CDS heraldry

[Ashcroft Burnham]

[quote="Fernando Book":1x6k9g5f]In modern societies, this kind of recognition is usually given through decorations, like Distinguished Service Medals (in most countries), or through civilian orders, like the French Légion d'honneur (and we can wait a few years before being sure that one of our fellow citizens deserves one).

Coats of arms are protected, as Ashcroft has pointed, in many countries (that are monarchies nowadays) but in our case, it would be a bit silly (and a blatant lack of originality) to copy anyone's in-world arms. And if his intention is to impersonate someone else, or earning a profit from anybody's prestige I suppose we can prosecute him.[/quote:1x6k9g5f]

It is not just about copying other people's coats of arms, though: it is about using coats of arms that, whilst not copied from anyone else, have also not been officially granted by those who have authority to do so.

[Brian Livingston]

I'm going to have to agree with the several previous posts that have questioned the need for a fine for using an unregistered herald. I suppose it would be one thing to impose a fine if someone else is caught using another registered coat of arms, but to simply fine someone for not registering a coat of arms is rather excessive.

Then again, what you refer to as a coat of arms might just be a cool looking shield to me, with no assumed meanign behind it. Simply a texture. I am pretty sure that the UNDHR does give me the right to free speech, and I am pretty sure that, given we are not a monarchy or feudal society, the coats of arms have no special meaning or rights in the context of NFS. As such, this bill seems like it would be in violation of our founding documents and thus if passed, should be subsequently vetoed by the SC.

Lastly, I am a bit confused by your statement that having a Coat of Arms gives citizens special rights in NFS. And just for posterity's sake:

[quote:3f653o5o]That is so for all enforcement, but the point is not that we imagine that there will be people out there putting heraldry to evil uses (whatever that is supposed to mean), but that good, honest, law-abiding citizens will realise that a grant of a coat of arms confers special rights that a person who has not been so granted does not have, and will, being honest, decent, law-abiding citizens, not use unregistered coats of arms. The fine is there in case anybody is tempted to think that the prohibition is worthless because it lacks any power of enforcement.[/quote:3f653o5o]

What special rights do these Coats of Arms grant me? The right to wear silly hats, use a few more prims, or save 10% on my purchases in NFS (some exclusions do apply, see sales associate for details)? I mean, I'll make a coat of arms and register it if it will allow me to hitch my pet Llama in the platz.

So as several other residents have asked, is this really such a pressing issue that we need a bill and commission, fees and fines? Will it really besmirch your reputation if heaven forbid I put up an unregistered coat of arms? Make it optional and it's all fine and dandy, but to make this mandatory is just overkill.

--BL

[Chicago Kipling]

[quote="Pelanor Eldrich":2d1o8pqo]We have much bigger fish to fry in the immediate future. Who wants to talk about citizenship and confederation vs. republic?[/quote:2d1o8pqo]

I agree.

[Aliasi Stonebender]

[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":6trcc0y5][quote="Aliasi Stonebender":6trcc0y5]So you say. On the other hand... please tell me exactly what you plan the city to do if I [i:6trcc0y5]do[/i:6trcc0y5] have an unregistered coat of arms.

A fine? Sure. Now tell me why I should deign to stay.[/quote:6trcc0y5]

For exactly the same reasons as you should stay if you are fined for a covenant violation. Exactly the same principle applies.[/quote:6trcc0y5]

Not quite.

The covenant has an obvious utility; it keeps the sim looking nice and helps to combat script and texture-induced lag.

[Ashcroft Burnham]

[quote="Brian Livingston":nqmlu6lk]I'm going to have to agree with the several previous posts that have questioned the need for a fine for using an unregistered herald. I suppose it would be one thing to impose a fine if someone else is caught using another registered coat of arms, but to simply fine someone for not registering a coat of arms is rather excessive.

