Agenda - Sunday July 15 2012 - 8 AM SLT/PST
Agreement to be recorded and published
Approval of Agenda
General discussion of administrative items
1. Duties of Dean
2. Transition of members to term-limited positions
3. Forum administration/management/moderation
4. Date of next meeting
5. Adjourn
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Transcript:
Callipygian Christensen: well, with you and I we are quorate 
[08:04] Callipygian Christensen: let's goahead and hammer out a few of these things and if others show up they can join in
[08:05] Delia Lake: ok
[08:05] Callipygian Christensen: Delia..do you agree to be recorded and published!
[08:06] Delia Lake: yes
[08:06] Callipygian Christensen: Today is general discussion, since no petitions or matters of legislation need to be addressed.
[08:06] Callipygian Christensen: morning Soro
[08:06] Delia Lake: hi Soro
[08:07] Callipygian Christensen: Last meeting we collected the general duties of SC members, so on to the Dean
[08:07] Soro Dagostino: Goodmorning -- sorry I am late
[08:07] Callipygian Christensen: np Soro, just getting started - I assume you agree to recording and being published
[08:07] Soro Dagostino: yes
[08:08] Callipygian Christensen: so, duties of the Dean - post them to chat and I'll collect them and post to Forums (when they are fixed) for discussion and polishing up
[08:08] Callipygian Christensen: with only three of us, no need to take turns, just fire away
[08:09] Delia Lake: well generally, the duties of the Dean fall into the category of managing the process I'd say
[08:09] Callipygian Christensen nods, I'd agree with that
[08:10] Soro Dagostino: nods
[08:10] Delia Lake: to make sure SC address issues within its purview in a timely manner, hold appropriate public meetings, publish findings
[08:11] Delia Lake: keep on task and topic during meetings
[08:11] Callipygian Christensen: For meetings I'd put: Schedule meetings, create the agenda, ensure notification of meetings goes to the citizenry, chair the meeting
[08:11] Callipygian Christensen nods
[08:11] Soro Dagostino: Understand parlimentary procedure
[08:11] Delia Lake: encourage public to keep up to date on issues that affect them
[08:11] Delia Lake: yes
[08:12] Callipygian Christensen: that one is an interesting one Soro - there is a huge description of how meetings are to be run that is unweildy, but nowhere is there mention of Roberts' or any other rules of order
[08:13] Soro Dagostino: Then the body can chose
[08:13] Soro Dagostino: choose*
[08:13] Callipygian Christensen: I would guess that is because many are not familiar with them, and there was no desire for meetings to bog down in hair pslitting over Rules
[08:13] Delia Lake: what would work best, be most fair and effective but not cumbersome?
[08:13] Soro Dagostino: There is a limited procedural guide published by the American Bar Association
[08:14] Soro Dagostino: I can issues the relevant pages for consideration.
[08:14] Delia Lake: I'm not familiar with that, Soro. is there a link where I might read it?
[08:14] Soro Dagostino: Need some time to prepare them for this platform.
[08:14] Delia Lake: ok
[08:15] Soro Dagostino: I have the materials, I will need to scan and publish.
[08:15] Callipygian Christensen: What would you both think of a set of rules laid out specific to us, based on what Soro provides, and with the Dean having discretion to modify aspects that are found to be non-productive?
[08:15] Soro Dagostino: Comes with being an RL Certified Parlimentarian
[08:16] Delia Lake: ok. that might be helpful input
[08:16] Soro Dagostino: I disagree. The Dean is as bound as the rest of the body
[08:17] Callipygian Christensen nods, then a need to be clear and specific, without being overly formal
[08:17] Soro Dagostino: Once adopted they are changed by the rule of the body.
[08:17] Delia Lake: yes
[08:17] Soro Dagostino: Not unilateral decision by a chair.
[08:17] Delia Lake: right now what we have is a hodge podge
[08:17] Callipygian Christensen nods - and a change can be supported during a meeting if the majority agrees,, so that achieves what I was looking for
[08:18] Soro Dagostino: There is a specific motion for that.
