yet[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: every two years or so a new sim,[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: may I?\[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: eventually we'll also have 1000 citizens that way. And they will certainly "vote us out"[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][i:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant makes her Sir Humphrey Appleby smile[/i:t7kesudm][/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Sooner or later, we'll have to deal with the issue: we're not just a tiny group[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: lol ok Moon[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: thing is[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: I think that what people fear is the "fast pace of growth". But think about a slow pace of growth, the issues do not disappear[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: take another example, why shuld we pick the W-hats[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Ranma Tardis[/b:t7kesudm]: this opens the floodgates to fraud and diaster[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: please, may i speak?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: sorry moon, please do[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: Ranma, I cannot see that. Can you elaborate with a scenario?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Ranma Tardis[/b:t7kesudm]: ok we have a large group join and vote as a block[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][i:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami listens to moon... intently[/i:t7kesudm][/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: listens to moon[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Ranma Tardis[/b:t7kesudm]: they come in and change the laws[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: instead of W-hats, take esperantoists instead[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Ranma Tardis[/b:t7kesudm]: eminet domain is used to clear this sim of residents[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: they are a peaceful group, with a very lofty cause[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Ranma Tardis[/b:t7kesudm]: group sells sim for the money[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Ranma Tardis[/b:t7kesudm]: net profit[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: ranma, could yoiu wait for moon to finish?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: they are also 60 or so...[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Ranma Tardis[/b:t7kesudm]: sorry have to leave soon[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: imagine that they buy CN en masse[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: plus some odd plots here at NFS[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: and vote, obviously, according to their own agenda[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: as it is their right indeed[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: is it wrong?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: imagine that they take hold of the RA with a very careful voting tactic[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: so are you saying that as we expand to CN we shouldn't guard against that possibility?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: no[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: and are you using that straw man to defend reckless expansion alonng the lines yoiu propose?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: what i am saying is that democracy means that everyone has exactly the same power[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: Well, the other thing is that any group joining us would require RA approval.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: You are assuming a recless RA.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: and people join their powers as they see better to fulfil their agendas[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: such, as, say, the CSDF![/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: i didn't see that in your proposal jon, what is the approval process for groups joining us in this way?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: i mean also that we should be careful when we say that we fear that others can do the same thing[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: No, my proposal is for internal groups only. On NF not CDS lands.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: This connects to but it different from the Franch bill.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: thing also is - we must have this discussion at some time...[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: well, now i'm hopelessly confused. is it 'bring me your huddled masses' or controlled immigration? and if its the latter how is it going to be controlled?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: so better discuss it thoroughly befre we are pushed into action- as has just happened with microplots[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: Lets separate these issues. The bill I emailed is much more limited[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: should groups be allowed to own land in common in NFS[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: For example Moon and I do.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Ranma Tardis[/b:t7kesudm]: we are a democracy, not a group out to save second life from their worries[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: ok, so just sticking with item 2, bill 2[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: what does this add to nfs and why is it limited to nfs and not the cds as a whole?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Let me just add something, which I probably should have thought before...[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: It is limited because doing so adds the "trottle" on membership you wanted Pat.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: listens to gwyn[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Turkey violates basic human rights, correct?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: We have not yet worked out how additional sims will be governed, if separate.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Still, they're on the list of countries to be admitted on the EU[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: yes gwyn, they do[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: to give them an opportunity to deal with those issues,[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: during a "transition phase"[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: And when they deal with it, Turkish citizens will be exactly like any other European citizen.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: So,[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: I wouldn't mind defining "transition phases" for franchulates.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: yes, the inclusion of former dictatorships in the EU is part of bringing them into the democratic fold[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Giving them the opportunity to learn and participate.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][i:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Pat[/i:t7kesudm][/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Precisely.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: i can agree with that, Gwyn[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: aah, i like where you're going with this[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: and that is done by letting them watch, observe, and get educated and trained.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Good, Pat [/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: I think this is a good idea. Now about bill 2 though?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: I want to hear Pat's objections[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: yes Jon, you're right lol[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: lol Jon, sorry[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: order![/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][i:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle laughs[/i:t7kesudm][/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: where's the hammer?