Then again, what you refer to as a coat of arms might just be a cool looking shield to me, with no assumed meanign behind it. Simply a texture. I am pretty sure that the UNDHR does give me the right to free speech, and I am pretty sure that, given we are not a monarchy or feudal society, the coats of arms have no special meaning or rights in the context of NFS. As such, this bill seems like it would be in violation of our founding documents and thus if passed, should be subsequently vetoed by the SC. [/quote:nqmlu6lk]

Why would fining people for using an unregistered coat of arms infringe anybody's freedom of speech any more than fining people for using other people's coats of arms?

You also repeat, without addressing my response thereto, another poster's unreasoned assertion that, since we are a republic and not a monarchy, it cannot possibly be the case that coats of arms could ever have, or ever be given, a special meaning or status. There is no reason for any such assertion. A coat of arms can have just as much meaning in a republic as it can a monarchy: it can be granted by elected officials upon those who warrant it. The mere fact that, by tradition, coats of arms grew up in times when almost every state was a monarchy does not make that any less so.

[quote:nqmlu6lk]Lastly, I am a bit confused by your statement that having a Coat of Arms gives citizens special rights in NFS. And just for posterity's sake:

[quote:nqmlu6lk]That is so for all enforcement, but the point is not that we imagine that there will be people out there putting heraldry to evil uses (whatever that is supposed to mean), but that good, honest, law-abiding citizens will realise that a grant of a coat of arms confers special rights that a person who has not been so granted does not have, and will, being honest, decent, law-abiding citizens, not use unregistered coats of arms. The fine is there in case anybody is tempted to think that the prohibition is worthless because it lacks any power of enforcement.[/quote:nqmlu6lk]

What special rights do these Coats of Arms grant me? The right to wear silly hats, use a few more prims, or save 10% on my purchases in NFS (some exclusions do apply, see sales associate for details)? I mean, I'll make a coat of arms and register it if it will allow me to hitch my pet Llama in the platz. [/quote:nqmlu6lk]

Perhaps you misunderstood: having a registered coat of arms gives you the right to use that coat of arms, and nothing else. You confuse, I suspect, the idea of coats of arms giving you [i:nqmlu6lk]rights[/i:nqmlu6lk] and coats of arms giving you merely [i:nqmlu6lk]status[/i:nqmlu6lk].

[quote:nqmlu6lk]So as several other residents have asked, is this really such a pressing issue that we need a bill and commission, fees and fines?[/quote:nqmlu6lk]

An issue does not have to be pressing for it to be good for it to be addressed with due formality. All that we would need is one simple bill and one person interested in heraldry, and willing to devote some of her or his time to registering it.

[quote:nqmlu6lk]Will it really besmirch your reputation if heaven forbid I put up an unregistered coat of arms? Make it optional and it's all fine and dandy, but to make this mandatory is just overkill.[/quote:nqmlu6lk]

The point is not that displaying an unregistered coat of arms will damage any individual's reputation, but that allowing people to use unregistered coats of arms will make the idea of registering them largely pointless.

[Ashcroft Burnham]

[quote="Aliasi Stonebender":h9ij7u5g]Not quite.

The covenant has an obvious utility; it keeps the sim looking nice and helps to combat script and texture-induced lag.[/quote:h9ij7u5g]

I have explained the utility of requiring registration of coats of arms above; you have not found any flaw in my explanation, yet you continue to assume that there is one, or that I have not explained at all - why?

[Aliasi Stonebender]

[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":3reshoac][quote="Aliasi Stonebender":3reshoac]Not quite.

The covenant has an obvious utility; it keeps the sim looking nice and helps to combat script and texture-induced lag.[/quote:3reshoac]

I have explained the utility of requiring registration of coats of arms above; you have not found any flaw in my explanation, yet you continue to assume that there is one, or that I have not explained at all - why?[/quote:3reshoac]

I believe I did explain the flaw: it's a useless waste of time. As you said yourself, registries of coats of arms were a forerunner of modern IP law; today, we have [i:3reshoac]actual modern IP law[/i:3reshoac] to enforce such things, fancy that!

