74 % said that they Want a new sim NOW

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cleopatraxigalia
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74 % said that they Want a new sim NOW

Post by cleopatraxigalia »

The referendum item in the last election read like this :

Do you wish that the Confederation of the Democratic Simulators purchases at least one new region during the 21st RA term?

74 % of the people who voted Said YES!

This issue crosses all lines of any sort of divide that may exist in CDS.

Only 8 citizens vote NO to the above question, when it was put to the vote in the last election.

Only EIGHT out of 65 who voted said no !

Yet we are into the 2nd month of the term and it has not even been discussed yet in RA that the CDS wants a new sim!

Please put that first on the agenda for the next meeting, and each additional meeting until the sim is ready!

Cleo
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Re: 74 % said that they Want a new sim NOW

Post by Spider Upshaw »

Are you saying 74% of all Citizens of CDS? or are you giving a percent of only those that voted? How many citizens in CDS? I think your math is wrong to say 74%

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Re: 74 % said that they Want a new sim NOW

Post by Guillaume Mistwalker »

I have to wonder: is this an attempt by CLEOPATRA to move onto more favourable and less challenging things, seeing as she is a stand-alone RA member without any friends or faction members in this RA term? I suppose that explains the constant posts about this same topic, the change from other topics that have been discussed in the RA where she was heavily contested, and the constant reminder from her that she "got the most primary votes" — as if to exert some sort of non-existent and extra-constitutional soft power over her other representatives.

As I see this, she is trying to make a scandal out of the LRA's decision to tackle more important and fundamental problems facing our government, rather than working on something that is easy. While it may be productive and the electorate has certainly given the RA a mandate to fulfill, it doesn't deserve to be the first point on every RA agenda.
If she was committed to making a new sim a reality, she should start being productive herself and stop politicking:
make a law, propose a committee/commission, talk with your fellow citizens that you represent.

Gaius Nebuliens Curio (Guillaume Mistwalker)
si enim pecunias aequari non placet, si ingenia omnium paria esse non possunt, iura certe paria debent esse eorum inter se, qui sunt cives in eadem re publica. (Cic. De Rep. 1.32.49)
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Re: 74 % said that they Want a new sim NOW

Post by Bromo Ivory »

Are you willing to discount the "we want a SIM" mandate in the election because you are afraid of Cleo's popularity? I do agree that having the largest number of primary votes does give some additional informal influence in most democracies. But in "how dare you say the sky is blue" partisanship that's in CDS right now, it might not count for as much. Kind of how a very popular President in the US can get hampered by the Tea Party controlled Congress which didn't enjoy a popular majority of the vote, but got it through drawing district lines and other tricks. Not to say this is that exact analogy, but there are some parallels that are worth taking notice of.

Sounds like throwing the baby out with the bathwater, actually, with your dismissal of the popular will.

Perhaps figuring out a way to get the SIM you want with other RA members. the Majority in the RA isn't particularly sympathetic to Cleo.

==
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Re: 74 % said that they Want a new sim NOW

Post by Guillaume Mistwalker »

Actually, as I see it, Bromo, the popular mandate argument falls squarely on both sides. On one side, the popular mandate has given the Xigalias seats in the Chancellorship and in the RA. On the other side, however (and it seems to be forgotten by the Xigalias' supporters), the popular mandate has also given the opposing faction a mandate: three of the five RA seats (a majority!) are occupied by members of the same unofficial faction. In fact, you recognise this when you say, "the Majority in the RA isn't particularly sympathetic to CLEO."

The STV voting system, Bromo, also makes it so that political systems may have candidates which are more representative of the diverse body of citizens' political beliefs. I don't think that it gives any elected candidate the power to say, "I received the most primary votes, therefore my mandate is of greater power or strength than yours" or any other similarly childish and immature rhetoric. All those elected did so with an equal mandate of the people, because of the way in which the system is constituted to provide for preferential voting of candidates and the sharing of other preferential votes if a candidate is disqualified.

Also, I would also note that popularity is an animate thing, often dependent on the perceptions of whomever is doing the statistics. Sure, the election is a popularity contest in a way, but it doesn't guage today's popularity. However, it's two months since the election and I think that, in my opinion, the Xigalias are becoming less popular — however, I may be saying this because the people who I have been speaking to most recently happen to oppose CLEO (i.e., my perception). I think CLEO knows this though and it can explain why, some month and a half after the election, she's going back to the mandate we all received from the referendum, reinvigorating support for it, in an order to garner more political support for her. Though maybe I see it this way because I have been reading The Prince again recently. :)
It's a well-known trick by people who see themselves in the minority of parliamentarian politics. I've done it myself multiple times with my elections in Sandus and with my former political position in the Grand Unified Micronational, an intermicronational organisation comprising a multitude of RL micronations. "The result of such and such said this and I am willing to get such and such done during my tenure, and I request it be done as soon as possible."

Gaius Nebuliens Curio (Guillaume Mistwalker)
si enim pecunias aequari non placet, si ingenia omnium paria esse non possunt, iura certe paria debent esse eorum inter se, qui sunt cives in eadem re publica. (Cic. De Rep. 1.32.49)
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Re: 74 % said that they Want a new sim NOW

Post by Timo Gufler »

Cleo, the referendum said "during the 21st RA term", not "NOW". I was also among those, who expressed their wish, that the new sim was added during this term. Still, that doesn't mean, we want to rush and skip the essential planning and preparations, to meet an artificial deadline. All we need is some patience. :)

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Re: 74 % said that they Want a new sim NOW

Post by cleopatraxigalia »

Then let's get started timo you make nonsense if you say we need to wait to start but plenty of time to plan and need it during this term which is now within 4 months

To complete a sim during the 21st RA term we need to start now. Gwyns Propsal for a contest is a good place to start . The proposal is already written and let's all citizens participate. Her proposal has time lines ....

