SC Transcript 5/5 2012

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Lilith Ivory
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SC Transcript 5/5 2012

Post by Lilith Ivory »

Agenda

Agreement to be recorded and published
Approval of Agenda
Appointment of secretary/archivist

Old Business

1. Dates for 18th, 19th and 20th RA elections - Arria
2. Change of date for compliance with individual land ownership requirement - Calli

New Business

3. Review of the validity of RA meeting held on April 28 - Calli -original flagging and rationale located here:
http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3806

Administrative

4. Election of the 17th RA - SC responsibilities

5. Forum management and moderation
-new registrations
-potential changes to edit & delete abilities for posts

6. SC responsibilities in general

7. Date of next meeting

8. Adjourn

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Summary:

Lilith Ivory got appointed as SC Secretary/Archivist

1. Dates of further RA elections
Arria volunteers to present a list next meeting so it can be approved and published

2. Change of date for compliance with individual land ownership requirement
The date for compliance with individual land ownership requirement got reset to 9 May, 11:59 pm sly
3 in favor, 2 abstentions, the motion carries

3. Review of the validity of RA meeting held on April 28
Delia Lake: I move that the RA meeting of 28 April is an invalid meeting. By having neither a published Agenda on the Forum nor an Agenda with specific issues to be raised, the citizenry unintentionally and without malice were disenfranchised.
3 ayes, 2 nays, the motion carrries

Items 4-6 got moved to the next meeting

7. Date of next meeting:
June 3rd, 8am slt/pst

"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it."
Terry Pratchett
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Re: SC Transcript 5/5 2012

Post by Lilith Ivory »

