The Judiciary and Scientific Council (Finance) Bill

[Ashcroft Burnham]

[b:2kjpt2wz][u:2kjpt2wz]The Judiciary and Scientific Council (Finance) Bill[/b:2kjpt2wz][/u:2kjpt2wz]

[i:2kjpt2wz]A Bill to make financial provision for the employment of salaried Judges of Common Jurisdiction, the Chair of the Judiciary Commission, for procurement of certain capital items for the judiciary and the Scientific Council, and some miscellaneous consequential provisions[/i:2kjpt2wz].

1. There shall be appropriated to the Judiciary Commission from the Treasury the sum of L$2,000 per calendar month for the purpose of paying the Chief Judge of Common Jurisdiction and the Chair of the Judiciary Commission a salary of L$1,000 per calendar month each.

2. There shall be appropriated to the Judiciary Commission from the Treasury the sum of L$1,700 for the purposes of the purchase of judicial robes from the firm, "Reasonable Designs", as set out in the items 1 and 3 of the quote annexed to schedule 1 hereto.

3. There shall be appropriated to the Scientific Council from the Treasury the sum of L$1,000 for the purposes of the purchase of judicial and general ceremonial robes from the firm, "Reasonable Designs", as set out in the item 2 of the quote annexed to schedule 1 hereto.

4. A person may simultaneously hold the position of Chair of the Judiciary Commission and Scientific Council Archivist, provided that any person so holding shall be paid the salary of whichever of the two posts (if different) is higher, and not the combined total of the two.

[b:2kjpt2wz]Schedule 1[/b:2kjpt2wz]

[quote:2kjpt2wz]For the following Four robes... All permissions and no resale in store. (although we have no control over third party copying of design...unfortunately)

Robe 1) Black robe, ankle length with trimming mid green, hood up/down medieval stlye, flowing at the back, fastened at waist and lower neck, green to be advised. Sash as an option here. No Mantle. (exact desription in note card copy of our converse, copy available)

L$1,000

Robe 2) As above, Scarlet isnstead of black, light blue trim, floor length, sash option.

L$1,000

Robe 3) Black, knee length, open front, no sleeves, going 1/4 way around front from each side.

L$700

All colors to be advised, this can me done at any time before day 5 of the 7 day build. Delivery is 7 full days from acceptance.

No deposit is required, however rights to the garment only change hands upon payment.

We will for a period of two weeks make any reasonable adjustments to the garments to your satisfaction, this does not however include any major color changes.

During the build we may ask if its ok to show you and model the state of the design for a stage approval.

You or your designated party will recieve the item full mod, copy and transfer.

Reasonable designs will hold on to one copy for technical reasons only, the item will not be sold or otherwise used as it is except as part of our aftersales with you.

As stated the deliver is 7 days. Any alterations to the basic design may push that out but we will inform you if this is the case at the time of the alteration request.

we will be happy to come and help anyone wearing the item with fittings etc.

The price for all three items is L$2700.

M.Joliat (and A Pegler) Reasonable Designs[/quote:2kjpt2wz]

[Publius Crabgrass]

Perhaps payment should be in the form of an award of an official [url=http://forums.neufreistadt.info/viewtop ... 5:34l8nwkj]coat of arms[/url:34l8nwkj]or other heraldic device.

[Ashcroft Burnham]

[quote="Publius Crabgrass":23yem5cz]Perhaps payment should be in the form of an award of an official [url=http://forums.neufreistadt.info/viewtop ... 5:23yem5cz]coat of arms[/url:23yem5cz]or other heraldic device.[/quote:23yem5cz]

Ensuring that judges and those involved in the administration of the judiciary have a proper salary is an integral part of judicial independence. However, if you become Chair of the Judiciary Commission, and expressly request that your salary be waived in return for a grant of a coat of arms, I doubt that anybody would object. Indeed, we could use the extra money to get a second judge in due course.

[Diderot Mirabeau]

[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":1y82qg9y]2. There shall be appropriated to the Judiciary Commission from the Treasury the sum of L$1,700 for the purposes of the purchase of judicial robes from the firm, "Reasonable Designs", as set out in the items 1 and 3 of the quote annexed to schedule 1 hereto.

3. There shall be appropriated to the Scientific Council from the Treasury the sum of L$1,000 for the purposes of the purchase of judicial and general ceremonial robes from the firm, "Reasonable Designs", as set out in the item 2 of the quote annexed to schedule 1 hereto."[/quote:1y82qg9y]

It occurs to me to be an egregious misuse of funds to spend 2,700L$ on carneval costumes for the personal entertainment of judges, when Neufreistadt is in a situation of having to borrow money to finance the expansion to a second sim. It does not make the matter any better in my view that the intended supplier seems to be not a citizen of Neufreistadt either.

[Pelanor Eldrich]

I'm sure the Judges themselves or a well meaning citizen donor could come up with the $L for robes and wigs without writing it into the code.

[Ashcroft Burnham]

[quote="Diderot Mirabeau":2ygm4334]It occurs to me to be an egregious misuse of funds to spend 2,700L$ on carneval costumes for the personal entertainment of judges[/quote:2ygm4334]

This is a wholly improper and baseless assertion: as you should well know, since I have explained it to you repeatedly, the purpose of the robes is to maintain the dignity of court proceedings. There is no conceivable basis at all upon which it could possibly be asserted that the only reason that funds for robes are being sought is for the "personal entertainment of judges", such a suggestion being so improperly groundless as to be verging on the malicious.

[quote:2ygm4334]When Neufreistadt is in a situation of having to borrow money to finance the expansion to a second sim. It does not make the matter any better in my view that the intended supplier seems to be not a citizen of Neufreistadt either.[/quote:2ygm4334]

Name a skilled robe-maker in Neufreistadt.