[08:18] Callipygian Christensen: exactly Delia - and not a productive hodge podge
[08:18] Delia Lake: agreed
[08:19] Delia Lake: so we need to have procedures for handling a number of different issues
[08:19] Callipygian Christensen: ok - Soro, when might you be able to provide the background documents for that?
[08:19] Soro Dagostino: The material in in my RL Law office. It will take a couple of days to fit it into my RL schedule
[08:20] Delia Lake: np, and that would be very helpful,. Soro
[08:22] Delia Lake: some of the processes and issues we need to address are: handling of RA legislation we flag, disposiiton of requests for findings from citizens or even from the Exec or RA,
[08:22] Callipygian Christensen nods
[08:22] Delia Lake: dispute resolution regarding Constitutional matters
[08:23] Callipygian Christensen: I think we also need it clear at what level the public can participate in SC meetings
[08:23] Delia Lake: we also have to have published processes for meetings, when and on what citizen input and comments will be solicited during meetings
[08:23] Delia Lake: lol, same
[08:24] Callipygian Christensen: the SC is not like the RA, and people dont always realize that
[08:24] Callipygian Christensen: LOL..get out of my haiyd!
[08:24] Delia Lake: hehe
[08:25] Callipygian Christensen: While the RA is required to consider the input of citizens, the SC is actually required to only consider the Consitution and Laws
[08:25] Delia Lake: we also need to specify when we should be using the SC discussion thread on the Forum as preliminary to effective and efficient address of issues during meetings
[08:26] Callipygian Christensen: So if citizens want to argue interpretation of the Constitution that is fine, if they want to lobby for 'what I'd do is' , not so much
[08:26] Delia Lake: and for a while we were hosting monthly inworld public "ask the SC" community meetings
[08:26] Callipygian Christensen: yes Delia, and that will tie inn with duties of SC members
[08:27] Callipygian Christensen: any additonal thoughts on what procedures need to be included Soro?
[08:28] Soro Dagostino: I don't totally agree that the SC members are to be in community meetings.
[08:29] Delia Lake: not saying we should or should not, just that it has been done
[08:29] Soro Dagostino: The matters of concern are initiated by the SC or on official petiton by the citizens.
[08:29] Soro Dagostino: Otherwise it gets to be a name calling contest.
[08:31] Callipygian Christensen: When asked for an opinion on something at RA or anywhere else, I always say I can't speak for the SC, but my personal opinion is that..
[08:32] Callipygian Christensen: I don't thik ask the SC sessions are a bad thing, although I am not sure what they accomplish unless they are only on specific things about procedure and so on
[08:32] Callipygian Christensen: something to consider as a possibility though
[08:33] Callipygian Christensen: ok.back to duties of the Dean
[08:33] Soro Dagostino: Commissions such as the recent ones do work.
[08:33] Soro Dagostino: Specific targets.
[08:33] Callipygian Christensen: we have specific dutes for the Dean regarding the Election proces
[08:34] Delia Lake: yes
[08:34] Soro Dagostino: I think a lot of that should be with the administrative offices of the Chancellor.
[08:35] Soro Dagostino: As to the voting machines and citizen registration.
[08:35] Delia Lake: I think we have to make some distinctions here that have not been made clearly enough
[08:35] Callipygian Christensen: well it was moved to us rom the Chancellor once that position became an elected one
[08:35] Delia Lake: yes, Calli
[08:35] Soro Dagostino: Vetting candidates is an SC function.
[08:35] Callipygian Christensen: I believe adminstration of the process is our role
[08:36] Delia Lake: the actual voting cannot be under someone who is on the ballot imo
[08:36] Soro Dagostino: I don't agree
[08:36] Soro Dagostino: I think it an administrative job.
[08:36] Soro Dagostino: The vote count is the SC.
[08:37] Soro Dagostino: But setting up the machines and taking care of administrative details is not.