[8:01] Callipygian Christensen: the agenda is on the box on the table in front of us
[8:02] Soro Dagostino: Hello All
[8:02] Delia Lake: good morning everyone. still rezzing here
[8:02] Patroklus Murakami: hi everyone :)
[8:02] Arria Perreault: Hi everybody
[8:03] Callipygian Christensen: welcome Pat
[8:03] Callipygian Christensen: Aliasi will not be here - RLworkissues
[8:03] Callipygian Christensen: Will give people a minute or two to rez and be able to locate the agenda box :)
[8:04] Delia Lake: and to sit properly, lol
[8:04] Callipygian Christensen: Delia is either having trouble sitting or is modelling her newset outfit
[8:05] Lilith Ivory: I had trouble with those chairs also
[8:06] Callipygian Christensen: Ok - I call this meeting to order and point ut that all government meetings of the CDS are recorded and published - by attending and/orspeaking you give permission to be recorded and publsihed in the Forums
[8:06] Callipygian Christensen: No stampede for the door? :)
[8:06] Delia Lake: permission granted
[8:06] Soro Dagostino: Consent
[8:07] Lilith Ivory: same here
[8:07] Callipygian Christensen: Would those citizens present indicate consent please?
[8:07] Arria Perreault: consent
[8:07] Patroklus Murakami: i'm happy with being recorded
[8:07] Lilith Ivory: if you want me I can post the transcript later o the forum
[8:08] Callipygian Christensen: that should make the appointment of the secretary much easier Lilith :)
[8:08] Lilith Ivory smiles
[8:08] Callipygian Christensen: Tanoujin - when you see the chat, please consent to being recorded and published
[8:08] Tanoujin Milestone: oh, sorry, i consent
[8:08] Callipygian Christensen: ok..the agenda was posted on the Forums and i in the box here - does anyone have any changes?
[8:09] Callipygian Christensen: hearing none, motion to approve the agenda
[8:09] Delia Lake: The agenda looks fine to me
[8:10] Soro Dagostino: so move.
[8:10] Delia Lake: second
[8:10] Callipygian Christensen: ty..all infavour?
[8:10] Callipygian Christensen: aye
[8:10] Soro Dagostino: aye
[8:10] Lilith Ivory: aye :)
[8:10] Delia Lake: aye
[8:10] Arria Perreault: aye
[8:10] Callipygian Christensen: carried
[8:10] Soro Dagostino: Oh damn!
[8:10] Soro Dagostino: I forgot to put that on a notecard.
[8:11] Callipygian Christensen: The next point is admin. but needs to be addressed first - Lilith, were you volunteering to be secretary/archivit?
[8:11] Lilith Ivory: of course :)
[8:11] Arria Perreault: aye to agenda
[8:11] Callipygian Christensen: Does anyone want to arm wrestle her for the honour?
[8:11] Delia Lake: ty Lilith
[8:11] Arria Perreault: and aye to Lilith as secretary/archivist ㋡
[8:12] Delia Lake: aye from me also
[8:12] Callipygian Christensen: I think the job is yours Lilith :) thank you
[8:12] Soro Dagostino: Move Lilith's appointment to Archivist.
[8:12] Lilith Ivory: aawww lol
[8:12] Delia Lake: second and aye again
[8:12] Callipygian Christensen: I ask that you post transcripts in the form that Pat there adopted for RA this term - Agenda at the start, breif summary of any decisions, then the transcript itself
[8:13] Lilith Ivory: yes I can do that :)
[8:13] Lilith Ivory: sounds like a good idea
[8:13] Callipygian Christensen: thank you, it will simplify looking back in research :)
[8:13] Callipygian Christensen: onward
[8:14] Callipygian Christensen: Item 1 - dates of future RAs
[8:14] Soro Dagostino: Madame Dean?
[8:14] Callipygian Christensen: Arria, you were going to identify these dates..did you have time to get them done?
[8:14] Soro Dagostino: Point of Order.
[8:14] Callipygian Christensen: Yes Soro?
[8:14] Soro Dagostino: Is there to be a vote on Lilith's appointment?
[8:15] Callipygian Christensen: Well I believe since its purely administrative we don't need motion andvote..
[8:15] Soro Dagostino: Thank you for the ruling.
[8:15] Callipygian Christensen: but I see motin bck there, and second and multiple ayes to it..
[8:15] Callipygian Christensen: (eager crwod :)
[8:16] Callipygian Christensen: so could we accept her as apponted? all in favour say aye
[8:16] Delia Lake: yes, yes, aye, aye
[8:16] Arria Perreault: aye
[8:16] Soro Dagostino: Aye.
[8:16] Callipygian Christensen: aye
[8:16] Callipygian Christensen: congratualtion Lilith
[8:16] Lilith Ivory: aye or abstain . depending on what is more propper
[8:16] Arria Perreault: thank you Lilith ㋡
[8:16] Lilith Ivory: thank you :)
[8:16] Callipygian Christensen: Arria - back to dates..you have the floor
[8:17] Arria Perreault: thank you
[8:17] Arria Perreault: there is a list of dates calculated by Patroklus in the forums
[8:18] Arria Perreault: this is the basis of the list
[8:18] Arria Perreault: now there are some light changes to make
[8:18] Arria Perreault: adding for example the time (noon)
[8:19] Arria Perreault: I still have to make these changes (for a next meeting)
[8:19] Arria Perreault: then we can approve them and publish them on the portal
[8:19] Callipygian Christensen: Comments from SC members?
[8:19] Arria Perreault: it would be good also to have a system of alerts using our Event Calender
[8:20] Arria Perreault: done
[8:20] Callipygian Christensen: thank you Arria
[8:20] Delia Lake: I am very pleased that this is getting handled and published way ahead of time. ty Arria
[8:20] Lilith Ivory: yes indeed :)
[8:20] Callipygian Christensen: My only concern is that Pat's dates were calculated using a different rationale than was finally used for the current election dates, iirc
[8:20] Lilith Ivory: ty Arria
[8:21] Arria Perreault: that's why I still have to make the adaptations
[8:21] Callipygian Christensen: I believe the *way* to caculate dates was debated here at some length
[8:21] Callipygian Christensen: ah ok, so date changes will also be included..thank you :)
[8:21] Arria Perreault: yes
[8:21] Callipygian Christensen: Thank you Arria..and thank you Pat for doing the original legwork on that
[8:21] Delia Lake: yes. and Arria just said that we will have to approve them when she gets the details integrated
[8:22] Arria Perreault: I would like to have one month to make this work
[8:22] Callipygian Christensen: I'll place this on the next agenda as Old Business then
[8:22] Arria Perreault: ok
[8:22] Callipygian Christensen: Arria..a thank you also for updating the members list of the SC on the portal
[8:22] Arria Perreault: yw ㋡
[8:23] Callipygian Christensen: ok..on to item 2
[8:24] Callipygian Christensen: at our last meeting we passed a motion allowing non-compliant citizens the right to vote if they placed theri land in private owenrship 'before the opening of the polls'
[8:24] Callipygian Christensen: This was an unfortunate oversight on our part, in the timeframe and wording
[8:25] Lilith Ivory nods
[8:25] Callipygian Christensen: Jon Seattle, who prepars the voting booths needs an accuarate list to do so