Moreover, I fail to see the POINT. We are a co-operative masquerading as a town in order to share space on a server in California; how does this help us in any way, shape, form, or fashion?

Covenant law helps us maintain the sim.

A legal system helps as most matters in SL are too small-scale to be easily dealt with in real-world systems; in a manner of speaking even the Judiciary Act is a form of alternative dispute resolution from this viewpoint.

Allowing businesses to "incorporate" under us allows a de-facto 'chamber of commerce' in SL.

A Coat of Arms registry... means we won't complain if someone uses a bit of heraldry on our sim. Woo. The only reasonable support for your argument you've advanced is "it would bring money in", and quite frankly, if we have to resort to this sort of silly shit to bring in cash, we've already failed.

[Pelanor Eldrich]

Folks, let's tone it down a notch. I don't really think we need a flame fest over heraldry at this point. What I recommend is that Ash, or whoever is interested, post a bill on the legislation subforum and we'll look at it.

Dons uncoated asbestos underwear.

[Ashcroft Burnham]

[quote="Aliasi Stonebender":2yjsloxs]I believe I did explain the flaw: it's a useless waste of time. As you said yourself, registries of coats of arms were a forerunner of modern IP law; today, we have [i:2yjsloxs]actual modern IP law[/i:2yjsloxs] to enforce such things, fancy that!

Moreover, I fail to see the POINT. We are a co-operative masquerading as a town in order to share space on a server in California; how does this help us in any way, shape, form, or fashion?[/quote:2yjsloxs]

I did explain exactly the point of coats of arms, which explanation you seem to have ignored for reasons that you have not stated. The point of not permitting unregistered coats of arms is so that the grant of a coat of arms counts as the bestowing of a valuable honour upon the grantee. The point of permitting institutions of our government to bestow valuable honours is to encourage conduct worthy of such honours, and to make it clear to all who has acted in such an honourable way. Also, it is possible that increasing the sophistication and complexity of aspects of our soceity will make people feel more strongly connected to it because there is more to which to be connected.

Other forms of intellectual property law cannot achieve the same thing. It is not true, incidentally, that the more modern forms of intellectual property law evolved from the law of heraldry: their origins were quite different, and they have always served wholly different functions.

[Pelanor Eldrich]

What if we dispensed with all fines and penalties and did the following?:

Anyone can use any kind of coat of arms.

The Chancellor (or RA?) grants official coats of arms.
Officially granted coats of arms are registered.

The Chancellor (or RA) grants official awards.
Official awards are registered.

Official awards and coats grant only status/prestige and nothing more.

You can just look on the CDS website to see what is officially registered. Or you could look at a notarized grant/award notecard to see an officially recognized coat/award.

It's a little harmless pomp to create some recognition and some tradition. Are we ok with that?

[Aliasi Stonebender]

[quote="Pelanor Eldrich":j0e6mk8u]
You can just look on the CDS website to see what is officially registered. Or you could look at a notarized grant/award notecard to see an officially recognized coat/award.

It's a little harmless pomp to create some recognition and some tradition. Are we ok with that?[/quote:j0e6mk8u]

I don't mind a little harmless pomp; it's adding unnecessary "crimes" I'm against, especially ones we have no real power to enforce. Just because we've now (almost) got a legal system doesn't mean we need to be in a hurry to burden it.

We can enforce covenant violations and make them stick since they deal directly with land. Incorporation allows for the holding of funds in escrow, thus giving us a lever. Enforcing coats-of-arms... is something we are ill-equipped to deal with on any practical level.

I apologize for my vehemence - my libertarian roots are showing - but even this minor thing would establish a precedent. I do not wish our government to become bloated with petty bureaucracy of this sort; if Ashcroft wishes to personally start a coat-of-arms registry, that's on him. I would prefer the CDS remain as much of a "night watchman" government as possible.