[08:37] Callipygian Christensen: well what we feel is or isnt our role is actually not a factor, since it is our role by law I believe
[08:38] Soro Dagostino: As to many things in life, Calli, we do disagree.
[08:38] Soro Dagostino: Then the law should be changed
[08:39] Callipygian Christensen: well as a citizen you can certainly put hat forward Soro - but in our SC activity, we have to go with what is on the books
[08:39] Soro Dagostino: I believe the body can comment.
[08:40] Soro Dagostino: SC is not a cipher to matters of concern
[08:41] Callipygian Christensen: Iagree with Delia that laying out a clear description of *what* we interpret our role to include would help
[08:42] Callipygian Christensen: We can comment Soro, yes..but i believe it was the SC's comments that led to the current protocols
[08:42] Callipygian Christensen: Do you recall if that is so Delia?
[08:43] Delia Lake: yes. in some part. the RA had passed a law that would have put the SC in charge not only of voting and vote
[08:44] Delia Lake: counting but also campaigning. I objectedstrongly to the campaigning
[08:44] Delia Lake: that is not by any stretch within the purview of the SC
[08:44] Soro Dagostino: I recall that dispute.
[08:44] Callipygian Christensen nods..ok, that is what I was trying to remeber
[08:45] Soro Dagostino: One of the reasons I believe the "voting machine" process is an administrative task that has no basis in reasoned concerns.
[08:46] Callipygian Christensen: That needs to be spelled out clearly in whatever procedural documents we create
[08:46] Soro Dagostino: I agree with that.
[08:47] Callipygian Christensen: well the mechanisms of voting are traditionally in the hands of a neutral group in RL - adnd we are really the only neutral body in CDS..so I have no problem with the voting booths being part of the SC duties
[08:48] Callipygian Christensen: I was asked, and refused, to place some campaign signs in the last election though, and my explanation of why that wasn't possible would have been easier if I could have said 'here is tehe link to the procedures'
[08:49] Soro Dagostino: Let the record show we clearly disagree on that issue
[08:49] Callipygian Christensen: Certainly Soro. Since it is a current duty though, we will include the procedure in our documents, until such time as the law changes.
[08:49] Soro Dagostino: I do agree that the admin is responsible for the election advertising process.
[08:50] Soro Dagostino: Is that your dictate?
[08:50] Soro Dagostino: Or the action of the body?
[08:50] Callipygian Christensen: How do you mean 'my dictate'?
[08:50] Soro Dagostino: "we will include"
[08:51] Callipygian Christensen: Since the documentation is to reflect the duties of the SC, and that is a current legislated duty, I believe it is necessary to include it
[08:51] Soro Dagostino: Yield to that concern
[08:52] Callipygian Christensen: Omitting sections of our procedures because we don't personally agree with them would not be appropriate
[08:52] Soro Dagostino: Calli, my point is, that is a decision of the body.
[08:53] Soro Dagostino: It may take action
[08:53] Callipygian Christensen: ok..I think we have a starting pint there for Dean *and* general procedures for discussion once they are collated
[08:53] Callipygian Christensen: may take action how Soro?
[08:53] Soro Dagostino: By discussion and vote.
[08:54] Callipygian Christensen: What sort of action do you mean?
[08:54] Soro Dagostino: Any action brought to the table by a member of the SC.
[08:55] Soro Dagostino: And voted upon by the body.
[08:55] Delia Lake: aside note, we seem still to be missing some laws from the published active and archived code of laws...
[08:55] Delia Lake: was reading
[08:55] Callipygian Christensen: ok..but I am not sure I follow how that relates to documenting the required actions and developing procedures to do so?
[08:56] Delia Lake: I'm not sure of the connection either
[08:57] Soro Dagostino: Are any of the "missing parts" procedural in nature?