[8:25] Callipygian Christensen: catch 22 - he can't have the list until we provide it, we cant finalize the list until we know who is compliant
[8:26] Callipygian Christensen: So I suggest we change the date requring compliance to 11.59 PM Wednesday May 9
[8:27] Callipygian Christensen: This allows Jon enough time to prepare the booths to go out o schedule
[8:27] Delia Lake: I wasn't thinking last meeting. I have worked with Jon in the past in getting the voting booths up and running. not only does he need the list to input but also he always needs to test the booth before the polls officially open.
[8:27] Callipygian Christensen: Since those who were non-compliant have had a length of time to comply, I think we can also suggest that a Forum notice and inworld notice of this would be sufficient notification
[8:28] Callipygian Christensen: Would someone care to provide a motion to this effect so that we can open discussion?
[8:29] Delia Lake: I move that we reset the time for citizen compliance to hold their land in an individual name to 9 May 2012, @ 11:59 pm slt
[8:30] Lilith Ivory: I second
[8:30] Callipygian Christensen: thank you both
[8:30] Callipygian Christensen: discussion is open, first to members of the SC then to citizens present
[8:30] Callipygian Christensen: does any SC member wish to comment for or against?
[8:31] Soro Dagostino: me/ Raises hand
[8:31] Callipygian Christensen: Soro
[8:32] Soro Dagostino: I do not think the correction is wrong, I continue to think the compulsion to make group leaders change is violatioin of LL TOR's that allow group ownership.
[8:32] Soro Dagostino: For the record.
[8:33] Callipygian Christensen: Your personal objection is noted Soro, however it is the law of CDS, duly passed
[8:33] Callipygian Christensen: So I hear there a yes for this motion's conent
[8:33] Callipygian Christensen: Anyone else?
[8:34] Lilith Ivory: I just want to add that so far only 4 out of 10 citizens changed their land settings and it does not seem to be likely more will follow anyway
[8:34] Arria Perreault raises hand
[8:34] Callipygian Christensen: Not hearing any other SC members..would any citizens care to ask questions or make a comment?
[8:34] Callipygian Christensen: thank you Lilith
[8:34] Tanoujin Milestone shakes her head
[8:35] Arria Perreault: I did raise the hand ...
[8:35] Callipygian Christensen: sorry Arria..that showed up on my screen after..go ahead
[8:36] Delia Lake notes that sl seems to be rather laggy today
[8:36] Callipygian Christensen: (and welcome Shep)
[8:36] Shep Titian: Thank you .. apologies for late arrrival
[8:36] Arria Perreault: I understand the need of the change, because of technical reasons. If we decide to change the date, we need to publish it immediately and actively after the meeting
[8:37] Lilith Ivory: Hi Shep, by speaking you give your consent to be recorded
[8:37] Arria Perreault: done
[8:37] Patroklus Murakami raises hand
[8:37] Shep Titian: :)
[8:37] Callipygian Christensen: thank you Arria..I agree
[8:37] Callipygian Christensen: Pat?
[8:38] Patroklus Murakami: what arria said :) if we change the date when ppl need to own land to vote then we need to let them know asap
[8:38] Patroklus Murakami: i would suggest contacting them individually
[8:38] Patroklus Murakami: done
[8:38] Lilith Ivory raises hand
[8:38] Delia Lake raises her hand
[8:38] Callipygian Christensen: thank you Pat - I agree we need to ensure they are aware of this potential change if possible.
[8:39] Callipygian Christensen: Lilith first, then Delia
[8:39] Lilith Ivory: we had Trebor do that already after our last meeting - with not much success so far
[8:39] Callipygian Christensen: I believe that is so Lilith, but if we change the deadline, we do need t renotify
[8:39] Lilith Ivory: I agree
[8:39] Callipygian Christensen: to renotify
[8:40] Callipygian Christensen: Delia?
[8:41] Delia Lake: Lilith covered what I was going to say. Has been done to the best of our capabilities
[8:41] Callipygian Christensen: Any further discussion or questions?
[8:42] Callipygian Christensen checks the lag timer
[8:42] Callipygian Christensen: ok then I call for a vote on Delias motion: [08:29] Delia Lake: I move that we reset the time for citizen compliance to hold their land in an individual name to 9 May 2012, @ 11:59 pm slt
[8:42] Callipygian Christensen: all in favour?
[8:42] Lilith Ivory: aye
[8:42] Callipygian Christensen: aye
[8:43] Delia Lake: aye
[8:43] Arria Perreault abstains
[8:43] Soro Dagostino: Abstains
[8:44] Callipygian Christensen: 3 in favour, 2 abstentions, the motion carries
[8:45] Callipygian Christensen: I will post notice of this motion sepearetly from the transcript on the Forums and inworld group
[8:46] Callipygian Christensen: Lilith, could you notify Trebor and work with him to notify individuals by notecard please?
[8:46] Lilith Ivory: yes I will do so
[8:47] Callipygian Christensen: I would like to add a comment..and with 2 RA members here hopefully it will be noted.
[8:47] Callipygian Christensen: In checking to see who had complied and update the Citizen List, I was told that peple have been switching land *back* to groups in some cases
[8:48] Callipygian Christensen: While it is not the concern of the SC what people do with their land, it *is* a concern if there is an expectatin of the level of notification and variances given this time , for future elections
[8:48] Lilith Ivory: yes that´s true, some did already
[8:48] Patroklus Murakami: interesting
[8:49] Shep Titian: Very
[8:49] Callipygian Christensen: It wold be helpful if RA and the Executive make it clear that the law will be upheld and that the actions taken this time were a one-time exception
[8:50] Callipygian Christensen: any additionalcomments from SC members?
[8:50] Arria Perreault raises hand
[8:50] Callipygian Christensen: Arria?
[8:51] Arria Perreault: it is always good to observe how a new rule works and eventually to make cleaver changes. done
[8:52] Callipygian Christensen: very true
[8:52] Callipygian Christensen: ok..on to new business
[8:52] Callipygian Christensen: Item 3 . review of the validity of the RA meeting of April 28
[8:53] Callipygian Christensen: We will open this for discussion, and from that discussion decide if a motion is required
[8:53] Callipygian Christensen: I posted my rationale for flagging this meeting on the Forum
[8:53] Delia Lake: yes
[8:54] Callipygian Christensen: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3806
[8:54] Callipygian Christensen: Ill consider that my comment and invite the SC members each to speak to this
[8:54] Callipygian Christensen: Arria?
[8:54] Soro Dagostino: /raises hand
[8:54] Delia Lake raises her hand
[8:55] Arria Perreault: should we have a motion first?
[8:55] Callipygian Christensen: We'll have everyone speak so after Arria will be Soro then Delia
[8:56] Arria Perreault: i have made some researches on this questions
[8:56] Delia Lake: structured discussion I beleive your email said