[Diderot Mirabeau]

Ashcroft I have already at length as far back as the 9th of August explained to you why I think your obsession with robes and wigs is a quaint and peculiar British tradition without which it is perfectly possible to have a "dignified legal system". That you persist at this late stage to demand that the community pay for your strange obsession with wigs and capes without having even bothered before now to explain the dubious connection you purport between dignity and the wearing of ridiculous robes and wigs seems to me to be bordering on the malicious neglect of other people's point of view.

If it furthermore becomes the case that a future chief justice intends to make the wearing of this outlandish garb mandatory as part of the procedures set out for proper conduct in court it seems to me to be quite an ironic indication of how one has been pre-occupied with mindlessly copying the trappings of a real life judiciary bells and whistle rather than with discovering what will actually work and scale down to a virtual community of 40.

[Ashcroft Burnham]

[quote="Diderot Mirabeau":1au0ya3w]Ashcroft I have already at length as far back as the 9th of August explained to you why I think your obsession with robes and wigs is a quaint and peculiar British tradition without which it is perfectly possible to have a "dignified legal system".[/quote:1au0ya3w]

That is something to which I replied, and then replied again to your reply, to which you did not reply further. The arguments now are the same as they were in both of my replies.

[quote:1au0ya3w]That you persist at this late stage to demand that the community pay for your strange obsession with wigs and capes without having even bothered before now to explain the dubious connection you purport between dignity and the wearing of ridiculous robes and wigs seems to me to be bordering on the malicious neglect of other people's point of view.[/quote:1au0ya3w]

That is utterly incoherent, and a deliberate non-argument. Do you not even remember Pelanor's reply endorsing the use of robes? You have also, evidently quite deliberately, failed to address the substance of my previous post, which was that your claim that the robes were merely for the personal entertainment of the judges was utterly unfounded. Merely because you disagree with Pelanor and me, and all the other people who advocate robed, rather than unrobed judges, does not mean that the only reason that I advocate robed judges is for my personal entertainment; how can it? Finally, your claim that me seeking to secure funding for what I have stated many times now is a genuine benefit of having robed judges is "bordering on the malicious neglect of other people's point of view", rather than a genuine disagreement with those who dislike robes, or even that "malicious negelct of other people's point of view" is a meaningful concept, is undisguisedly dishonest: there can be no doubt that you were purposely seeking to use the word "malicious" against me merely because I had justifiedly used it against you whether there was any concievably plausible basis for such a claim or not.

[quote:1au0ya3w]If it furthermore becomes the case that a future chief justice intends to make the wearing of this outlandish garb mandatory as part of the procedures set out for proper conduct in court it seems to me to be quite an ironic indication of how one has been pre-occupied with mindlessly copying the trappings of a real life judiciary bells and whistle rather than with discovering what will actually work and scale down to a virtual community of 40.[/quote:1au0ya3w]

Again, another deliberate non-argument. There is no basis for your assumption that the mere fact that one has had detailed thoughts about court dress entails that proper consideration has not been given to other aspects of the system, nor that the fact that I argue for robed judges entails that I do so merely because I am "mindlessly copying the trappings of real life judiciary bells and whistle". The fact that you do not even attempt to present an express arugment in favour of those utterly baseless proposition shows your attitude to the matter.

[Pelanor Eldrich]

I love you guys both really, but please understand we're starting flamewars about robes and heraldry. Let me help solve this particular problem.

Please let me know if either of you object to the following.

Judicial garb is at the discretion of the judge in question and is not to be financed by the gov't of the CDS.

Perhaps I can throw in: Judicial garb may be ruled undignified by the Dean in which case the judge in question must wear garb considered dignified when performing judicial duties. That way, when I become a judge, I'll have to keep my giant rotating phallus attachment away from my forehead when in court. I'll keep it under my robes (or inventory or whatever) where it belongs.

I'll gift $L2,700 to Ashcroft to get his duds. Maybe we can negotiate a bulk purchase. Rinse, lather, repeat for subsequent judges. BTW the same goes for Chancellor doo-dads and other trinkets. When the CDS is rich I hope this will be less of an issue. Ok?

Now please focus on something that matters. You're both highly paid RL professionals arguing about $10USD. You've spent more than that in time just debating it. Thanks!

[Ashcroft Burnham]

[quote="Pelanor Eldrich":w89tkvt5]Judicial garb is at the discretion of the judge in question and is not to be financed by the gov't of the CDS.

Perhaps I can throw in: Judicial garb may be ruled undignified by the Dean in which case the judge in question must wear garb considered dignified when performing judicial duties. That way, when I become a judge, I'll have to keep my giant rotating phallus attachment away from my forehead when in court. I'll keep it under my robes (or inventory or whatever) where it belongs.[/quote:w89tkvt5]

The issue here is procurement of robes, not whether they ought be worn at all.

[quote:w89tkvt5]I'll gift $L2,700 to Ashcroft to get his duds. Maybe we can negotiate a bulk purchase. Rinse, lather, repeat for subsequent judges. BTW the same goes for Chancellor doo-dads and other trinkets. When the CDS is rich I hope this will be less of an issue. Ok?[/quote:w89tkvt5]

I can pay for the robes: L$2,700 is not a great deal of money, in the grand scheme of things. The point was more that it would reduce our credibility in the wider community if word got out that the judges of this new professional judiciary did not even have their robes paid for by the state. It was not, therefore, about the value of the robes themselves (which is about the same as I pay for my lunch' each day), but the professionalism that must infuse our state if we are to be taken seriously. I note in particular (and with approval) Aliasi's recent proposal for government positions, too, to be paid.

(Incidentally, the L$2,700 is for full-permissions robes, so there is no issue of having to buy in bulk).