4-40: Land Reclamation Act

Proposals for legislation and discussions of these

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Ashcroft Burnham
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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Ranma Tardis":b0df51j6][This whole subject is very dangerous. If the chancellor can take peoples property for the advantage of the city or perhaps a more influential citizen it would make the "ownership" of land in Neufreistadt a complete joke, a sick and stupid joke.[/quote:b0df51j6]

You do realise, don't you, that nearly every real-world government (including the US government) has this power (subject to the duty to pay compensaiton)? How do you think that they could build roads and railways if one little farmer in the middle of the route didn't want to sell?

[quote:b0df51j6]I have noticed a tendency lately to make our government much more complex than required. We are in any terms only a village and a rather small one at that.[/quote:b0df51j6]

Power of eminent domain actually makes things simpler, as far as the government is concerned, in any case.

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Post by Ranma Tardis »

[quote="Claude Desmoulins":hvhhtgop]I would agree with Ranma, at least partly. Amendment 11 says the Chancellor has the power

[quote:hvhhtgop]to determine the use to which any and all land in Neufriestadt
shall be put[/quote:hvhhtgop]

I don't think this intrinsically allows him or her to unilaterally change the ownership of any parcel. This power is also subject to the laws -- including the existing CC&R and whatever changes to it the RA might make.

I'm working from memory here, but I think one of the reasons the bill died last session was a concern about the necessity of such a thing in the first place. The Gwynethstr. relocation was a good example of why we may not need this. In that instance, the affected parties were consulted, and the matter only went to RA after everyone whose house was going to move was on board.[/quote:hvhhtgop]

My question is what if the citizen does not agree? What if the citizen does not want to give up their choice business plot on the plaza or give up a nice view or whatever? Do you force them to take a "substandard" plot or a buyout with the resulting loss of a citizen? What do you do? Unlike real life being a citizen of Neufreistadt is a choice and can easily be changed. The powers of Government need to be used with the utmost care and consideration.

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Post by Aliasi Stonebender »

[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":27otv4z8][quote="Ranma Tardis":27otv4z8][This whole subject is very dangerous. If the chancellor can take peoples property for the advantage of the city or perhaps a more influential citizen it would make the "ownership" of land in Neufreistadt a complete joke, a sick and stupid joke.[/quote:27otv4z8]

You do realise, don't you, that nearly every real-world government (including the US government) has this power (subject to the duty to pay compensaiton)? How do you think that they could build roads and railways if one little farmer in the middle of the route didn't want to sell?
[/quote:27otv4z8]

On the other hand, Ashcroft, we do not [i:27otv4z8]need[/i:27otv4z8] roads and railways here, and land is homogenous. The differences between plot A and plot B, other than size, are wholly artificial - through terraforming, zoning, and so on. (There's also sim vs. sim performance, of course, but that's not something I see as a factor in an eminent domain scenario.)

That said, I support such a power existing - because I can visualize times when it might be practical, an expansion of a marketplace or such - but I also support strict controls on it. I know [i:27otv4z8]I[/i:27otv4z8] have no intentions of abusing it, but what about those after me?

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Post by Brian Livingston »

Okee, my mouse is on the fritz, so my responses are going to be rather limited on this matter until I can manage to get a new one.

First off, I agree with Claude's interpertation of the power of the Chancellor, in that the clause in question does not grant the power of eminent domain to the Chancellor.

It is true that the needs of the community in Second Life are often different than the needs of communities in Real Life. As has been said several times now, we do not need power lines and water mains, railroad right-of-ways and interstates. However, there are likely going to be instances in the future where the best interests of the community may require the taking of private property. Of course, the first step in any project of such a nature should be to sit down with all the parties and try to iron out an agreement. This procedure was designed to be relatively clear-cut in terms of responsibilities and checks and balances, but still intensive enough to both protect the rights of the citizen while encouraging the parties to negotiate first.

A major part of the design of this act is the focus on the three branches of the CDS government. This is so that there is not one person who is making the ruling on whether a parcel should be taken by the government. Rather, the process is initiated by the Guilde, as they are the ones who would be developing a large-scale public works project, discussed and voted upon by the R.A., and appeals are heard by the S.C. As such, there are no fewer than 5 people (at least by my count) who review these proposals at some point, not including the appeals process.

Eminent domain, when used correctly, is a powerful tool to help facilitate public works projects and encourage fruitful deliberations amongst all parties. It helps to ensure that while any government taking would likely be more expensive than a negotiated settlement, there is still a process in place to secure land needed for works projects in the event of a stalemate or attempted price gouging. When used incorrectly, eminent domain can result in some of the horrible urban renewal projects that occured across the United States during the middle of the 20th century. However, as I stated previously, thsi bill has the neccessary safeguards to ensure taht no one person or entity has the ability to take private land without due process.

