Hello All . . . What follows is the transcript of the meeting of the Scientific Council on March 11, 2012. A quorum was present.
[08:34] You: Now I understand why I didn't hear from you about the agenda for today.
[08:34] You: I posted it on the Forum.
[08:35] You: Grumble, grumble, now to find that URL . . .
[08:35] DeliaLake Pinion: I've been traveling for work + had to have my laptop repaired, now this....
[08:35] You: Yikes, when it rains, it pours.
[08:36] DeliaLake Pinion looks in inventory for an umbrella
[08:37] Aliasi Stonebender: so I suppose we'll be waiting for 9?
[08:37] You: Here it is . . . http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3761
[08:37] DeliaLake Pinion: ty
[08:38] You: We can review and see what needs to be changed.
[08:38] You: It was taken from the transcrip of the last meeting.
[08:38] You: Take a moment to read and make notes.
[08:43] You: Any additions or corrections?
[08:43] Shep (shep.titian): wb
[08:43] DeliaLake Pinion: read the agenda. I'm now looking for Tor's original dates posting
[08:46] You: Aliasi, any comments while Delias looking?
[08:46] Aliasi Stonebender: looking it over myself.
[08:47] Aliasi Stonebender: Nothing too untoward. The dates don't seem like something too controversal, but I've been surprised before.
[08:47] Aliasi Stonebender: people will argue surprisingly vehemently about how it is a Betrayal of Democracy that something happen a day later or earlier.
[08:50] DeliaLake Pinion: lol
[08:51] DeliaLake Pinion: can't find Tor's post but I do remember the discussion
[08:51] You: From the comments in the Forums, we seem to have a few of those around.
[08:52] DeliaLake Pinion: and it is really about interpretation of the constitution as to the meaning of words
[08:52] You: Sooo, is there anything we are to decide?
[08:53] Aliasi Stonebender: What can I say, my attitude is a bit like something I heard re: the Conch Republic of Key West (where they protested a border crossing being set up on the exit from the island like they were a foreign country by declaring themselves one)
[08:53] Aliasi Stonebender: "They even applied to the UN, but being Key West, they probably never got around to actually mailing it in."
[08:53] You: I remember that story.
[08:54] You: They were all drinking at Buffet's place, . . .
[08:54] Aliasi Stonebender: So long as the regions are standing and eyesores are infrequent the rest is sort of icing.
[08:55] You: Any discussion on the issue in the agenda?
[08:56] Aliasi Stonebender: specifically the dates? Not really.
[08:56] You: Delia, you had to do this before, your take, please?
[08:58] DeliaLake Pinion: I'm fine with the agenda. I'm not as far with my writing about the SC and its purpose as I'd hoped due to rl work but am willing to start this discussion anyway
[08:59] DeliaLake Pinion: so far as the dates for elections...
[08:59] You: Please proceed.
[09:00] DeliaLake Pinion: the question is when exactly do the 28 days start and end
[09:00] DeliaLake Pinion: for citizenship
[09:00] DeliaLake Pinion: so Pat's citizenship committee findings are relevant here
[09:00] DeliaLake Pinion: and also Sudane's discussion on the forum as to what can be tracked and what cannot
[09:01] Pip Torok is Online
[09:02] DeliaLake Pinion: Sudane said recently that the purchase of the land was not sufficient and the land purchase and tier payment were not connected as transaction records--paraphrasing from recollection
[09:03] DeliaLake Pinion: looking for the link to Sudane's comments
[09:03] Aliasi Stonebender: presumably we can at least track the tier payment, though?
[09:04] DeliaLake Pinion: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 9&start=45
[09:05] DeliaLake Pinion: Consider:
Newcomer W decides that they would like to participate in the next elections, but has no serious intention of owning land of staying any longer than the elections. They arrive in the CDS, go up to a "For Sale" Hippo box, and pay one month tier. Nothing else. They never feel any need to buy the parcel itself, since they are now in the Hippo list.
Two significant impacts to this. (1) If Rudeen (the CDS state) owns the land, it is deprived of the sale revenue. (2) If a private citizen owns the land, they are deprived of the sale revenue, while at the same time having no way to renew their tier payments, since now Newcomer W possesses the tier box.