[8:56] Callipygian Christensen: I believe we are free to discuss this and decide if a motion is needed. Delia..is that correct? If not we can make a moton
[8:56] Arria Perreault: ok
[8:56] Delia Lake: it is fine
[8:56] Arria Perreault: we have to see different aspects
[8:57] Arria Perreault: 1. publication of the meeting
[8:57] Arria Perreault: 2. publication of the agenda
[8:57] Arria Perreault: 3. presence of the LRA to chair the meeting
[8:58] Arria Perreault: publication of the meeting: the schedule can be predictable and then there a little need to publish it. I don't know if there is a legal obligation to publish it anyway
[8:59] Arria Perreault: agenda: the RA Rules of Procedure are very clear:
[8:59] Arria Perreault: The Leader of the RA (LRA) will determine the proposed agenda for each meeting, and publish it on a notecard and on the forum at least 24 hours before each meeting.
[8:59] Arria Perreault: by the way we can find a lot of meeting without a published agenda. this is not the topic today
[9:01] Arria Perreault: presence of the LRA: the rules of procedures says that the LRA chairs the debates. The Constitution says that the RA may elect a LRA pro tempore in case of absence of the LRA.
[9:02] Arria Perreault: I did not that there was no LRA on this meeting. I have looked the different summaries of RA meetings and I did not find an election of the LRA pro tempore
[9:02] Arria Perreault: maybe other people can correct these facts.
[9:02] Arria Perreault: done for now
[9:02] Patroklus Murakami raises hand
[9:03] Shep Titian: Raises hand
[9:03] Callipygian Christensen: Noted Pat - structured has allSC present their thinking, rbutt or question, then open to the citizens..so you will be first i line
[9:03] Callipygian Christensen: Soro next
[9:04] Arria Perreault: I just wan to say: I have try to find some informations. I am happy when other people can correct or complete them.
[9:04] Soro Dagostino: I submit the question is one of substance vs Procedure.
[9:04] Soro Dagostino: Are we to deny action by the RA because of a failure to meet a procedural rule?
[9:05] Soro Dagostino: I do not believe that to be a correct action.
[9:05] Soro Dagostino: Done.
[9:05] Callipygian Christensen: Delia next
[9:06] Delia Lake: in looking at the issue, I have the following
[9:07] Delia Lake: 1. the only Agenda for that meeting I could find was a general outline in the box upstairs, with no specific issues.
[9:07] Delia Lake: RA Agenda from box in the Praetoreum and available there
Agenda for RA meeting of April 28th. 2012
- Administrative Business
-- Review and approve agenda (5 min.)
-- Speakers on today’s agenda items? (5 min)
- Citizen Concerns (5 min)
- RA Members’ Concerns (5 min)
- Old Business
- New Business
-- Proposals .......
- Commission Reports (5 min)
- Executive Report (10 min)
- General Announcements (5 min)
- Next RA Meeting? (5 min)
- Adjourn
[9:09] Delia Lake: not only does the RA procedures specify that an agenda should be published, it also specifies that both RA and citizens who wish to speak to an issue on the agenda notify the LRA in the beginning admin section of the meeting
[9:09] Delia Lake: without a published agenda that is impossible to do
[9:10] Delia Lake: and according to the procedures, any addition to the agenda is handled as follows: . If the RA membership feels that the LRA has not brought an agenda item to the meeting that they want, a petition agreed to by a majority of all members can insert an agenda item into the list for the next meeting.
[9:11] Delia Lake: furthermore, there were issues raised that had considerable citizen interest
[9:12] Delia Lake: an example is the change to the number of RA to be a permanent number
[9:12] Callipygian Christensen: welcome back Pat
[9:13] Delia Lake: the issue was posted to the forum and drew 2 pages of comments
[9:14] Delia Lake: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2731
[9:14] Delia Lake: so without notification of the agenda, or a meeting date, all of these citizens plus more were denied input to an issue of concern to them
[9:15] Delia Lake: as to the date of the meeting
[9:15] Delia Lake: Arria mentioned that it might not need to be published. I disagree and for these reasons
[9:16] Delia Lake: 1 is that the Constitution requires that the RA meet at least monthly. Although this RA has been meeting every 2 weeks, that might not be assumed to continue without notice
[9:17] Delia Lake: and 2. at the end of the previous RA meeting there was mention of a date, but that could easily have been confused with a date/deadline for submission of proposals for the new sim. see http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3791
[9:18] Delia Lake: toward the end of the meeting transcript from 11 Apr, RA
[9:19] Delia Lake: and 3. two instances is insufficient data to be a trend, but there was no agenda published for that 11 Apr meeting either, and Rosie noted in a transcript reply that she had not attended becasue she was not aware of the meeting
[9:20] Delia Lake: So my opinion is
[9:20] Delia Lake: that the RA meeting of 28 April is an invalid meeting. For purposes of Legislative action, votes should be voided and the meeting should be treated as informational only, similarly to one where there is no quorum. By having neither a published Agenda on the Forum nor an Agenda with specific issues to be raised, the citizenry unintentionally and without malice were disenfranchised. Neither RA members nor citizens had an opportunity to consider what issues raised might mean to them and to prepare to offer thoughtful input.
[9:21] Callipygian Christensen: thank you Delia
[9:21] Callipygian Christensen: Lilith?
[9:21] Lilith Ivory: for me it is quite easy ....
[9:21] Lilith Ivory: The Representative Assembly Rules of Procedure say:
1. Agenda
3. The Leader of the RA (LRA) will determine the proposed agenda for each meeting, and publish it on a notecard and on the forum at least 24 hours before each meeting. It is expected that all members will suggest agenda items, but the LRA will prepare the final draft. If the RA membership feels that the LRA has not brought an agenda item to the meeting that they want, a petition agreed to by a majority of all members can insert an agenda item into the list for the next meeting.
4. Every agenda for the RA shall be based on a schedule of a maximum of 2 hours, with no less than a 10 minute open discussion time allowed at the end and no less than 10 minutes of administrative time set at the beginning.
http://portal.slcds.info/index.php/faq/ ... procedure/
even if Anna had hardware problems she should have asked another RA member to post an agenda and inform the Ra and citizens in time.
[9:22] Lilith Ivory: I don´t see any reason why to make an exception from the rules of procedure as writen above.
[9:22] Lilith Ivory: and I agree with all Delia said before