--BL

Ranma Tardis

Post by Ranma Tardis »

[quote="Brian Livingston":2r3kpxnr]Okee, my mouse is on the fritz, so my responses are going to be rather limited on this matter until I can manage to get a new one.

First off, I agree with Claude's interpertation of the power of the Chancellor, in that the clause in question does not grant the power of eminent domain to the Chancellor.

It is true that the needs of the community in Second Life are often different than the needs of communities in Real Life. As has been said several times now, we do not need power lines and water mains, railroad right-of-ways and interstates. However, there are likely going to be instances in the future where the best interests of the community may require the taking of private property. Of course, the first step in any project of such a nature should be to sit down with all the parties and try to iron out an agreement. This procedure was designed to be relatively clear-cut in terms of responsibilities and checks and balances, but still intensive enough to both protect the rights of the citizen while encouraging the parties to negotiate first.

A major part of the design of this act is the focus on the three branches of the CDS government. This is so that there is not one person who is making the ruling on whether a parcel should be taken by the government. Rather, the process is initiated by the Guilde, as they are the ones who would be developing a large-scale public works project, discussed and voted upon by the R.A., and appeals are heard by the S.C. As such, there are no fewer than 5 people (at least by my count) who review these proposals at some point, not including the appeals process.

Eminent domain, when used correctly, is a powerful tool to help facilitate public works projects and encourage fruitful deliberations amongst all parties. It helps to ensure that while any government taking would likely be more expensive than a negotiated settlement, there is still a process in place to secure land needed for works projects in the event of a stalemate or attempted price gouging. When used incorrectly, eminent domain can result in some of the horrible urban renewal projects that occured across the United States during the middle of the 20th century. However, as I stated previously, thsi bill has the neccessary safeguards to ensure taht no one person or entity has the ability to take private land without due process.

--BL[/quote:2r3kpxnr]

I really do not see the need of a bill of this sort. Using eminent domain to aquire property for the town will result in problems. So you want to expand the marketplace? Where will the property owner be moved to and what if the citizen says NO to the deal? What if you are taking a highly profitable plot from someone who is a political foe to give to a supporter? I am not suggesting the current administration would do such a deed but what about the next one?

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Post by Claude Desmoulins »

I think what Ranma is proposing is that we essentially require universal consent before moving land around. I imagine her answer to her own question...

[quote = "Ranma Tardis"]...what if the citizen says NO to the deal?[/quote]

is "Don't do the deal."

Perhaps the fundamental question is, "Does our being virtual with people able to pack up and leave at a moment's notice [b:jl5fvaqb]require[/b:jl5fvaqb] us to use a model that places emphasis on consensus building rather than majority rule?" I say that having just presided over what I believe to be the first 3-2 votes in RA history. How's that for irony?

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This may not be obvious to our European citizens...

Post by Pelanor Eldrich »

Eminent doman is an incredibly hot potato in American politics at the moment. Very large segments of the US populace hate the idea of gov't purchasing land for commercial redevelopment. In Canada, it's expropriation, and I have no problem with it.

Just keep in mind this stuff will rub libertarian and small gov't types of all stripes the wrong way. If passed I hope we use it sparingly if at all.

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Post by Ranma Tardis »

[quote="Claude Desmoulins":2ijf1pxj]I think what Ranma is proposing is that we essentially require universal consent before moving land around. I imagine her answer to her own question... ? [/quote:2ijf1pxj]

[quote = "Ranma Tardis"] ...what if the citizen says NO to the deal? [/quote]

[quote="Claude Desmoulins":2ijf1pxj] is "Don't do the deal."

Perhaps the fundamental question is, "Does our being virtual with people able to pack up and leave at a moment's notice [b:2ijf1pxj]require[/b:2ijf1pxj] us to use a model that places emphasis on consensus building rather than majority rule?" I say that having just presided over what I believe to be the first 3-2 votes in RA history. How's that for irony?[/quote:2ijf1pxj]

Eminent Doman destroys the value of land and any sense of security. It turns citizens from being land owners into land renters. It could also mean that a citizen is a citizen only as long as she/he has the support of the government.
In Japan a persons land is a persons land. A few farmers have been holding up the expansion of the Tokyo Narita Airport for years. The airport commission has decided to extend the runway in the other direction. In the farmers defense this land has been in their families for countless hundreds of years. Since long before contact with the west the farmers of this family have been tending their fields.
Who is right? Perhaps in a few years certainly within 500 years the need for the airport will be gone but the descendants of these farmers will still be tending their fields. In the west value is place upon material things like making money over personal rights. The right of the farmers to tend their land would be put aside by a small payment. So what the farmers and their descendants will not be able to farm? Train them to fix computers or something is the standard stock "western" answer. The mighty dollar/Euro is more important than the rights their citizens, who in the west are just another commodity to use like any other resource. Really owning land empowers people and yes Japan has its share of Expressways, roads, airports, etc without the need to forcibly removing people from their land.