[Brian Livingston]

[quote:18k9mmks]Why would fining people for using an unregistered coat of arms infringe anybody's freedom of speech any more than fining people for using other people's coats of arms? [/quote:18k9mmks]

First off, let me emphasize that I do not think that under any circumstances we should be fining anyone over the use or misuse of coats of arms.

However, in response to your question, the answer is quite simple. Unless I am infringing upon the rights of another person or the covenent of my land, there is no reason that the government should be telling me what I can and cannot place in my home. If I am, however, infringing upon the rights of another entity, be it the state, another citizen, or a company, the government can take steps to remedy the situation, which would be a legitimate use of a fine. Simply fining me because I do not wish to seek protection from the CDS government for my seal is an egregious abuse of the power entrusted to the state by its citizens. Either way, the need for this bill is still escaping me, given that our IP rights to any creation, including uploaded images, are protected by Linden Labs via their policies, as well as California and US Federal Laws.

[Ashcroft Burnham]

[quote="Aliasi Stonebender":u6bq1wz1]I don't mind a little harmless pomp; it's adding unnecessary "crimes" I'm against, especially ones we have no real power to enforce. Just because we've now (almost) got a legal system doesn't mean we need to be in a hurry to burden it.[/quote:u6bq1wz1]

Aliasi, I have explained very carefully and in some detail why prohibiting false coats of arms (as is common in real-world jurisdictions) is not pointless. If you can find some flaw in the argument that I present in favour of it, that is one thing, but it really is not proper merely repeatedly to assert, without providing reasons, the contrary of what somebody has backed with careful reasoning.

[Aliasi Stonebender]

[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":1zf0g2pj]
Aliasi, I have explained very carefully and in some detail why prohibiting false coats of arms (as is common in real-world jurisdictions) is not pointless. If you can find some flaw in the argument that I present in favour of it, that is one thing, but it really is not proper merely repeatedly to assert, without providing reasons, the contrary of what somebody has backed with careful reasoning.[/quote:1zf0g2pj]

Ah, but you made the assertion, you must then back it up. It is not my job to disprove it, but yours to lend evidence for it.

You have yet to provide a compelling reason FOR coats of arms. In your original post, the only direct point is "there is a lot of lovely heraldry in the sim, we should have a register". Perhaps many real-world nations continue to register coats of arms; the one I happen to inhabit does not but seems to have had no harm done by the loss for roughly 230 years. As it is, the heraldry that is done in our sim is well-covered by modern IP law; should someone use another's heraldry unlawfully there are remedies in that law already existing. The most obvious being the Digital Millenium Copyright Act of the United States; even if an SL user lives outside the US, Linden Lab and the servers very much reside inside those borders and the cost of postage of a simple request to remove infringing material is generally not so very much, even overseas.

I will fully admit that I have several personal biases that incline me against this matter, but I think it is telling you have had no solid statement for this idea other than "it's an interesting idea".

[Tad Peckham]

[quote="Brian Livingston":3rh1m10n]

Then again, what you refer to as a coat of arms might just be a cool looking shield to me, with no assumed meanign behind it. Simply a texture. I am pretty sure that the UNDHR does give me the right to free speech, and I am pretty sure that, given we are not a monarchy or feudal society, the coats of arms have no special meaning or rights in the context of NFS. [/quote:3rh1m10n]

i also agree with this statement.

[quote:3rh1m10n] So as several other residents have asked, is this really such a pressing issue that we need a bill and commission, fees and fines? Will it really besmirch your reputation if heaven forbid I put up an unregistered coat of arms? Make it optional and it's all fine and dandy, but to make this mandatory is just overkill.

--BL[/quote:3rh1m10n]

and, this too, i agree with. i do not think that legislation is needed to regulate coat of arms. part of what what makes second life FUN is that we are able to create any type of character we want in-world. if i wanted to create a peckham family history and design a family coat of arms to respresent that history, i presently have the right to do so. if government wants to grant someone a special title or symbol: have at it. however, government should not have the power to regulate my imagination in terms of how i desire to present the peckham name to the rest of neufreistadt and sl community at large.