....the citizens will then vote on theme and builders.

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Re: 74 % said that they Want a new sim NOW

Post by Bromo Ivory »

Guillaume Mistwalker wrote:

Actually, as I see it, Bromo, the popular mandate argument falls squarely on both sides. On one side, the popular mandate has given the Xigalias seats in the Chancellorship and in the RA. On the other side, however (and it seems to be forgotten by the Xigalias' supporters), the popular mandate has also given the opposing faction a mandate: three of the five RA seats (a majority!) are occupied by members of the same unofficial faction. In fact, you recognise this when you say, "the Majority in the RA isn't particularly sympathetic to CLEO."

You know, you seem to be implying that the majority ion the RA does not want to pursue a new SIM in the 21st RA term despite the 74% plebiscite approval of such a plan?

I suspect since you weren't a citizen last election, you didn't see the "proposition" on the ballot about building a new SIM.

The mandate for a new SIM wasn't baked into the election of Ceasar as Chancellor - it was a separate item on the ballot that was not associated with the election of the Chancellor and the RA members. It passed with 74% voting for it.

Hope that clear that up for you.

==
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Re: 74 % said that they Want a new sim NOW

Post by cleopatraxigalia »

Regarding a new sim I support Gwyns idea of a contest where all citizens can enter their proposals And all citizens vote on the outcome of design, as well as who the builders will be and the costs.

http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 69f#p23877

The proposal has been written and I do hope will be approved by the RA soon so that the timelines in it will allow us to get a new sim nicely developed with as many people participating as possible.

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Re: 74 % said that they Want a new sim NOW

Post by Spider Upshaw »

Cleo, I think the only ones that would be allowed to participate or accepted would be your friends like Jerry or Bromo.

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Re: 74 % said that they Want a new sim NOW

Post by Bromo Ivory »

Spider Upshaw wrote:

Cleo, I think the only ones that would be allowed to participate or accepted would be your friends like Jerry or Bromo.

Gosh, so you are saying even Gwyn is in Cleo's thrall? You are certainly giving her a lot of power over you and over CDS.

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Re: 74 % said that they Want a new sim NOW

Post by Timo Gufler »

cleopatraxigalia wrote:

Then let's get started timo you make nonsense if you say we need to wait to start but plenty of time to plan and need it during this term which is now within 4 months

If you make a black & white referendum poll, it's too easy to make black & white conclusions from it. Still, there are many shades of gray. My point is, that it's not wise to rush. The Northern Hemisphere has a vacation season now and many people spend less time at computer. If we try push the new region plans through now, when only few have a chance to concentrate on them, the result won't be democratic.

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Re: 74 % said that they Want a new sim NOW

Post by cleopatraxigalia »

Timo I heard you the first time and that's just kind of not an issue to me. We have 80 people available to help with the new sim. If the only reason you have to not go forward is that some people in the world go on holiday then I find that a non issue. Some people have more time for sl when they are not working. Also you do realize don't you that for an American in a typical job to take more than a week off at a time is unusual. I think you have a good point that some people may go on holiday and that leaves me with this thought. If that is the only reason to stall.....then CLEO votes for us to go full steam ahead and do it soon and get as many people to help as possible. And let's get started with the process sooner rather than later.

to

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Re: 74 % said that they Want a new sim NOW

Post by cleopatraxigalia »

Spider Upshaw wrote:

Cleo, I think the only ones that would be allowed to participate or accepted would be your friends like Jerry or Bromo.

I won't decide this spider. The people will. .

Well the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. And so far I see the chancellor having meetings and inviting EVERYONE to participate. THE SL 11 birthday was open for all to help and I think almost 30 did. The 10th is going that way too. Also the chancellors team has 4 PIO s 5 CDS EMS a treasurer and vice chancellor that team alone is over 10 people. Everyone was asked of they wanted to join the team who could legally join. The people who don't participate don't so by choice.

Spider do you really think I am the one who will decide this matter. LOL. I understand that you may be concerned because of all the misinformation out there by the shadow government and opposition, I assure you that if you will read Gwyns proposal you will see a fair open way of including everyone in CDS.

If people in CDS are not included in things it is because they do not want to be. Anyone can attend meetings. Add to forum posts. Offer to volunteer. Go to govt question hours . Etc.

Maybe you are listening to people who are telling you things that aren't true or giving you old information. The CDS today is more open to everyone volunteering and participating than I've ever seen it.

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Re: 74 % said that they Want a new sim NOW

Post by Timo Gufler »

cleopatraxigalia wrote:

Timo I heard you the first time and that's just kind of not an issue to me. We have 80 people available to help with the new sim. If the only reason you have to not go forward is that some people in the world go on holiday then I find that a non issue. Some people have more time for sl when they are not working. Also you do realize don't you that for an American in a typical job to take more than a week off at a time is unusual. I think you have a good point that some people may go on holiday and that leaves me with this thought. If that is the only reason to stall.....then CLEO votes for us to go full steam ahead and do it soon and get as many people to help as possible. And let's get started with the process sooner rather than later.

That really doesn't sound like a multi-cultural nor a democratic point of view. Around 1/3 of those 80 are offline most of time, the second 1/3 just live here and doen't care about the politics or contributing, and then we have only the last 1/3 who can contribute and participate, when they have time. If a minority of them want to go on "full steam" without taking into account rest of them, well ... that's far from the spirit of democracy. I really can't see any good reason, why we should rush, to get the new region. When I participated to the meetings of New Guild and Moon was leading them, the planning progressed only, when she had time and there were no voices to hurry up. Those good times seem to be gone, unfortunately.

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