[9:22] Callipygian Christensen: thank you Lilith
[9:23] Callipygian Christensen: ok..at this point thee is an opportunity for a *breif* rebuttal/clarification from each SC member
[9:23] Callipygian Christensen: same order..so I will begin
[9:23] Callipygian Christensen: I suggest that the SC doesn't get to choose when we feel procedure should be enforced and when it shouldnt..
[9:24] Callipygian Christensen: the whole purpose of procedure is to give the citizens a clear understanding of how government works and protect their right to hear and be heard
[9:25] Callipygian Christensen: Our role , imo, is to uphold procedure. In addition, meeting dates have been stated in transcripts and not held before, so I dont think that is fair notification.
[9:26] Callipygian Christensen: Regarding pro tempore LRA, I believe Shep was elected as such at the first RA meeting and have no concern about the validity of her chairing any RA meetings as needed
[9:27] Callipygian Christensen: Arria..you next :)
[9:29] Callipygian Christensen: Arria?
[9:29] Callipygian Christensen: Soro, go ahead ..Arria may be lagged or crashing
[9:29] Arria Perreault: Thank you. I share your opinions regarding procedures. The publication in time of an agenda is the most important point to me. The publication of the date is also important, especially if there is no other way to know when the next meeting happens. The presence of the LRA is also important during the meeting. I note that someone was elected, but I had also the feeling the meeting was not chaired.
[9:30] Callipygian Christensen: oh..she was typing
[9:30] Callipygian Christensen: thank you Arria..anything further?
[9:30] Arria Perreault: The rules of procedures are an important frame to insure that all our decisions are taken with the needed transparency and to give to all citizen a chance to give their oipnions.
[9:31] Arria Perreault: done
[9:31] Callipygian Christensen: thank you..Soro?
[9:31] Soro Dagostino: I disagree -- the rule is procedural and should not tip the substantive.
[9:32] Callipygian Christensen: anything further Soro?
[9:32] Soro Dagostino: When I think of the times when agendas were not published on time, half the laws of CDS are up for termination
[9:32] Arria Perreault has an other question
[9:32] Arria Perreault: or remark
[9:32] Callipygian Christensen: Arria..we will let the others finish
[9:33] Arria Perreault: like Soro, I am not sure that failures in the respect of procedures should invalidate the taken decision. DO we have other option like blame officially the RA?
[9:33] Callipygian Christensen coughs
[9:33] Callipygian Christensen: If we go into a free for all, this will get unweidly..let the others finish first
[9:34] Soro Dagostino: Point of order.
[9:34] Callipygian Christensen: Soro..anything further?
[9:34] Soro Dagostino: Memebers of the SC have a right to speak before the audience.
[9:34] Callipygian Christensen: Correct
[9:35] Callipygian Christensen: I am not sure I understand your point Soro?
[9:35] Soro Dagostino: Your cutting Arria off.
[9:35] Callipygian Christensen: You have the floor..Delia and Lilith will follow you
[9:35] Soro Dagostino: Thank you.
[9:35] Lilith Ivory nods
[9:35] Soro Dagostino: Done.
[9:35] Callipygian Christensen: This is structured debate Soro - Arria indicated she was done, you have the floor
[9:36] Soro Dagostino: I made my point.
[9:36] Callipygian Christensen: thank you Soro
[9:36] Callipygian Christensen: Delia..anything to add?
[9:37] Delia Lake: This is not a matter of the Agenda not being published in a timely matter. The Agenda for this meeting was not published at all. Neither were the issues to be addressed available upon ariving at the meeting itself, via notice to CDS group sent after the meeting started
[9:37] Delia Lake: the effect was to deny citizen input to issues of import
[9:38] Callipygian Christensen: anythign further Delia?
[9:38] Delia Lake: this is not to lay blame but to state clearly that if we are to have a representational democracy, the citizenry must know what issues are going to be raised and votes likely to be taken ahead of time in order for them to either attend a meeting or contact their elected officials to voice their concerns and opinions
[9:39] Delia Lake: so i reiterate my opinion. It is my opinion that the RA meeting of 28 April is an invalid meeting. For purposes of Legislative action, votes should be voided and the meeting should be treated as informational only, similarly to one where there is no quorum. By having neither a published Agenda on the Forum nor an Agenda with specific issues to be raised, the citizenry unintentionally and without malice were disenfranchised. Neither RA members nor citizens had an opportunity to consider what issues raised might mean to them and to prepare to offer thoughtful input.
[9:39] Callipygian Christensen: thank you Delia
[9:39] Callipygian Christensen: Lilith..anything to add?
[9:39] Lilith Ivory: yes :)
[9:39] Lilith Ivory: So far we never did us (the CDS) a favor by making exceptions of the laws and our rules. Also discussing those items again might give more citizens a chance to take part. I´m not even sure if it is legal to make constitutional amendments within only one meeting.
[9:40] Lilith Ivory: so for me this meeting was invalit also
[9:40] Callipygian Christensen: thank you Lilith
[9:40] Callipygian Christensen: I'll answer Arria then open up to citizen input
[9:40] Callipygian Christensen: Arria, I dont believe we have an option to 'tell RA off' in effect, but say ok, the laws are fine so we let it pass
[9:41] Callipygian Christensen: It is my understanding that we either say valid or invalid - *what* was passed is immaterial, since it could as easily have been a vote to selll off the sims etc.
[9:41] Callipygian Christensen: We cant say 'procedure isnt necessary for 'good' laws' and so on
[9:42] Callipygian Christensen: To answe Soro..since the laws you mention were not flagged in the 48 hour timeframe placed on the SC, they all still stand
[9:42] Callipygian Christensen: Now..Pat..you were first :)
[9:42] Patroklus Murakami: ty dean :)
[9:43] Patroklus Murakami: i find myself in agreement with soro which is .... interesting :)
[9:43] Patroklus Murakami: the meeting was not advertised perfectly in line iwth the RA rules of procedure
[9:43] Patroklus Murakami: this was due to the problems with the LRAs computer
[9:43] Tanoujin Milestone: the law that procedures do not matter if there is any substance
[9:44] Tanoujin Milestone: oooops
[9:44] Tanoujin Milestone: sorry
[9:44] Patroklus Murakami: of course someone else should have stpepped in but i was not aware there was a problem
[9:44] Patroklus Murakami: and annas computer problem made communicaiton difficult
[9:44] Patroklus Murakami: the meeting was advertised on teh forums here:
[9:45] Patroklus Murakami: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 791#p19640
[9:45] Delia Lake raises her hand again
[9:45] Patroklus Murakami: and the constituional amendment to set the RA at five seats was notified as being on the agenda here:
