CDS heraldry

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Ashcroft Burnham
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CDS heraldry

Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

I have noticed a great deal of lovely heraldry in Neufreistadt since I joined, and it seems to me a good idea to have in the CDS, just like in many real-world nations, an official body to register coats of arms in the CDS, so that it can be said that a particular coat of arms is the official coat of arms of a person or institution.

Perhaps we could have an official Register of Heralds (perhaps overseen by the Guild, with a Registrar of Heralds appointed by the Guildmeister) to register which coat of arms may be used by which body or individual. The Chancellor, the Guildmeister and the RA could have the power to grant a coat of arms to a person or body, either, in the case of an individual, as a recognition of outstanding service to the CDS, or, in the case of a body, that it is an important institution that deserves some degree of symbolic official representation, which would then be designed by the Registrar (with input as to the design from the grantee), and registered against that person or body's name in the Registry of Heralds.

Either the position of Registrar of Heralds should be paid a standard salary, or, alternatively, be allowed to charge a fee (which the granting body will decide whether to pay itself, or let the grantee pay) for each coat of arms designed. There should also be provision for registering existing coats of arms, or those designed by outside bodies.

Then, any person or body in the CDS using an unregistered coat of arms, or a coat of arms registered to someone else, could be subject to a fine.

The above system, incidentally, is based on the real-life law of heraldry, which is undoubtedly the oldest form of intellectual property law in the world.

The trick is, however, finding somebody willing to be the Registrar of Heralds...

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Pelanor Eldrich
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I'd be willing to do that.

Post by Pelanor Eldrich »

Hi Ash,

I'd be willing to do that. I use some heraldry myself. I have no formal training in the area but would be willing to learn. I see this as a way for me to contribute to the guild and would be willing to do it wihtout salary.

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Re: CDS heraldry

Post by Aliasi Stonebender »

[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":132jizi9]
Then, any person or body in the CDS using an unregistered coat of arms, or a coat of arms registered to someone else, could be subject to a fine.
[/quote:132jizi9]

It's a lovely idea, although I object to this specific provision. No one should be forced to register a logo (which is what a coat of arms boils down to), only required to register if they expect us to provide any protection.

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Re: CDS heraldry

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[quote="Aliasi Stonebender":x0tbxm1w]It's a lovely idea, although I object to this specific provision. No one should be forced to register a logo (which is what a coat of arms boils down to), only required to register if they expect us to provide any protection.[/quote:x0tbxm1w]

That provision is one found in the real-life law of heraldry; indeed, in Scotland, one can still be prosecuted for using a false coat of arms. The purpose behind it is to lend official authority to coats of arms in general. After all, if any old person could create any coat of arms that he or she wanted, provided that it was not the same as one already in existence, then what honour would it be to have a coat of arms? What would the point be of the power to grant coats of arms to deserving citizens? The function of a coat of arms is very different to the function of a trademark.

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Post by Chicago Kipling »

I agree with Aliasi.

I respect the desires of each of us to bring great beauties from our cultures to this sim, but we were never founded by a king nor did we ever claim to be of any royal line. A fine might make sense in such contexts when a ruler bestowed the heraldry as an honor. But as a collective of citizens who have chosen to find compromise in a government, I find little justification for the pomp that would require a fine.

If someone is silly enough to try to use our heraldry they'll only look foolish in a community of our size. And since we don't use such things as any form of official confirmation or blessing, it has more decorative value than any binding legal powers that I would suggest such measures were built to safeguard.

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Re: CDS heraldry

Post by Aliasi Stonebender »

[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":2ghd07u1]
That provision is one found in the real-life law of heraldry; indeed, in Scotland, one can still be prosecuted for using a false coat of arms. The purpose behind it is to lend official authority to coats of arms in general. After all, if any old person could create any coat of arms that he or she wanted, provided that it was not the same as one already in existence, then what honour would it be to have a coat of arms? What would the point be of the power to grant coats of arms to deserving citizens? The function of a coat of arms is very different to the function of a trademark.[/quote:2ghd07u1]

*shrugs*

Then I'll make a logo and not call it a coat of arms!

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Re: CDS heraldry

Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Aliasi Stonebender":2ze38rvm]Then I'll make a logo and not call it a coat of arms![/quote:2ze38rvm]

A coat of arms is a matter of design, rather than the name that the designer attaches to it.

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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Chicago Kipling":z6y0c675]I respect the desires of each of us to bring great beauties from our cultures to this sim, but we were never founded by a king nor did we ever claim to be of any royal line. A fine might make sense in such contexts when a ruler bestowed the heraldry as an honor. But as a collective of citizens who have chosen to find compromise in a government, I find little justification for the pomp that would require a fine. [/quote:z6y0c675]

Merely because we are a democracy, it does not inevitably follow that the formalities of heraldry have no place in our soceity. There is no necessary connexion between such formalities and monarchy; there is no reason why a collective of democratically elected representatives could not equally bestow a coat of arms as an honour.

[quote:z6y0c675]If someone is silly enough to try to use our heraldry they'll only look foolish in a community of our size. And since we don't use such things as any form of official confirmation or blessing[/quote:z6y0c675]

The idea was that we should henceforth.