[08:59] Delia Lake: I'm trying to search that out, Soro, and not go by memory
[08:59] Callipygian Christensen: I think the onnly record of most of these things are the actual laws
[08:59] Callipygian Christensen: Creating documentation of how we go about doing our work asnt happened in detailbefore
[08:59] Soro Dagostino: Then we should try to see
[09:00] Callipygian Christensen: This has left the SC open to accusations of not doing its work, on a personal level and as a body..so the point here is to have something new members can use as a guide, and to educate others in what we dl
[09:02] Callipygian Christensen: I think that the discussion of the drafts of these documents will be an opportunity to discuss the details of what should or should not be included
[09:02] Soro Dagostino: I comment its not only for new members.
[09:02] Callipygian Christensen: Soro, just realizing that it may not be clear - this is 'gather the info' for discussion of the whole SC body, not 'gather the info so the Dean can declare it so'
[09:04] Delia Lake: it seems to me that right now we should lay out procedures with reference to existing constitutional duties and responsibilities, and the existing code of laws, and then identifying areas that we believe the current status to be less than optimal then work on recommendations to
[09:04] Callipygian Christensen: and i agree, it is also a referencefor all of us, once it exists
[09:04] Delia Lake: replace those sections
[09:04] Callipygian Christensen nods to Delia - thank you for summarzing what i believe both Soro and my points are lol
[09:05] Soro Dagostino: At this point what do we have to show the others.
[09:06] Callipygian Christensen: ok..I'll put this info together as a post to the SC discussion threadonce the Forums are back up
[09:06] Soro Dagostino: the procedural rules at the next meeting and on the forum
[09:06] Callipygian Christensen: I'd like to move on to the transition topic, since it is important and should be added in to any reform legislation put to the RA
[09:06] Soro Dagostino: And the SC Discussion page.
[09:07] Callipygian Christensen: It all goes to the Discussion forum first Soro, - if members respond and discuss, we can bring something to the next meeting
[09:08] Callipygian Christensen: So..transition to term limits for SC members
[09:08] Soro Dagostino: is that law?
[09:08] Callipygian Christensen: Have either of you given thought to what we might suggest is optimal?
[09:09] Callipygian Christensen: Itis part of the consitutional reform that went to the RA last term
[09:09] Callipygian Christensen: Since it will go back, it would be an improvement to place a transition plan in it, instead of arguing it out after the fact
[09:10] Soro Dagostino: The RA acted on some -- but they failed to act on the other half.
[09:10] Callipygian Christensen: Yes - so that half will go back, with someamendment, and the process of transition would be a beneficial addition
[09:11] Soro Dagostino: I don't agree
[09:11] Soro Dagostino: It is a way to imasculate the SC
[09:11] Delia Lake: what is, Soro?
[09:11] Delia Lake: what part?
[09:11] Soro Dagostino: Term limits
[09:12] Soro Dagostino: So special interest can interfere with the SC.
[09:12] Callipygian Christensen: well if no transition pla is in place, in theory the SC could be 2 members, 30 days after a successful vote
[09:13] Soro Dagostino: As it nearly was when I first joined.
[09:13] Callipygian Christensen: Soro, a desire for term limits was agreed to by all those participating in the reform discussions
[09:13] Delia Lake: I disagree. I think there should be term limits. I think 3 yrs is ok. could be 4 yrs, and with staggered terms going forth beyond us
[09:13] Callipygian Christensen: So a transition plan for how term limits come into place is important
[09:14] Delia Lake: I am not a believer in anyone holding office perpetually. not in rl or in sl
[09:15] Soro Dagostino: I will yield to the will of the body -- but remind all that there are institutions where it occurs. The US Supreme Court.
[09:15] Soro Dagostino: It may also be true in the british system.
[09:16] Callipygian Christensen: The argument put forward to that might well be 'yes..and those are gret examples of why term limits would be good' *grin*
[09:16] Delia Lake: I know that perpetual office holding occurs in rl. I am not a supporter of that
[09:17] Callipygian Christensen: however, since I expect that term limits will be part of any legislation that goes forward, lets identify what we consider a reasonable way to implement them?