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][i:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn hasn't found one in her inventory[/i:t7kesudm][/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: i think i'm edging towards opposition to any form of group membership conferring citizenship in NFS/CDS[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: hmmm, consider that you may be then putting aise interesting groups[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: hooray [/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: aside*[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: I see, then Moon and I need to separate our land holdings?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: it has to be based on individual suffrage, admitting groups en masse seems hopelessly dangerous to me. why do we need to do this any way[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Ranma Tardis[/b:t7kesudm]: sorry I agree with Pat, no[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: but why don't you look at them as cooperatives held by citizens?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: Pat, please explain how this work "en masse"[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Ranma Tardis[/b:t7kesudm]: it is dangerous[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: because it's wide open to abuse[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Well I understand Pat's objections... and on second thoughts... I might have to think a bit more[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: why Pat? if they all hold the same basic unit of land?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: because currently individual's make a determined choice to become part of our community[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: They don't, Moon, philosophically, they don't.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: they make a decision *for themselves*[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: they do[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: if we follow this proposal, people will become citizens 'by default'[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: ah Pat, but they also choose to be notarised as citizens[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][i:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle agress with Moon on this.[/i:t7kesudm][/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: no, they will not[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: imagine this scenario[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: there you go again with a procedure that is not elaborated in yoiur proposal![/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: This is terrible. I supported Moon's and Jon's proposal yesterday, because I'm a pragmatist by heart[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: but let's put it there, drat it[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: but I'm glad Pat has raised this[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: this is not written in stone[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Ah of course not.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: Well, Pat, how about limiting the number of citiziens by this method.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: What limit would you go with?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: sorry moon, it's just that i'm not party to all of the thinking you've done on this. all i have to go on is the proposal[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Basically, what Pat's arguments would say is: "groups can become part of the CDS, but first, each and every individual has to be a citizen"[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: we are not presenting bill here so you applaud and be dazzled by our superior thinking, they are here to be discussed, lol[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: haha[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: Pat![/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: My, we're all edgy today![/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: answer my question.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: maximum two?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Ranma Tardis[/b:t7kesudm]: citizen needs to be an induvial thing, between citizen and goverment[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Yes.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: but you very carefully write down wh is a citizen[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: i don't want to go down that road jon. i want citizens to each make a decision to join us[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: very very carefully... with same exact care as you do with people hlding a fachwerk[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: whatever groups they then form, join or leave are up them[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: imagine this scenario:[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: If it is two people buying land together, don't both decide to join?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Jon and Moon... I hope that, to fuly understand that Pat and Ranma are not being "stubborn", is that, while the end result might be the same (a group of citizens on a franchulate), the way you reach that final goal is different.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: well, consider this[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: i can get land on a franchulate[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: sorry, better[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: Gwyn, I am not talking about Franches at the moment.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: what stops me and my Cunning Team of Very Very Bad People[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: to make this very awful plan[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Jon ? I think that all you need to change is: "1. Plots of land in NFS may be owned by groups of one or more persons." to "1. Plots of land in the CDS may be owned by groups of one of more citizens."[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: of getting each our plot[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: and apply for franchulate[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: (and eliminate 4. since it would be redundant)[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: Say I change that language to "one, two or three citizens"[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: and then say : aHA! we have tricked you! now we are going to vote for every citizen in teh CDS to wear a hippo on their heads at all times?'[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Nothing, Moon. I could expect that Pel could round out 4 or 5 citizens and do the same, even without a group.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: well moon, to answer your point, you can't do this under the current franchulate act. you *may* if a revised franch bill is passsed. but i have my reservations of extending the franch idea in this direction, especially after this discusssionn[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: so pat, i think you have a problem there[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: Please address the bill in question.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Pat, would you agree on groups owning land if all members of the group are citizens *before* they form the group?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: because every expansion can be considered by you as threatning[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: So, there would be validation of citizenship first,[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Ranma Tardis[/b:t7kesudm]: like Pat do not like the road this leads us down and see no benifit to this plan[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: and group ownership of land next.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: On Jon's proposal,[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: it would mean a very simpler approach, just "Plots of land in the CDS may be owned by groups of one or more citizens"[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: The rest would be redundant.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: why do you want to make the change? what problem does this solve? if you want to change the basis for citizenship in NFS it is incumbent on you to outline the benefits[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: This supercedes one bill somewhere that do not allow groups to own land.