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Post by Aliasi Stonebender »

[quote="Ranma Tardis":117ndeij]In the west value is place upon material things like making money over personal rights. The right of the farmers to tend their land would be put aside by a small payment. So what the farmers and their descendants will not be able to farm? Train them to fix computers or something is the standard stock "western" answer. The mighty dollar/Euro is more important than the rights their citizens, who in the west are just another commodity to use like any other resource. Really owning land empowers people and yes Japan has its share of Expressways, roads, airports, etc without the need to forcibly removing people from their land.[/quote:117ndeij]

Not speaking in any official sort of capacity here, Ranma, but perhaps you could avoid tarring a group as large as "The West" with a single brush. As discussion here shows, there's some pretty vast differences.

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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Ranma Tardis":37pcle48]Eminent Doman destroys the value of land and any sense of security. It turns citizens from being land owners into land renters. It could also mean that a citizen is a citizen only as long as she/he has the support of the government.[/quote:37pcle48]

That last part would not be true of our jurisdiction, since the power envisaged would only permit land to be [i:37pcle48]substituted[/i:37pcle48], not removed entirely.

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Post by Ranma Tardis »

[quote="Aliasi Stonebender":3uppflow][quote="Ranma Tardis":3uppflow]In the west value is place upon material things like making money over personal rights. The right of the farmers to tend their land would be put aside by a small payment. So what the farmers and their descendants will not be able to farm? Train them to fix computers or something is the standard stock "western" answer. The mighty dollar/Euro is more important than the rights their citizens, who in the west are just another commodity to use like any other resource. Really owning land empowers people and yes Japan has its share of Expressways, roads, airports, etc without the need to forcibly removing people from their land.[/quote:3uppflow]

Not speaking in any official sort of capacity here, Ranma, but perhaps you could avoid tarring a group as large as "The West" with a single brush. As discussion here shows, there's some pretty vast differences.[/quote:3uppflow]

It is not "tar", I am showing how basic thoughts about goverment and how goverments interact with their citizens are very different. Is Japan any better than the western countries that do not have land rights as part of their consitution? Perhaps not, I like to say that Japan is not any better than any other country just different.

Ranma Tardis

Post by Ranma Tardis »

[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":2dsw88an][quote="Ranma Tardis":2dsw88an]Eminent Doman destroys the value of land and any sense of security. It turns citizens from being land owners into land renters. It could also mean that a citizen is a citizen only as long as she/he has the support of the government.[/quote:2dsw88an]

That last part would not be true of our jurisdiction, since the power envisaged would only permit land to be [i:2dsw88an]substituted[/i:2dsw88an], not removed entirely.[/quote:2dsw88an]

Perhaps but what if there is no land available? I think that "democracy" needs to have checks and balances to keep people from voting themselves other peoples property. I often view it as 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what to eat for dinner. The basic premince of Democracy is ok but the needs of the minority need to be protected from the majority.

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Post by Aliasi Stonebender »

[quote="Ranma Tardis":3mb54xl9]
It is not "tar", I am showing how basic thoughts about goverment and how goverments interact with their citizens are very different. Is Japan any better than the western countries that do not have land rights as part of their consitution? Perhaps not, I like to say that Japan is not any better than any other country just different.[/quote:3mb54xl9]

Ah, but you were saying such was true of "The West", whereas not all countries go for that, and other non-Western countries are worse than even the United States is in it's most Wal-Mart accomodating moments; China comes to mind.

I don't mean to make you feel put-upon, so I apologize if I'm coming on too strong. I'm a fan of precision in speech... being a little too imprecise at times myself.

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Why not use the Japanese marketplace approach.

Post by Pelanor Eldrich »

Here's a thought. I'm not sure if I saw this in the movie Tampopo but a noodle house owner had a stall kind of in the courtyard of a giant skyscraper in Japan. The owners of the surrounding property could not buy her out and so built the skyscraper around her.

I think this approach would work. In practice there are very few people such as the farmers Ranma describes that won't take a huge buyout bid. Especially in SL, it's so easy to move buildings, create new land etc. Most would take the money and run and certainly the wacky holdouts would lend "character" to the locale.

What's the harm in that approach?

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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Ranma Tardis":1yjcdkly]Perhaps but what if there is no land available?[/quote:1yjcdkly]

Then no substitution would be possible. This would not give anybody the power to make somebody not a citizen.

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