On civil soceity

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Tad Peckham
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Post by Tad Peckham »

[quote:351airzk]If people make an argument that is absurd, why should it not be pointed out? There is, however, a very great difference between stating that a person's argument is absurd and being actually hostile and malicious towards a person.[/quote:351airzk]

i mean no disrespect, but maybe, just maybe i'm trying to suggest to you that if you think an argument is absurd, or if you do not think a person capable of making an argument, that there are more tactful ways of pointing that out to people. and, with a large number of your over 300 posts containing such demeaning language, maybe it does start to come off as hostile and malicious after a fashion regardless of intent. in my opinion, the way you presently point out to people the aspects of their arguments you think to be flawed or lacking, add just as much to the debate as the lack of reasoning and 'bland assertions' you claim others to be making. having said that, i will keep my future posts in this thread (if any) to the topic at hand.

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Ashcroft Burnham
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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Tad Peckham":3hqei86k]i mean no disrespect, but maybe, just maybe i'm trying to suggest to you that if you think an argument is absurd, or if you do not think a person capable of making an argument, that there are more tactful ways of pointing that out to people.[/quote:3hqei86k]

If an argument is inherently absurd, then it would be simply inaccurate to attempt to criticise it on grounds of anything other than absurdity. It is not a matter of tact: if somebody is claiming to know better than I do by claiming that he or she is right, and I am not, then it is not for me to treat that person as a student to be educated gently, but as an equal, as he or she claims to be, whose arguments deserve scrutiny on their merits, and their merits alone.

[quote:3hqei86k]and, with a large number of your over 300 posts containing such demeaning language, maybe it does start to come off as hostile and malicious after a fashion regardless of intent.[/quote:3hqei86k]

I do not agree that it is demeaning to call an argument abusrd when it really is absurd. There is an important difference between criticising a person's argument and criticising a person's character. There is no reason, if a person is claiming to know better than I do, that I should not expose the arguments in support of such a claim to the full extent of criticism that they deserve, if they are flawed. I do not expect anybody to do any differently with me. Those who fail to recognise the difference are exactly the sort of people who engage in malicious and hostile attacks on people when debating, and fail to recognise the fallacy of [i:3hqei86k]argumentum ad homimem[/i:3hqei86k].

[quote:3hqei86k]in my opinion, the way you presently point out to people the aspects of their arguments you think to be flawed or lacking, add just as much to the debate as the lack of reasoning and 'bland assertions' you claim others to be making.[/quote:3hqei86k]

That itself is an absurd argument, because true argument is all about the adequacy of reasons: the first analytically addresses the adequacy of reasons, and the second involves no reasoning at all. How can it conceivably not be constructive in a debate about which of two or more competing claims is right to analyse the flaws of the arguments, if any, presented in support of one or more of the claims? Is one supposed to ignore the flaws in another's argument, and try to win by mere repetition, or purport to accept that the other party is right, knowing that her or his arguments are manifestly flawed? How on earth do you imagine that a debate should progress such as to elucidate, rather than obfuscate, truth, and achieve more, rather than less, understanding? Only engagement, full engagement, with the merits of the subject is capable of achieving what any sincere participants in a debate necessarily seek to achieve.

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Chicago Kipling
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Post by Chicago Kipling »

Friends, this thread needs to end or at least some streams of it need to be spoken of elsewhere. The original concept, as Tad references, has been lost a ways back to arguments we've already had in other threads.

I've seen good progress made in thoughts about our core vision and future. I'd love to join in on a conversation about that in a new, less-charged thread.

A good photograph is like a good hound dog, dumb, but eloquent. ~ Eugene Atget
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Pelanor Eldrich
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Yes please lock this thread and start anew.

Post by Pelanor Eldrich »

I second Chicago. I think we really need to avoid the alienation and general bad feelings caused by this. Funny that it should happen on the Civil Society thread. :)

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Prokofy
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Post by Prokofy »

[quote:shhnampd]In building our civil soceity, we must be mindful of building it in a way that lasts, and is not prone to disintegrate. In particular, we must construct our governmental and social institutions in a way that promote unity over disunity, stability over instability, and that enable, when needs must, our government to have truly effective means of enforcing our laws against rogue citizens, or those who are involved in otherwise intractable disputes. Without stability, we are prone to disintegration, either by a failure of our central mechanisms, or by fractionation. Either would hamper our goal to create a true civil soceity in which the principles of community spirit, democratic participation in decisionmaking and the rule of law stand together to promote the interests of all. Disunity would break apart our community spirit, instability would undermine our democratic values, and lack of enforcability would render our law impotant and unable effectively to rule. Because of their importance to our ultimate goals, I will post separately on stability and on enforcability in due course. However, there can be little doubt that a united, stable, secure CDS, in which the rule of law prevails, with adequate enforcement mechanisms, is far more condusive to the goals of a civil soceity than a fractionated CDS, or an unstable CDS, or one in which there is no effective way of enforcing our laws. To work effectively, we need to be strong, resolute, and able to inspire confidence in outsiders. Only a combination of unity, stability and the effective rule of law stands any real chance of achieving that.[/quote:shhnampd]

Oh, dear. I've never seen such a collection of rigid, authoritarian concepts waved over the term "civil society" like a tomato and onion might be waved over stone soup.