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: i'm just pointing out the dangers[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Ah, there we enter into the dangerous road of different ways to achieve citizenship.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: because, pat, we are about to expand[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: and these issues must be discussed now[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: Pat, for example, "marreied" citizens may not own land in common. Right?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Ranma Tardis[/b:t7kesudm]: I dont see any real advantage and it leads us down a dangerous path[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: You can expand by validating citizenship first, and allowing the expanded territory to join the CDS next...[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Ranma Tardis[/b:t7kesudm]: why?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: Pat, for example, "married" citizens may not own land in common. Right?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Yes, Jon, and that is a discrimination against the UDHR, "right to associate" and "discrimination based on status", ie. married people aren't allowed co-ownership of land.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Ranma Tardis[/b:t7kesudm]: "marriage" in second life is a joke[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: Ranma, Colonia Nova will be up before the end of the year... do you think these issues can go undiscussed?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: well, "marriage" is just a common example, Ranma, there are lots of other types of associations.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: that sounds like a 'guilt-tripping' argument to me. "you're intefering with someone's human rights"[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: for you maybe, ranma... i assure you other people look at their SL commitments in a very serious manner[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Ranma Tardis[/b:t7kesudm]: sorry, no[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][i:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle agrees with Moon so much[/i:t7kesudm][/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: in practice married people can both own separate plots of lannd in the CDS and live here together[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: no rights infrinnged[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Well I agree taht it might make for a weak argument, Pat, yes[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: And the same would apply to larger groups[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: But hmm[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][i:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn *scratches head*[/i:t7kesudm][/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Well, there has to be a way to do both![/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Ranma Tardis[/b:t7kesudm]: why?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Why, Ranma?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][i:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle feels this is discrimination against people involved in such associations and relationships.[/i:t7kesudm][/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Imagine a world where you wouldn't have the right to freely associate and own common property.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: What kind of world would that be? [/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: thing is people... can't you see that whle you keep citizenship attached to land, you can game it if you game land?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][i:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn agrees with Jon on that,[/i:t7kesudm][/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: jon, i fail to see how this is discrimination in any way shape or form. no one is prevennted from becoming a citizen by virtue of being married[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: although I agree with Pat (after his good argument) that the right to associate formally should be to citizens... so, citizens first, assocation next.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: the same rules apply to those who are sinngle or in a relationship[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Indeed, Pat, we just prevent them co-ownership.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: so, is that the issue?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Although we do, to a degree, allow people to incorporate,[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: and own land in the corporation.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: thing is[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: I think so, Pat.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: Pat, yet preventing co-ownership prevents them from using that land together. Each must build, for example, a seperate house according to the zoning rules just passed.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: If we reason that way,[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkGreen:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Moon Adamant[/b:t7kesudm]: indeed Jon[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: what we're really trying to say is that we DO have a solution for everything already [/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: I see, so if a business you can do it, if a marrage of some kind, not allowed.[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Get groups to incorporate, and then they'll have the right to co-ownership![/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: well, it *that* is the issue, why not simply introduce a bill to allow couples to own land in common? your proposal is quite different, i've been arguing against it strenuously on the basis that groups may use it to undermine our democracyy[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Black:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Patroklus Murakami[/b:t7kesudm]: if the real issue is rights for couples, that is quite different[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=Sienna:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Jon Seattle[/b:t7kesudm]: Pat, that is why I would be open to limiting numbers. No, I would not like NFS to define "couple" or limit those associations[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Indeed. why can't the "friends of Pat" group not have their commonly held grouped land?[/color:t7kesudm]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:t7kesudm][b:t7kesudm]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:t7kesudm]: Then we'd have to define 248 different exceptions.[/color:t7kesudm]

Patroklus Murakami · Post by **Patroklus Murakami** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:46 am

[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Whereas the way I see this is that *citizens* should have the right to group themselves and own land together,[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: i think very honestly that pat's friends could each get a plot of land... and then unite, so i fail to see to argument for groups dominating the CDS[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: the argument*[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: whether in NFS/CS or elsewhere, once they're citizens... they have the right to do whatever they wish with their land.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][i:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle agrees with Moon on that[/i:r1fxk3e4][/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Also we shouldn't be afraid of our citizens [/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][i:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle agrees with Gwyn[/i:r1fxk3e4][/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: What we should be afraid, yes, is of people becoming citizens without really understanding why. But that's another issue![/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: actually, that was what happened with pel's friends, if you think a bit[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Yes Moon.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Indeed Moon[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: They came into NFS independently of what we might think of them[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: ok gwyn, that works for couples who form relationship after becoming citizens. what about those who form a relationship after becoming citizens?