[quote:z6y0c675]It has more decorative value than any binding legal powers that I would suggest such measures were built to safeguard.[/quote:z6y0c675]

The purpose of a registrar of heralds is so that a coat of arms in the CDS could be worth more than a merely decorative symbol.

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Re: CDS heraldry

Post by Aliasi Stonebender »

[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":2k8mz4pc][quote="Aliasi Stonebender":2k8mz4pc]Then I'll make a logo and not call it a coat of arms![/quote:2k8mz4pc]

A coat of arms is a matter of design, rather than the name that the designer attaches to it.[/quote:2k8mz4pc]

So you say. On the other hand... please tell me exactly what you plan the city to do if I [i:2k8mz4pc]do[/i:2k8mz4pc] have an unregistered coat of arms.

A fine? Sure. Now tell me why I should deign to stay.

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Post by Chicago Kipling »

And there is one of the rubs Ashcroft. If we would force this matter with those who would truly abuse it for evil gains, they are unlikely to have any reason to stay and pay the fine.

And because textures are so easily copied they cannot be assumed to be nearly as credible as direct communication nor can they replace the author functions of objects.

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Post by Chicago Kipling »

I respect you and what you bring, Ashcroft. I guess you have just failed to propose any convincing reason why this deserves the level of intensity you seem to speak with.

Perhaps you have other supporting thoughts to present?

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Re: CDS heraldry

Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Aliasi Stonebender":2e7xpa0t]So you say. On the other hand... please tell me exactly what you plan the city to do if I [i:2e7xpa0t]do[/i:2e7xpa0t] have an unregistered coat of arms.

A fine? Sure. Now tell me why I should deign to stay.[/quote:2e7xpa0t]

For exactly the same reasons as you should stay if you are fined for a covenant violation. Exactly the same principle applies.

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Pelanor Eldrich
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Why not just keep it ceremonial and without legislation...

Post by Pelanor Eldrich »

For now, why don't we just treat CDS herald as a voluntary position appointed by the GM or Chancellor, with no particular teeth? I don't think we'll really even consider any serious legislation unless we run into a huge branding issue with two commerical entities using the same coat, in which case we can argue that it's IP theft.

So let's just let it ride for now. Voluntary pomp and fun. At some point I would like some system of awards (not necessarily heraldic) to be granted to citizens.

We have much bigger fish to fry in the immediate future. Who wants to talk about citizenship and confederation vs. republic?

Last edited by Pelanor Eldrich on Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Chicago Kipling":5vlark4m]And there is one of the rubs Ashcroft. If we would force this matter with those who would truly abuse it for evil gains, they are unlikely to have any reason to stay and pay the fine.[/quote:5vlark4m]

That is so for all enforcement, but the point is not that we imagine that there will be people out there putting heraldry to evil uses (whatever that is supposed to mean), but that good, honest, law-abiding citizens will realise that a grant of a coat of arms confers special rights that a person who has not been so granted does not have, and will, being honest, decent, law-abiding citizens, not use unregistered coats of arms. The fine is there in case anybody is tempted to think that the prohibition is worthless because it lacks any power of enforcement.

[quote:5vlark4m]And because textures are so easily copied they cannot be assumed to be nearly as credible as direct communication nor can they replace the author functions of objects.[/quote:5vlark4m]

I do not follow: the law of heraldry protects the blazon (the overall description of the coat of arms), not the specific implimentation design or texture. It is not like a copyright.

[quote:5vlark4m]I respect you and what you bring, Ashcroft. I guess you have just failed to propose any convincing reason why this deserves the level of intensity you seem to speak with.

Perhaps you have other supporting thoughts to present?[/quote:5vlark4m]

It is not true that I have not presented any reason to prohibit the use of unregistered coats of arms: the function of a grant of a coat of arms is to confer an honour or a distinction upon the grantee of that coat of arms. That function cannot be served if people are permitted to have coats of arms even if not officially granted. The whole idea of having official heraldry at all is predicated on prohibiting unregistered coats of arms.

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Re: CDS heraldry

Post by Fernando Book »

[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":h1ko93s0]
The Chancellor, the Guildmeister and the RA could have the power to grant a coat of arms to a person or body, either, in the case of an individual, as a recognition of outstanding service to the CDS, or, in the case of a body, that it is an important institution that deserves some degree of symbolic official representation, which would then be designed by the Registrar (with input as to the design from the grantee), and registered against that person or body's name in the Registry of Heralds. [/quote:h1ko93s0]

In modern societies, this kind of recognition is usually given through decorations, like Distinguished Service Medals (in most countries), or through civilian orders, like the French Légion d'honneur (and we can wait a few years before being sure that one of our fellow citizens deserves one).

Coats of arms are protected, as Ashcroft has pointed, in many countries (that are monarchies nowadays) but in our case, it would be a bit silly (and a blatant lack of originality) to copy anyone's in-world arms. And if his intention is to impersonate someone else, or earning a profit from anybody's prestige I suppose we can prosecute him.

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