Civil society, of course, has many definitions. All kinds of people from Gramsci to Havel to E.P. Thompson have written about it. Even the U.S. Government has now co-opted the term to mean basically "anything we fund out of our development agencies" and the UN NGOs wave it around to mean "our interest groups that were fortunate to get NGO accreditation at the UN".

People often forget that the term civil society means, well, civil society. That in some wider notions of it, it includes government, business, trade unions, and religious organizations.

In some contexts, in the autocratic executive-run situation we're in, in SL, civil society is "everything outside the state trying to carve out a state for itself." Ashcroft is always talking as if the harsh reality of Linden Lab and its owning of the servers doesn't exist; as if we can carve out some little stan in the sea of the Soviet Union where no one will notice us.

Everything he writes about this civil society lets me know that for him, it means "the binding ideology that creates the community I'm comfortable with."

So for Ashcroft, one always has to "build" civil society just like you had to "build" communism -- that is, according to a blueprint or plan that one man or a committee or an authoritative government builds.

But actual civil society is in fact a multiplicity of unplanned interests groups, civic movements, institutions, businesses, nonprofits, churches, temples, whatever. It's not something you can "build" for someone else -- it tends to build up itself from all directions when it has the right conditions of freedom.

Ashcroft is also very nervous that it "disintegrate" or "be built wrong" or "be unstable" -- though all these features are by their very nature characteristic of open societies. They always are disintegrating and reintegrating and being stable and tending toward entropy and then recreation. They are free systems. It's ok. Take a deep, cleansing breath now.

Now here's the kicker -- what civil society a la Ashcroft is all about -- control, control, control, My Way or the Highway:

"n particular, we must construct our governmental and social institutions in a way that promote unity over disunity, stability over instability, and that enable, when needs must, our government to have truly effective means of enforcing our laws against rogue citizens, or those who are involved in otherwise intractable disputes. "

Well...as always, we must ask: "what do you mean, "we," white man?"

But more to the point one must ask: whose unity? whose stability? Stability of what? The graveyard? The autocratic Ashcroftian rule?

Whenever I see someone yammering on with the word "effective," I generally have to reach for my gun (well, my pen and my letter pad for a letter to the editor). Effective...by whose lights? Just what ARE we up to here?

Who are these "rogue citizens," after all? People who transgressed Ashcroft's hilariously elaborate legal-beagle stuff about moderating the forums (which should be free)? And what are intractable disputes -- disputes that don't go Ashcroft's way?

"Need to be strong and resolute". Well, that's not what civil society will get you, in a transitional state in particular -- and a state where you are basically merely a kind of enclave to the larger political entity called Linden Lab, where your options range from a Chechnya to an Auland Islands in terms of political dependence or rebellion, with loss of your account and wealth always a distinct possibility.

What's to be strong and resolute *about*? Again, our Lindens, in their terribly brutal wisdom, have made a system that Ordinal Malaprop wisely called merely a weapon -- a gun. That's the land ban and the mute. These are guns. They don't parse, or wait for court orders or listen to reason. They are triggers to be pushed on the basis of emotion, hearsay, and practical self-defense -- in other words, weapons. So we're in a world already governed brutally by force.

What kind of civil society is there when the weapon is the chief form of dispute resolution?

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Ashcroft Burnham
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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

Laws that can actually be enforced, stability, carefully thought-out government structures - yes, of course, those are [i:3jja4hb1]all[/i:3jja4hb1] hallmarks of an authoritarian dictatorship. Liberal democracies aren't like that at all: people obey laws, if at all, purely by grace; only last week, there were five revolutions in France alone; and the U. S. constitution was, of course, scribbled on the back of a tea-towel by an ad-hoc band of itinerant mistrals.

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Prokofy
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Post by Prokofy »

>Laws that can actually be enforced, stability, carefully thought-out government structures

Oh, democracies are good at all those things.

They get good at them by remaining open, participatory, transparent, and accountable.

They don't have one man write the Judicial Law and ram it through. They do the thinking out over time lasting more than a few weeks, in groups larger than 2 or even 60.

They don't have one person's obsessive and hysterical notions of law and civil society as an enforcement machine shaping the entire venture.

They have separation of powers, checks and balances.

I don't see that in FriesWithThat. I see some busy people who tended toward the leftist utopian in their own politics who got bored playing government turning the reins over to the obsessive, the young, the untrained, the factionalists, the sectarians. Not good.

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Ashcroft Burnham
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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Prokofy":kbtn1ye0]>Laws that can actually be enforced, stability, carefully thought-out government structures

Oh, democracies are good at all those things.[/quote:kbtn1ye0]

So, above, when you wrote that those were all signs of oppression, you now admit you were wrong, do you?

[quote:kbtn1ye0]They get good at them by remaining open, participatory, transparent, and accountable.

They don't have one man write the Judicial Law and ram it through. They do the thinking out over time lasting more than a few weeks, in groups larger than 2 or even 60.

They don't have one person's obsessive and hysterical notions of law and civil society as an enforcement machine shaping the entire venture.

They have separation of powers, checks and balances.[/quote:kbtn1ye0]

I might be inclined to take you seriously if you presented a genuine argument in favour of your absurd claim that we have no checks and balances or separation of the powers, rather than merely asserting it, and expecting people to accept that it is true merely because you claim it. Do you claim to be infallible?

Ashcroft Burnham

Where reason fails, all hope is lost.
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