[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: hm?[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: ?[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: say my RL partner decides to actually use the avatar i made for him and we decide to get hitched?[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Wait, what is your question?[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Ah,[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: so your question is about the "before"[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: [/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: What is the problem, Pat? If they become citizens, validated separately,[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Ranma Tardis[/b:r1fxk3e4]: sorry, I will not support this and call for a vote, I have to leave to do my real life job[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: he's not a CDS citizen currently, does he become one by virtue of 'marriage' and joint ownerhship of lannd?[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: what they do *afterwards* should be their problem.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Noooo[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: ah, of course Ranma[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: bye rannma, glad u could make it[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Ranma Tardis[/b:r1fxk3e4]: pat has my proxy[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: hehe[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: thanks for showing by, ranma, i hope we didn't mess your day[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: No, Pat, under Gwyn's proposal he would have to become a citizen first, then you could combine your land holdings.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Your argument, Ranma, for the record, is that allowing citizens to become citizens "By default" is too dangerous, right?[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Ranma Tardis[/b:r1fxk3e4]: not at all, this is pleasnt compaired to real life[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Ranma Tardis[/b:r1fxk3e4]: correct and it leads us down a path to our own destruction[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Ok.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: I think that Pat fully supports that view, yes[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: under, i think, the current proposal,[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: i'm going to need to leave soon too[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Ranma Tardis[/b:r1fxk3e4]: got to leave[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: In my case, after hearing your arguments, I think that you both have moved the issue from "groups" towards "what is citizenship and how do we validate it"?[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Ranma Tardis[/b:r1fxk3e4]: bye bye[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: bye Ranma, take care![/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: bye ranma[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: ah[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: bye ranma[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: well[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: I am going to change the bill to require that all members of the group be citizens before hand.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: two things to define citizenship[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Ok, Jon, still something remains,[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Pat, please answer my question.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: 1. that they uphold the CDS codes, const and tos[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][i:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn will wait for Moon[/i:r1fxk3e4][/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: what question jon? I just scrolled back and couldn't find one[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: 2. that they will prove that their group holds land enough to provide each member with the basic unit of land that is connected to citizenship[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: what is your problem about this?[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: My question was, do you still have an objection if all members (say limit three) are citizens before mergeing their property.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: and the citizen's application is an individual process[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Indeed.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: if you limit group numbers, you limit right to association[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: yes, I agree with Moon on that too.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: But I am interested in Pat's response with a limit[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: provided that, all groiup members are citizens before they merge holdings, and that new members of the group do not automatically become citizens, i do not object[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: that makes me think of dictature years here - you couldn't walk in teh street in groups of more of 5 people... you could be plotting something[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Pat, I will re-write the bill that way.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Pat, can I remove the limit on numbers?[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: it doesn't matter to me if two, three or twenty members decide to share holdings. provided they joined as individuals[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: one thing extra though occurs to me..[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Okay, then we agree.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: we have a limit on the amount of land any one individual can hold, do we need a corresponding upper limit for group holdings?[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: hmmmm[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: i'm thinking about the possiblity that a well-funded group might choose to buy up all available land as it becomes available, thereby preventing expansion or maintaining a parliamentary majority[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: ah, the Group of Very Bad People, lol[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: we can set a ceiling[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: let me get my calc[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: THOUGH[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: if you set a ceiling[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: i think the individual limit is 4096 per citizen[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: you are actually limiting the number of people in the group[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: yes, which is generious. I think only DNate approaches that.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: yes, it would be too much[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: a group with 16 members could control an entire sim like NFS and prevent anyone else from joining[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: but pat[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: again[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: they can wickedly keep their own 16 plots independent and do that all the same[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Still, I am not sure how this relates to group ownership, since any individual can buy up plots.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: no, the current system is more resilient[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: and laugh at us from teh schloss, sniggering as they heat the oil[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: the plots are in many different sizes[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: and they cannot currently be amalgamated[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: but people can follow their agends independently of what ammount of land they own, lol[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: At one point I owned three plots, in two chunks. I sold one to Rubai so he would have prims for his place.