We COULD do this. We could abandon the idea of the technical ownership of parcels, and define citizenship as purely a matter of payments to the Hippo box. The "state" could technically own all the land. But this would create a new nightmare of administration, since the constraints of parcel ownership, such as allocated prim limits, prim placement, e
[09:05] Shep (shep.titian): Hi Pip
[09:05] Pip Torok: hi .... xcuse while i orient myself
[09:05] You: Hello Pip
[09:06] DeliaLake Pinion: etc, would be removed.
I think that we must adhere to the functionality of private parcel ownership. And until the mechanism exists which ties tier payments to the "owner field" of About Land, we are stuck with a two-part system in which the two essential parts, "land ownership" and "tier payment" are utterly isolated.
FernLeissa wrote: I don't have any idea how you monitor citizenship established through land sponsorship. Is this something that could also be managed by the Hippo system?
This could actually be done fairly easily, following along with the issues I've just explained. There IS NO essential connection between land ownership and tier payment, except in our minds. Therefore, if we have no intention of giving the tier-paying citizen any "control" over the land they are paying for, such as in the case of the sponsorship of a public building, we can certainly simply set up a Hippo box anywhere, label it "Sponsorship of the Thermae", and let a citizen make payments to it.
[09:06] Pip Torok: hello soro
[09:06] DeliaLake Pinion: When no sponsor is paying for it, we really SHOULD change the text on the sign, to be instead of "For Sale" to something like "Sponsorship Available".
Now, that said, this concept of citizenship ALSO departs from the concept noted above of the technical ownership of parcels. I personally adhere to Gwyn's very appealing vision, that a citizen be an owner of land in the CDS.
[09:06] Pip Torok: !
[09:06] Aliasi Stonebender: actually
[09:07] DeliaLake Pinion: What really is the benefit of sponsorship? If it's an existing citizen simply wishing to expand their support of the community, then great! But if it's a newcomer hoping for a cheaper way of citizenship... why not simply make sure that we have sufficient small parcels to meet the demand?
[09:07] DeliaLake Pinion: yes, Aliasi?
[09:07] Pip Torok raises hand
[09:07] Aliasi Stonebender: just as a technical thing, I think Sudane has a slight error - it's fairly trivial to get the owner of a parcel of land, and similarly trivial to compare the key to whomever is paying a box. (I don't know if the hippo boxes do this natively, but it's not a difficult thing.)
[09:08] Aliasi Stonebender: similarly it could be set up to reject payment if you do not own the parcel.
[09:08] DeliaLake Pinion: ah
[09:08] You: Pip, your next.
[09:09] Pip Torok: well imo its still a good idea to have sponsorshop "on the books" as it were ...
[09:09] Pip Torok: it may be needed at some point ... done
[09:09] Shep (shep.titian): Raises hand
[09:10] You: Shep
[09:10] Shep (shep.titian): Sorry I'm a firm believer of land ownership gives citizenship
[09:10] Shep (shep.titian): Done
[09:11] You: Oh, a procedural point.
[09:11] You: All here consent to be recorded?
[09:11] Aliasi Stonebender: yes.
[09:11] Shep (shep.titian): Aye
[09:11] DeliaLake Pinion: yes
[09:11] You: Aye.
[09:12] MaryElizabethbc1: aye
[09:12] You: Delia?
[09:12] DeliaLake Pinion: aye
[09:12] You: oops
[09:12] You: pip
[09:12] Pip Torok: yes
[09:13] You: Is there a consensus of the SC on this point?
[09:14] You: I believe small parcels have their place.
[09:14] Nber Medici is Offline
[09:14] You: And that ownership be a requirement.
[09:15] Pip Torok raises hand
[09:15] You: Yes Pip
[09:15] DeliaLake Pinion: re parcels, it would seem to me that that is in the purview of the RA
[09:15] Pip Torok: in one case small parcels are essential :
[09:15] Pip Torok: in NFS for extra prim
[09:15] DeliaLake Pinion: so long as no defined group is disenfranchised or discriminated against
[09:15] You: Colonia Nova too.
[09:16] You: Delia, to your point. Do I have it right, that this discussion need not be before the SC?
[09:17] You: That our action only be advisory to the RA?