[09:18] Callipygian Christensen: the proposd amendment identfies an SC of 5 members, wiht term limits..I thnk what was proposed was 2 years, perhaps it ends up 3 during discussions
[09:18] Delia Lake: I would not be in favor of removing anyone currently sitting on the SC
[09:19] Callipygian Christensen: No Delia, but I believe you are ready to retire, brining us to the required 5
[09:19] Delia Lake: not to meet term limits
[09:19] Delia Lake: yes
[09:19] Delia Lake: I will retire not later than the end of this year
[09:19] Soro Dagostino: So sorry to see that happen.
[09:19] Delia Lake: so on Jan 1, 2013 I will not be on the SC
[09:20] Soro Dagostino: You have been a stalwart to the SC's work.
[09:20] Delia Lake: I have served 4 yrs. that is enough
[09:20] Soro Dagostino: Now that is a fair answer.
[09:20] Callipygian Christensen: Would it be reasonable at that point to sugggest that the 2 holding longest mebership serve one more year, the nest 2 serve 2 more years..some forula like that?
[09:21] Delia Lake: that might make sense, Calli
[09:22] Callipygian Christensen: My intent in suggesting that is orderly transition, and not leaving a group of really new to the SC members trying to find their way
[09:22] Delia Lake: I agree with that, Calli
[09:23] Callipygian Christensen: I also feel that if we say 'the term starts for all members when the law passes' we would be seen to be acting in bad faith - and just delaying 'a whole new SC with no experience on board' to a later date
[09:23] Delia Lake: consistently it has been my experience on the SC that it takes the first 6 mos for someone to really find their footing
[09:24] Callipygian Christensen: Your thoughts Soro?
[09:25] Soro Dagostino: I yield to the body
[09:25] Soro Dagostino: Oppose term limits.
[09:25] Callipygian Christensen: oh for goodness sake Soro
[09:25] Soro Dagostino: My opinion.
[09:25] Soro Dagostino: And it is permitted.
[09:27] Callipygian Christensen: so if term limits *are* part of any legislation passed, you will abstain from giving your preferences for how ti implement them?
[09:28] Soro Dagostino: I will voice my objections for as long as I can.
[09:28] Soro Dagostino: the Body may act as it choses.
[09:29] Callipygian Christensen: well if no transition plan is in place, and anyone who has served the term already is expected to step down, 'as long as I can' will be a very short time span for all three of us *shrug*
[09:29] Delia Lake: just curious, what is your rational for supporting lifetime terms, Soro?
[09:29] Soro Dagostino: This SL.
[09:29] Delia Lake: lol Calli
[09:29] Callipygian Christensen: as you wish Soro - the draft of a transition will be on the SC Discussion thread - I hope you will conttribute
[09:29] Soro Dagostino: No one has stayed that lond.
[09:29] Soro Dagostino: long*
[09:30] Soro Dagostino: We replaced to former members.
[09:30] Soro Dagostino: it really is self regulating, and a brace of new law is not necessary
[09:30] Soro Dagostino: Stanton?
[09:31] Soro Dagostino: How long did he serve?
[09:31] Delia Lake: Gwyn and I have served the longest
[09:31] Delia Lake: Danton? probably 3 yrs. I'd have to look
[09:32] Callipygian Christensen: That *has* been the past actuality for the most part Soro, I agree. The reform issue has raised the 'what if' though..and if term limits become law then we will implement them
[09:32] Delia Lake: I do like staggered terms ensuring that there will always be some experienced SC members
[09:32] Callipygian Christensen: Aliasi has been almost as long as you Delis? longer I think, with a break in there somewhere
[09:33] Delia Lake: Aliasi originally was Chancellor before it was an elected office
[09:34] Soro Dagostino: I go back to the principals of the Simplicity Party -- why make law when the course of history brings resolution.
[09:34] Delia Lake: Sudane is probably the longest serving officer in the CDS
[09:35] Soro Dagostino: With term limits and the loss of Sudane, this place would collapse.