[9:45] Patroklus Murakami: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... =15#p19667
[9:46] Patroklus Murakami: as has been noted, shep was elected LRA pro tem at our first meeting
[9:46] Patroklus Murakami: and the RA can indeed pass a constitutional amendment at one meeting, and has done so many times in the past
[9:46] Patroklus Murakami: in summary, if you want to declare the meeting void you can
[9:46] Patroklus Murakami: and you have grounds to do so
[9:47] Patroklus Murakami: but i think that would be disproportionate given the meeting was known, and items flagged for debate
[9:47] Patroklus Murakami: or added in line with the rules
[9:47] Patroklus Murakami: the RA passed laws in good faith and i would remind you that the RA are elected
[9:47] Patroklus Murakami: and have validity due to their election
[9:47] Patroklus Murakami: so the SC should tread carefully in voiding our actions
[9:48] Patroklus Murakami: done :)
[9:48] Callipygian Christensen: Thank you for your comments and warning Pat :)
[9:48] Callipygian Christensen: Delia..Ill give Shep and Tanoujin their time forst
[9:48] Callipygian Christensen: Shep?
[9:48] Shep Titian: I don't have a lot to add ..
[9:49] Shep Titian: Anna asked me to start off the meeting .. so she obviously felt she would get there
[9:50] Shep Titian: She did'nt .. nor was the agenda done .. but it was her computers fault .. not any disregard for the rules
[9:50] Shep Titian: Done
[9:50] Callipygian Christensen: thank you..Tanoujin?
[9:50] Tanoujin Milestone: I apologize for posting in the wrong window. No further comment.
[9:50] Callipygian Christensen: ok..Delia?
[9:51] Arria Perreault raises hand
[9:51] Delia Lake: The place that people look for meeting dates for the RA is Representative Assembly Announcements. 2. In the most recent posting on the Forum in Representative Assembly Announcements section regarding a meeting of the RA is one for “Next RA Meeting is March 17 at 9 am” Included in that meeting announcement is a link to specific proposed legislation that would be raised giving both RA members and citizens an opportunity to think about issues ahead of time.
[9:51] Delia Lake: there was no posting of the most recent RA meetings there at all
[9:52] Shep Titian: Hi Trbor
[9:52] Delia Lake: citizens should not have to spend time sifting through Forum threads hunting for when meetings might occur
[9:52] Trebor Warcliffe: Hi
[9:52] Callipygian Christensen: welcome Trebor
[9:52] Lilith Ivory: welcome Trebor :) by talking you give consent to be recorded :)
[9:52] Trebor Warcliffe: yes
[9:53] Delia Lake: as to the end of the 11 Apr RA meeting, the mention of 28 Apr could be seen to be ambiguous
[9:53] Patroklus Murakami: "3. The RA agreed to meet again at 9am SLT on Saturday 28 April in the Praetorium, Colonia Nova."
[9:53] Delia Lake: Shep Titian: From where I'm sitting the rest of this agenda is unworkable
Beathan Vale: so it seems
Patroklus Murakami: do we know how many sim design proposals there are? i've only seen one from beathan
Shep Titian: How are we feeling on aborting?
Beathan Vale: I move that sim proposals be published on the forums and by notecard distrubution and that we discuss them on the RA forums, allowing public input on the general forum
Shep Titian: As far as I know Anna has been working on the criteria for tender
Shep Titian: ]I second Beathan
Shep Titian: Vote please
Beathan Vale: aye
Shep Titian: Aye
Patroklus Murakami: aye
Shep Titian: Good then that part is official;ly moved to forum
Shep Titian: Seems we have no exec to report either
Shep Titian: Ok .. next meeting date
Patroklus Murakami: can we discuss the group citizens issue before we adjourn?
Beathan Vale: When is the official date for sim consideration? the 28th?
Shep Titian: 28th April at 9 am??
Beathan Vale: yes and yes
Patroklus Murakami: i'm fine with
[9:53] Delia Lake: that date and time
Shep Titian: good .. lets hope that will be better attended
Fern Leissa:
Shep Titian: So datew and time set at 9 am on 28th April
Patroklus Murakami: i move we ask the SC to rule on whether people who own land with a group title (and have not switched it to individual) should be allowed to vote in teh coming elections
Beathan Vale: second
Shep Titian: I think we should adjourn .. but make ourselves available for questions from the floor
Shep Titian: So ayes for adjourn and date
Shep Titian: Aye
Beathan Vale: let's vote on Pat's motion first
Patroklus Murakami: aye. i'll let soro know about our request for a ruling
Shep Titian: Sorry
Beathan Vale: aye and aye
Patroklus Murakami: oh, i thought we had!
Patroklus Murakami: but... aye and aye!
Shep Titian: An aye for your propsal anyway Pat
Shep Titian: Ok troops /.. done
[9:53] Patroklus Murakami: *not* ambiguous
[9:54] Delia Lake: the transcript there mentions both the possible meeting AND the deadline for the proposals for the new sim
[9:54] Delia Lake: Beathan Vale: When is the official date for sim consideration? the 28th?
Shep Titian: 28th April at 9 am??
[9:54] Patroklus Murakami: i'm quoting from the summary, very definitive
[9:55] Delia Lake: my quotes are taken directly from that transcript
[9:55] Callipygian Christensen: I will interrupt here a moment
[9:55] Patroklus Murakami: Summary:
1. The RA agreed that new sim proposals should be published on the forums and distributed by notecard with discussion to continue on the forums.
Ayes - Beathan, Patroklus, Shep. Anna and Rosie have 7-days to cast their votes.
2. The RA asked the SC to rule on whether people who own land with a group title (and have not switched it to individual) should be allowed to vote in the coming elections. (The SC has agreed to discuss this at its meeting on 15 April).
Ayes - Beathan, Patroklus, Shep. Anna and Rose have 7-day votes.
3. The RA agreed to meet again at 9am SLT on Saturday 28 April in the Praetorium, Colonia Nova."
[9:56] Delia Lake: but again, people look to the Representative Assembly Announcements for meeting date announcements and neither the 11 Apr nor the 28 Apr meetings with Agendas are there
[9:56] Arria Perreault: any reason, Calli? (we meet since 2 hours already)
[9:56] Callipygian Christensen: A previous meeting was also 'announced' at the end of a transcript, was never held, a whole thread addressed it having been forgotten
[9:56] Callipygian Christensen: For excatly that reason Arria :)
[9:57] Callipygian Christensen: So I think meeting announcement that way is questionable.
[9:57] Callipygian Christensen: Other mebers of the SC..do you have breif further comments on this matter?
[9:57] Arria Perreault: I do have
[9:57] Callipygian Christensen: Arria..go ahead
[9:58] Arria Perreault: Pat has given some evidences that this meeting and its content was not secret
[9:58] Arria Perreault: the RA is also elected and this fact legitimate its action
[9:59] Arria Perreault: on the other side, the rules of procedures were clearly not respected
[9:59] Arria Perreault: I think that we don't have to mix the spirit and the words of the laws