[09:17] DeliaLake Pinion: imo, the part of the discussion that belongs in the SC is how 28 days is defined
[09:18] DeliaLake Pinion: and to make sure that what is set out is technically doable
[09:18] You: Aliasi, is that your view?
[09:18] DeliaLake Pinion: Aliasi, might you have a discussion with Sudane re what can be tracked?
[09:19] Aliasi Stonebender: I could, although I don't know how much we can modify the boxes.
[09:19] Aliasi Stonebender: There might be a difficult edge case with group-owned land, I'm having to refamiliarize myself with the relevant LSL. Been awhile, been eyeball deep in javascript instead lately. 
[09:20] Shep (shep.titian): Raises hand
[09:20] DeliaLake Pinion: better you than me, Alisai
[09:21] You: Shep
[09:21] Shep (shep.titian): please be patient sow typist lol
[09:21] Shep (shep.titian): Slow
[09:22] Shep (shep.titian): I understood that we are set on having parcelos owned by a singular person .. therfore no group owners any longer
[09:23] Shep (shep.titian): Plus for new purchases .. when you buy land .. it instructs you that you must pay tier or the purchase is not complete
[09:23] Callipygian Christensen is Online
[09:23] Shep (shep.titian): Ergo any new citizens must have paid both and we need only check for arrears
[09:24] You: Calli is online
[09:24] Shep (shep.titian): done
[09:24] Aliasi Stonebender: hm. My parcel is still owned by Stonebender Corp (the group I used from way back in the stoneage when deeding to the group was the only way to own land on a private region!)
[09:25] You: We do not have the issue of "group" citizenship before us.
[09:25] Aliasi Stonebender: Although i don't use it to claim group citizenship. I'm merely noting it as a technical matter to follow up on later.
[09:25] Shep (shep.titian): Its part of Pat's investigation
[09:25] DeliaLake Pinion: the RA I think has to sort that out re group ownership etc
[09:25] You: But, we should be aware of its impact on our work.
[09:26] DeliaLake Pinion: for us, is when the 28 days starts
[09:26] You: I have a group with Mary. Is she not a citizen?
[09:26] Shep (shep.titian): That may change Soro
[09:26] You: Off topic for now.
[09:27] You: The 28 day issue seems to depend on some technical answers -- that only knowledgeable technicals like Aliasa can answer.
[09:28] DeliaLake Pinion: re 28 days, say someone purchases land in the CDS on april 14, the last day on Pat's list of dates to purchase and become a citizen
[09:28] DeliaLake Pinion: but the tier payment is not connected to that purchase
[09:29] DeliaLake Pinion: so stuff happens and the person does not pay the first tier until early morning of april 15
[09:29] DeliaLake Pinion: although the person is a land owner that person would not be a tier payer by the deadline
[09:29] Shep (shep.titian): Then it is the 15th they become a citizen
[09:29] DeliaLake Pinion: unless the 2 were connected
[09:30] Pip Torok agrees with Shep
[09:30] Shep (shep.titian): They are .. it tells the land purchaser that to complete the purchase you must pay tier
[09:30] DeliaLake Pinion: but currently the constitution reads "Article VI – Citizenship
1. A citizen of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators is a resident of SecondLife who has been granted title to any land by the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and who holds title under the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, for as long as he or she holds such title."
[09:31] Shep (shep.titian): It now states that the purchase is not complete until tier is payed
[09:31] Shep (shep.titian): paid lol
[09:31] Shep (shep.titian): I just bpought C19
[09:32] DeliaLake Pinion: the constitution does not requier tier payment for citizenship in thatthat section does not say must pay tier
[09:32] Shep (shep.titian): C13 sorry
[09:32] Pip Torok smells a proposal for a Constitutional change
[09:32] DeliaLake Pinion: the code of rules says that citizens in good standing are ones that are current on tier
[09:32] Shep (shep.titian): Well when I purchased C13 that's what I was told
[09:33] Pip Torok: so it is therefore covered by the existing Constitution
[09:33] Pip Torok: ?