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: if you allow group land, then it becomes easy to incorporate land as it becomes availabe into the collective[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Pat, why is that?[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: i think group land needs some more thought. i haven't thought all of this through yet[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: ok[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: i suggest the following[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: that we rewrite this and set it to discussion by mail[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: i think also[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: let me make a point here[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: oh, Pat crashed[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: ah wb pat [/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: my ibook overheated[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Pat, this bill is important to me, for reasons that I hope you will understand.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: wb Pat.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: had to switch computers[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: i hope you don't think i' just being stubborn, or super-cautious or overly pessimistic[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: no Pat[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][i:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn is back as well and doesn't think anything like that about Pat,[/i:r1fxk3e4][/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: it's just that i look for the unintended consequences of every proposal[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: actually, Pat, if it weren't your argumen t at just the *precise* time,[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: just look at the microplots[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: A good approach to be sure.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: yes[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: I would have gone with Jon's and Moon's proposal without thinking twice.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: they were introduced for one purpose, and appear to have served another[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: but the microplots show also[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: that's why i question everything![/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Yes![/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: yes, but so do we[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: the thing is[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Indeed. But I would like to refine this bill so it at least serves the purpose I explained.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: if you allow expansion[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: It may need changes.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: namely through franchulates[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: as the bill stands[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: For example Gwyn's suggestion that members should be citizens first[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: i really need to go in RL now. how shall we resolve this?[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: just le t me finish this reasoning[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: franchulate citizens have one more right than NFS citizens[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: that is, they have the right to freely associate[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: and really one of the things that must be asured at all times is that all citizens have exactly the same rights[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: how are nfs citizens restrained from free association? i don't follow you moon[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: well, if they can't form a cooperative to hold common land....[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: They can only incorporate...[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: so these issues must all be normalized[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: yes, i accept that these issues must be considered[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: and normalized indeed - that is, all procedures must be alike[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Yes![/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: That should be the priority:[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: "one" model for citizenship.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: so this group bill is really an attempt t normalise[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: "one" model for group ownership.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: indeed[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: i don't necessarily go along with you on that moon, part of the reason why things 'might' be different is because of LLs policies towards private islands and the mainland[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: as far as i go understand it, citizenship implies 3 things[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: all things should be equal, but that might not always be possible[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Ok Moon... perhaps if we can get at the *root* of citizenship, we'll be able to see how we can adapt it to fit all cases.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: look, i suspect we could go around this for a lot longer[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: 1. acceptance and upholding of CDS rules 2. holding the basic unit of land 3. legally recording the citizenship[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: do we continue this discussion by email in the meantime?[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: yes, I think that is a good list.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Aye so far (and I'm sorry, Pat, I understand you have to leave us!)[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: yes Pat hmmmm[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: ell, i should go too and make lunch happen[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: or on the forums?[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: lol Moonie[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: in the csdf part?[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Okay, I will email out the revised drafts of the two bills.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: I would personally prefer the forums on the philosophical debate.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: ie. regarding citizenship[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: the rest are our bills, so we'll keep them on our own[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: we can start the citizenship on teh forums[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: ok[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: works for me[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Yes, and only that, Moon[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Yes, I think that is a good idea.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:r1fxk3e4]: and gather feedback for our bills.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: but i must say that i do not have a lot of time to wade across them[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: knee deep in argumnt[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: do you want to continue to meet? or shall i turn off he recorder?[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=DarkGreen:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Moon Adamant[/b:r1fxk3e4]: i think you can tke it[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: Yes, please turn it off.[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Sienna:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Jon Seattle[/b:r1fxk3e4]: thanks[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Black:r1fxk3e4][b:r1fxk3e4]Patroklus Murakami[/b:r1fxk3e4]: okay, ending recording[/color:r1fxk3e4]
[color=Indigo:r1fxk3e4][i:r1fxk3e4]The meeting closed at 6:24 Linden time.[/i:r1fxk3e4][/color:r1fxk3e4]

CDS Discussion

CSDF Extraordinary General Meeting 24 Sept - Transcript

CSDF Extraordinary General Meeting 24 Sept - Transcript

CSDF Extraordinary General Meeting - Transcript 1/3

CSDF Extraordinary General Meeting - Transcript 2/3

CSDF Extraordinary General Meeting - Transcript 3/3