[9:59] Arria Perreault: it seems to me disproportionnate to cancel the decisions of this meeting
[10:00] Arria Perreault: not to talk about looking back if all RA meetings were well announced and if all agenda were published
[10:00] Arria Perreault: done
[10:00] Callipygian Christensen: thank you..anyone else?
[10:01] Callipygian Christensen: Clearly there are differeing views here, in part based on whether it is ok to ignore the procedures if the elected RA had no intention of harm and the laws were reasonable.
[10:02] Shep Titian: Raises hand
[10:02] Callipygian Christensen: I will point out, in response to Pat to some dgress, that the role of the SC is to ensure that those *electred* behave in a manner that follows the laws, procedures and constitutuion of CDS
[10:03] Callipygian Christensen: Our role, to speak to Arria's comment is also not to decide the sporit of the law - that was very sepcifically removed form the SC"s mandate some years ago..
[10:04] Callipygian Christensen: If we are to say this situation has extenuating circumstances..will the same apply when coputer trouble or some toher method is *intentionally* used to avoid the rules of procedure?
[10:05] Callipygian Christensen: The SC is not meant to decide the validity of a cause ..and that may be unfrotunate, but I believe is the case
[10:05] Callipygian Christensen: . Shep?
[10:05] Shep Titian: This confusion was a direct result of LRA's computer problems and NOT a case of ignoring proceedure ....
[10:06] Callipygian Christensen: That is not in dispute Shep..but potentially in the future any number of 'good reasons' for not follwing the rules may occur
[10:06] Soro Dagostino: And that means we can invalidate every law passed in such a circumstance?
[10:07] Soro Dagostino: Oh the power!
[10:07] Arria Perreault: yes, this is the danger of such a decision, Calli
[10:07] Arria Perreault: we can find many examples looking back in the forums
[10:07] Callipygian Christensen: It isn't the SC's responsibility what laws are heard or passed imo..yours may certainly vary
[10:07] Shep Titian: Or search for a reason toinvalidate a llaw passed you don't like ... it goes on and on .. p[lease draw a line :)
[10:08] Shep Titian: Done
[10:08] Callipygian Christensen: In legal terms i think its something about ill
[10:08] Delia Lake: the SC can only invalidate a law that 1. is flagged within the 48 hr period with a public announcement of such
[10:08] Callipygian Christensen: Shep..laws have to be flagged within 24 hours
[10:08] Callipygian Christensen: oops..48
[10:09] Delia Lake: and 2. invalidate for grounds, not for wishes or desires
[10:09] Callipygian Christensen: and can only be flagged with a rationale explainging why
[10:09] Callipygian Christensen: I'd add that it isn't 'oh the power' but 'oh the balance of power'
[10:09] Shep Titian: I was alluding to searching for reasons .. in responce to saying RA could ignore protocol in future and make up an excuse
[10:10] Callipygian Christensen: I think we have debated this to its limit
[10:10] Callipygian Christensen: Two members of the SC were clear that they wish to invalidate the meeeting, one seems in flux..Delia..you worded your oopinion as a motion
[10:11] Callipygian Christensen: would you care to propose it?
[10:13] Delia Lake: It is my opinion that the RA meeting of 28 April is an invalid meeting. By having neither a published Agenda on the Forum nor an Agenda with specific issues to be raised, the citizenry unintentionally and without malice were disenfranchised. Neither RA members nor citizens had an opportunity to consider what issues raised might mean to them and to prepare to offer thoughtful input.
[10:13] Delia Lake: I move that the RA meeting of 28 April is an invalid meeting. By having neither a published Agenda on the Forum nor an Agenda with specific issues to be raised, the citizenry unintentionally and without malice were disenfranchised. Neither RA members nor citizens had an opportunity to consider what issues raised might mean to them and to prepare to offer thoughtful input.
[10:13] Callipygian Christensen: Is there a second?
[10:13] Lilith Ivory: I second
[10:14] Callipygian Christensen: Is there any further debate form members of the SC ?
[10:14] Arria Perreault: /I have
[10:15] Callipygian Christensen: Arria go ahead
[10:16] Arria Perreault: I think that it is exagerate to say that "Neither RA members nor citizens had an opportunity to consider what issues raised might mean to them and to prepare to offer thoughtful input."
[10:16] Arria Perreault: the issues were known in the forum
[10:16] Arria Perreault: and already in discussion
[10:17] Arria Perreault: the procedures were not respected. that's the only fact that we can give as reason
[10:17] Arria Perreault: done
[10:18] Delia Lake: but it was not known that there was a meeting of the RA with those on the Agenda as neither the date nor the Agenda were published officially
[10:18] Callipygian Christensen: so are you asking that the motion be amended Arria?
[10:18] Delia Lake: so for all the citizenry knew those issues would have been continued to be discussed in the Forum
[10:18] Arria Perreault: I would erase the last sentence
[10:19] Callipygian Christensen: Arria moves to amend the motion..is there a seconder?
[10:19] Delia Lake: yes, I am ok with the last sentence being removed
[10:19] Soro Dagostino: I second, to get to the end of this discussion.
[10:19] Callipygian Christensen: all in favour of amending the motion?
[10:20] Delia Lake: aye
[10:20] Soro Dagostino: Aye.l
[10:20] Lilith Ivory: aye
[10:20] Callipygian Christensen: aye
[10:20] Arria Perreault: aye
[10:20] Callipygian Christensen: The motion now reads as it was, with the last sentence deleted
[10:20] Soro Dagostino: Call the Question
[10:20] Callipygian Christensen: All inf favour?
[10:20] Delia Lake: aye
[10:20] Lilith Ivory: aye
[10:21] Callipygian Christensen: aye
[10:21] Arria Perreault: nay
[10:21] Soro Dagostino: nay
[10:21] Callipygian Christensen: 3 ayes, 2 nays, the motion carrries
[10:22] Callipygian Christensen: In view of the time..I would like agreement to stirke items 5 and 6 and add to the next agenda
[10:22] Callipygian Christensen: are there any objections..they are purely admin items
[10:22] Lilith Ivory: fine with me
[10:22] Delia Lake: agree
[10:22] Arria Perreault: agree
[10:22] Callipygian Christensen: thank you..so done
[10:22] Callipygian Christensen: item 7..next meeting
[10:23] Delia Lake: I do have a further comment re the RA meetings though
[10:23] Callipygian Christensen: Delia ..go ahead
[10:23] Delia Lake: the RA can announce publicly its meeting of 12 May with a specific agenda and officially pass the removal of term limits and the 5 member RA if they so wish
[10:24] Patroklus Murakami: i would imagine we will be doing that
[10:24] Delia Lake: the intent of the SC is not to prevent the RA from passing laws and with proper procedure they can certainly redo
[10:24] Callipygian Christensen: I would expect and hope that they do so