[09:33] DeliaLake Pinion: so it would seem to me that whatever the RA decides as requirement for citizenship, that and the constitution need to become consistent
[09:33] Shep (shep.titian): If they are paying tier beyond the initial one they are already citizens
[09:35] DeliaLake Pinion: but the constitution currently does not say payment of tier. it says Article VI – Citizenship
1. A citizen of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators is a resident of SecondLife who has been granted title to any land by the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and who holds title under the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, for as long as he or she holds such title.
[09:35] Pip Torok: is not this already accounted-for by the phrase "in good standing"?
[09:35] DeliaLake Pinion: and Article V above it says Section 3
No citizen shall be eligible to vote in any election for public office in the Confederation of Democratic Simulators unless he or she has been a citizen for not less than 28 consecutive days immediately before any such election.
[09:36] Shep (shep.titian): Yes that is correct
[09:36] You: It seems to me, this is a due process issue.
[09:36] Shep (shep.titian): And now you can only complete a land purchase by paying tier
[09:36] You: They buy land, they are entitled.
[09:36] Shep (shep.titian): As well as the l;and
[09:37] Shep (shep.titian): It says the land is not purchased until tier is paid
[09:37] You: The are citizens until the "state" takes it back for non-payment.
[09:38] You: Here's Calli
[09:38] DeliaLake Pinion: hi Calli
[09:38] Pip Torok: hi calli
[09:38] Shep (shep.titian): Right .. so it comes back to check they tier is up to date
[09:38] Callipygian Christensen: morning everyone
[09:38] Shep (shep.titian): Hi Calli
[09:38] MaryElizabethbc1: good morning Calli
[09:38] You: Conset to recordation Calli?
[09:39] Callipygian Christensen: apologies..power outage had me offline and then didnt realize the meeting was still in progress
[09:39] You: Consent*
[09:39] Callipygian Christensen: always Soro
[09:40] Shep (shep.titian): lol
[09:41] Callipygian Christensen: if someone could point me to where we are on the agenda or topic?
[09:41] You: 28 days.
[09:41] You: Item 1 on the agenda
[09:41] DeliaLake Pinion: we are on the first topic
[09:41] Callipygian Christensen: why exactly are we discussing this again?
[09:42] You: Because it was postponed.
[09:42] DeliaLake Pinion: so if I may ask Shep then, is Sudane incorrect when she says "I think that we must adhere to the functionality of private parcel ownership. And until the mechanism exists which ties tier payments to the "owner field" of About Land, we are stuck with a two-part system in which the two essential parts, "land ownership" and "tier payment" are utterly isolated.
"
[09:42] Callipygian Christensen: we calculated dates for the upcoming, agreed on how to do so..so isn't it now just a matter of doing so for the dates onward into the future?
[09:42] Callipygian Christensen: It was only postponed asa 'we can do the rest of the dates later'
[09:43] Shep (shep.titian): I think the checks are isolated .. but in my recent experience you have to pay tier to complete a purchase
[09:44] You: The technical issue came up.
[09:44] Shep (shep.titian): And we can certainly check tier is up to date
[09:45] Callipygian Christensen: If someone has a log of the meeting so far, could you send to me please and Ill speed read
[09:45] DeliaLake Pinion: I'm fine with the dates then.
[09:46] Shep (shep.titian): We have no anomolies with new citizens atm .. so we need only make it crytal clear for the new folk coming around a month before the election
[09:47] Pat (patroklus.murakami) is Online
[09:47] Pip Torok: hi Rosie
[09:47] Rosie Gray: hi Pip... everyone
[09:47] Rosie Gray: ㋡
[09:47] Shep (shep.titian): In fact we should send out notices .. only 7 days to purchase to be allowed to vote etc
[09:47] Shep (shep.titian): Hi Rosie
[09:47] Rosie Gray smiles
[09:47] Pip Torok agrees strongly
[09:48] You: What is the sense of the body?
[09:49] Callipygian Christensen: thanks Delia
[09:49] Aliasi Stonebender: Seems to be general agreement that the dates you posted are fine.
[09:49] Callipygian Christensen: Ill read quickly..give me a moment please
[09:49] You: Ok.
[09:50] Fern Leissa is Online
[09:51] Fern Leissa is Offline
[09:52] Callipygian Christensen: Done..once again I dont see why we are having this discussion - we debated when the dates start and finish when we addressed this before. Until such time as actual changes occur form RA, that stands in my opinion, and we just apply the same 'rules' to all future eletion dates that we used for the upcoming one
[09:53] You: Thank you Calli.