[09:35] Callipygian Christensen: Soro, in this case because some citizens have expressed a desire for those laws to exist
[09:35] Soro Dagostino: Some.
[09:35] Soro Dagostino: I disagree with them for the philosphy just presented
[09:36] Delia Lake: why imo, Soro, is that if it is left to attrition we do at times get members whose interest lags long before they step down. that impairs performance and also leaves the SC vulnerable to having the majority members with no experience or knowledge
[09:36] Callipygian Christensen nods.. Our system of emocracy however, as I pointed out to Pat, is about majority desire, not his individual desires, or yours, or mine.
[09:37] Soro Dagostino: All the while we can hold our own opinions.
[09:38] Soro Dagostino: if you have the votes, make it happen
[09:38] Soro Dagostino: I do not have to agree with the majority for the reasons stated.
[09:39] Callipygian Christensen: Soro, if the RA votes for it, then yes *they* have the votes to make it happen
[09:39] Soro Dagostino: I will say, that Delia's concern about stale members, is an element of consideration.
[09:39] Delia Lake: it is based on both my rl and sl experience in government
[09:39] Callipygian Christensen: When the amendment comes up for discussion and vote, I hope you will express your conerns
[09:40] Soro Dagostino: They tried and failed before.
[09:41] Delia Lake: that was due to lack of attendance I think not lack of interest
[09:41] Delia Lake: and Anna's computer problems
[09:41] Callipygian Christensen: Yes, the deciding vote was never cast
[09:42] Soro Dagostino: I yield to Delia and whatever the SC believes should be presented -- but I disagree about the need to change.
[09:43] Callipygian Christensen: ok..we are past the 90 minute mark - I propose that i will post a draft transition plan to hte SC Discussion thread, to go with the duties and procedures threads, for discussion by the SC as a whole
[09:43] Delia Lake: sounds good to me
[09:43] Soro Dagostino: nods
[09:44] Callipygian Christensen: Can we table Forum admin discussion and start it in an SC Discussion thread also?
[09:44] Delia Lake: I so move
[09:44] Callipygian Christensen: (its like an orphan..keps geting bumped off the end of the agenda lol)
[09:45] Soro Dagostino: for purposes of admin, I second.
[09:45] Callipygian Christensen: all in favour?
[09:45] Callipygian Christensen: aye
[09:46] Callipygian Christensen: ok.nextmeeting - Delia is unavailable throughout August - how is your summer schedule Soro?
[09:46] Soro Dagostino: I am here.
[09:48] Callipygian Christensen: we could go with July 29, or go three or four weeks and hold in eary l to mid August..any preferences?
[09:48] Soro Dagostino: Ok with me.
[09:48] Jordan (alexandar.vargas) is Online
[09:48] Soro Dagostino: You folk chose, I am available.
[09:48] Soro Dagostino: We need Delia.
[09:49] Callipygian Christensen: then lets go with July 29 - that might encourage people to get involved in the discussion threads in a timely fashion
[09:49] Delia Lake: I have rl work commitments for weekends in Aug
[09:49] Delia Lake: I may be able to pop inworld for a short time on july 29 but probably not for the whole time
[09:49] Callipygian Christensen: would the 28th work better Deia?
[09:49] Delia Lake: i hate having to work on summer weekends but must
[09:50] Delia Lake: 28th might be better
[09:50] Callipygian Christensen: ok.then Saturday July 28th, 8 AM?
[09:50] Delia Lake: yes
[09:51] Soro Dagostino: ok
[09:51] Soro Dagostino: Move to adjourn
[09:51] Delia Lake: second
[09:51] Callipygian Christensen: wit the intention perhaps of no scheduled meeting in August, since vacations etc kick in - unless there is legislation flagged and a meeting needed to address it?
[09:52] Delia Lake: yes
[09:52] Callipygian Christensen: ok..we are adjourned..thank you both for your input - it gives us a good framework to start from