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Re: SC Transcript 5/5 2012

Post by Lilith Ivory »

[10:24] Arria Perreault: what do we get then today ? ....
[10:25] Callipygian Christensen: Next meeting...the 19th, 20, th..that is a holdiay weeeknd in Canada..
[10:25] Arria Perreault: a remind of rules would have been enough ...
[10:25] Callipygian Christensen: when does the US holiday fall..that weekend or the following?
[10:26] Delia Lake: yes the following weekend is Memorial Day weekend in the US
[10:26] Trebor Warcliffe: Which holiday?
[10:26] Soro Dagostino: Just a procedural one.
[10:26] Callipygian Christensen: Shall we say June 2nd or 3rd then..barring something requiring a meeting in the interim?
[10:27] Delia Lake: May 26-28 Memorial Day weekend in the US
[10:27] Shep Titian: Hi Ranma
[10:28] Ranma Tardis: hello
[10:28] Callipygian Christensen: SC members..does one or the other of those dates work for you?
[10:28] Lilith Ivory: Hi Ranma
[10:28] Lilith Ivory: all work for me :)
[10:28] Delia Lake: either would work for me
[10:28] Callipygian Christensen: Soro, Arria?
[10:28] Ranma Tardis: Hi Lilith
[10:28] Arria Perreault: 2nd, 3rd June should work for me
[10:29] Arria Perreault: do we meet to validate the election results?
[10:29] Soro Dagostino: Ok by me.
[10:29] Callipygian Christensen: June 3rd, 8 AM SLT/PST then
[10:29] Callipygian Christensen: No need Arria - we just announce them :)
[10:29] Delia Lake: we do have to certify the election results but that does not have to be via meeting like this
[10:30] Arria Perreault: we make the certification by mail?
[10:30] Delia Lake: if we have found no irregularities in the results which we get via email we have in the past certified them
[10:31] Delia Lake: and then posted to the Forum and to the group announcements inworld
[10:31] Callipygian Christensen: I will receive them from Jon and notify you all
[10:31] Callipygian Christensen: (apparently item 4 should have stayed :)
[10:31] Callipygian Christensen: With no further business I move to adjourn
[10:32] Delia Lake: second
[10:32] Arria Perreault: aye
[10:32] Callipygian Christensen: all in favour?
[10:32] Delia Lake: aye
[10:32] Callipygian Christensen: aye
[10:32] Lilith Ivory: aye
[10:32] Soro Dagostino: Aye
[10:32] Arria Perreault: I have to run
[10:32] Arria Perreault: bye bye all
[10:32] Delia Lake: bye Arria
[10:32] Callipygian Christensen: Thank you to the citizens who spoke today and for everyones patience

"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it."
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Re: SC Transcript 5/5 2012

Post by Callipygian »

I was asked to clarify a comment made during the SC meeting that may have suggested that the RA meeting of April 28th did not have a chair. This is incorrect; the pro tempore LRA, Shep Titian was present and chaired the meeting.

People often say that, in a democracy, decisions are made by a majority of the people. Of course, that is not true. Decisions are made by a majority of those who make themselves heard and who vote -- a very different thing.

Walter H. Judd
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