[09:53] You: Comments?
[09:54] You: Aliasa?
[09:54] DeliaLake Pinion: that the dates beyond the next election would be left as proposed not fixed until the RA completes its citizenship changes makes sense to me
[09:54] Aliasi Stonebender: Pretty much that, yes.
[09:54] You: Is that the consensus?
[09:55] You: I agree.
[09:55] You: That then is the action of the SC.
[09:55] You: That will be reported.
[09:56] DeliaLake Pinion raises her hand
[09:56] You: Delia?
[09:56] DeliaLake Pinion: this is not on the agenda, and not a "to Do" for today but it is election related and I might forget later
[09:57] You: Yes, make your note.
[09:57] DeliaLake Pinion: I think we should next time discuss an alternative to Jon running th election software. just in case something happened and Jon could not do it for any reason
[09:57] DeliaLake Pinion: I'd hate to get caught at the last minute and not be able to hold an election
[09:57] DeliaLake Pinion: sort of a back up
[09:58] You: Who best to help with that?
[09:58] You: You, Aliasa?
[09:58] Pip Torok raises hand
[09:58] You: Lilith, as a member of the inspection group?
[09:59] You: Pip?
[09:59] Aliasi Stonebender: I'm probably too busy to do more than advise, honestly. at least until summer.
[10:00] Pip Torok: may i suggest Jon run a masterclass .. including dry-runs on dummy-data so that a number of avies have that skill? done
[10:00] You: Noted.
[10:00] Aliasi Stonebender: That's help.
[10:00] Aliasi Stonebender: *that'll
[10:01] You: As Dean, I'd like a sub-group to work with the matter.
[10:01] Callipygian Christensen: Gwyn was quite passionate about having the software available in a timely manner - might wantto invite her to be involved in that
[10:02] You: Delia, will you take the lead. You know the most about how its done with Jon. Aliasa as an adviser and Lilith with her knowledge of the citizenship process.
[10:02] You: And invite Gwyn to participate.
[10:02] DeliaLake Pinion: I can contact Jon but really cannot take the lead on this due to heavy rl commitments this spring
[10:03] You: Hmmmm
[10:03] You: Arria? Calli?
[10:03] You: Lilith, who is best qualified?
[10:04] Callipygian Christensen: My focus fro the next while will be on writing and presenting proposed changes to our sturcture and activity
[10:04] Callipygian Christensen: in addition, my tech knowledge and interest are a matching zero..I'd not be a good choice
[10:05] Pat (patroklus.murakami) is Offline
[10:05] DeliaLake Pinion: Soro, I'd ask Lilith and Arria. maybe they could work on this together
[10:05] You: Lets work on that between now and the next meeting?
[10:06] You: It is to be on the agenda for next time.
[10:06] You: Do you all agree?
[10:06] Callipygian Christensen: sure
[10:06] DeliaLake Pinion: yes
[10:06] Aliasi Stonebender: yes.
[10:06] Maddy - Madeleine Bealtainn (maddym3y) is Online
[10:07] You: I agree.
[10:07] You: That will be the action of the SC.
[10:07] You: Now, we turn to the items dealing with the structure of the SC.
[10:08] You: Items 2 & 3.
[10:08] Callipygian Christensen: RL is needing me in just a few minutes
[10:08] You: Ooops, 2 deals with posting candidacy
[10:08] Callipygian Christensen: Soro, did you want me quickly to recap the idea of posting of candidates?
[10:09] You: Yes.
[10:09] You: Then I suggest we postpone until our next meeting.
[10:09] You: Proceed.
[10:09] Callipygian Christensen: From discussions around the concern that not enough candidates might stand, and the debate about automatic extensions to the time for declarations I felt our agreement was thus:
[10:10] Callipygian Christensen: As candidates declare it will be announced in the Forums and by in world notice
[10:11] Callipygian Christensen: The Dean will also post to the Forums and the in world group reminding people how many seats are available and how many candidates have declared
[10:11] Callipygian Christensen: (and my apologies, I was supposed to post this in the Forums after that meeting, and did not do so)
[10:12] Pip Torok raises hand
[10:12] Callipygian Christensen: The piint of this is to encourage people to run, and to have them aware of the need for candidates to come forward
[10:12] You: Wait Pip.
[10:12] You: Calli are you done?
[10:13] Callipygian Christensen: yes
[10:13] You: Pip?
[10:13] Pip Torok: is there a time-limit or time-range for declarations? done
[10:14] Callipygian Christensen: yes, there was no change made to the declaration times..that proposal failed iirc
[10:14] Callipygian Christensen: not sure which RA meeting that was
[10:15] Callipygian Christensen: This notification is the SC's way of trying to assist in educating and getting people to declare within the deadline
[10:16] Pip Torok wd really lke to know the deadline
[10:16] Callipygian Christensen: It's one of the posted dates Pip!
[10:16] DeliaLake Pinion: CDS Election Cycle - Future Key Dates
17th Representative Assembly - 1 June to 30 November 2012
Dean reminds citizens of key dates (suggested) 1 April 2012
Qualification date for citizenship and candidacy 14 April 2012
Notice to Dean (suggested) 21 April 2012
Campaign officially starts 5 May 2012
Polls Open 12 to 19 May 2012
Inaugural Meeting (to select LRA) 26 May 2012
[10:16] Pip Torok: ok ...
[10:16] You: Calli, do you need action by the SC on this proposal?
[10:17] Callipygian Christensen: The SC should adopt it as something we commit to as part of our responsibilities, yes
[10:18] You: Is that the consensus of the SC?
[10:18] Callipygian Christensen: and I vote aye for doing that..and use the same raised arm to wave..RL calls or I get a divorce
[10:18] You: Delia.
[10:18] Callipygian Christensen is Offline
[10:18] Sudane Erato is Online
[10:18] DeliaLake Pinion: I agree with Calli that this should be part of the SC duties
[10:19] DeliaLake Pinion: and we should adopt this process
[10:19] DeliaLake Pinion: re Pip's question, the cut off for declaration has in the past been midnight slt the night before the polls open
[10:20] DeliaLake Pinion: that could be a bit tight for programming and testing though
[10:21] Pip Torok had that in mind when he suggested dry-runs
[10:22] You: Delia, are you suggesting a change?
[10:22] DeliaLake Pinion: no, not right now
[10:22] You: That seems a bit larger than the issue?
[10:22] You: Ok, I agree,
[10:22] You: Aliasa?
[10:24] Aliasi Stonebender: (sorryk, beginning to fade. I agree with Delia.)
[10:24] You: Heh, I was just thinking that.
[10:24] You: That will be the action of the SC.
[10:25] You: I suggest a motion to postpone Item 3, to give Delia time to post her materials.
[10:25] DeliaLake Pinion: yes please
[10:25] You: Aliasa?
[10:26] DeliaLake Pinion: and also I feel it is important to have everyone here for the discussion of SC purpose and structure
[10:26] Aliasi Stonebender: concur.
[10:26] DeliaLake Pinion: Aliasi needs to go to bed now
[10:26] You: Item postponed to the next meeting.
[10:26] You: Before we adjourn -- a date for the next meeting.
[10:26] DeliaLake Pinion: and Calli had to leave, and Lilith and Arria aren't here
[10:26] You: two/Three weeks?
[10:27] Aliasi Stonebender: three weeks might be best.
[10:27] DeliaLake Pinion: that would be Apr 1
[10:27] You: Ahhh, fools day!
[10:28] DeliaLake Pinion: maybe we should all wear fool's caps that day )
[10:28] You: LOL
[10:28] Aliasi Stonebender snickers.
[10:28] You: Yes.
[10:28] You: That will be the day. Time?
[10:29] You: 0900?
[10:29] You: Or will 0800 be best.
[10:29] DeliaLake Pinion: I'm flexible on time that day. Aliasi, what time works for you?
[10:29] You: We are done at a reasonable time for Aliasi.
[10:30] Aliasi Stonebender: well, it really just depends. I'm more an afternoon person, but I can make 8 if I try
[10:30] You: )
[10:30] You: 0800 it is.
[10:31] You: The meeting is adjourned.
[10:31] Aliasi Stonebender passes out
[10:31] You: Thank you all for your presence today.
