Asking for my lands back

[Rosie Gray]

I am positive the settings are right as I recently fell behind myself so I received the notices.

Jon, I'm the first to say I'm sorry you lost your land and I have to be up at 6am Wednesday so if you want me to try to buy them back for you, I will do so happily - even though you and I are ostensibly on opposite sides of the aisle, because I believe we are all truly in this together and honestly, reclaiming parcels from CDS citizens in arrears has got to be the suckiest part of the Chancellor job description there is.

Rosie, I was unable to reclaim Jamie's parcels, as I have explained elsewhere in these forums.

Tor's policy, and I followed his lead, had been to give grace to well-established citizens based on the policy that it is bad to lose citizens and some grace is good to give when we have reasonable rights to believe they will be good for it (Jamie is the OWNER of our CDS group, fo'gawdsakes!). However, our laws say different and as long as everyone understands the Chancellor is acting impartially and consistently under the law, hopefully people won't get too alienated about it.

Did I mention reclaiming parcels sucks?!

NOT that Tor was doing this deliberately, but the reason I believe he is still so well-liked in CDS is because the sims were half-full so he could be lax about permissions to rez on public land, in fact (as I heard it) inviting people to do so to dress things up a bit; he didn't reclaim parcels because it meant losing another citizen; all of these are very pleasant memories for citizens to think of when they think of Tor. The reality, though, is that Chancellor is an ugly job that at best puts your friends on edge and further alienates anyone who is slightly bugged by you....the ONLY protection the Chancellor has is to endeavor to be as utterly consistent and above-board in the application of the laws as possible - but even that is not always a defense - as this thread illustrates.

I agree that the Hippo settings must be correct, unless someone has changed them recently, since they were correct before. Only the ones with Hippo access currently will know that now.

Really the Chancellor job doesn't have to be ugly or alienating to most people, if it is handled with tact and thoughtfulness. I don't see much tact or thoughtfulness from our currenct Chancellor though. There is a way to apply the laws in a consistent manner while at the same time being respectful of people and trying your utmost to contact them if you see them delinquent with their tier and in particular to do this when you know they have been a long term citizen. I know Tor always did that. Having a number of experienced and trustworthy EM's to assist also makes that job a lot easier.

[Bagheera]

Having a number of experienced and trustworthy EM's to assist also makes that job a lot easier.

yes, it would.

[Garnet Psaltery]

14 days in arrears and Jon's lands were snatched away, and people are saying oh no he couldn't possibly have missed IMs. Jon, why the hell would you want to come back to CDS the way it is now? If you're desperate and there's nothing else, you can have my shop and prim land. That would mean my giving up citizenship but it would be worth it to reinstate someone like you - if you can bear it!

[Tor Karlsvalt]

Regarding contacting people, I normally did the following:

• Sent IM. Usually with a more personal message on the order of a reminder and a gentle threat.

• Sent a NC. This was similar to the IM but I was more confident that it would get through if IM were capped. I think IM can be capped if one does not log in for several days.

• Depending on my connection to the citizen, I sent a Facebook message, email, or private message using the forum

I generally had good success. Contrary to what some might say, most paid up and were kept as citizens. I did not play favorites. I never even worried how people were voting. Indeed, my nagging messages might have angered some people. It was not uncommon for tier to be paid, but no reply given to me.
In at least one instance, I knew the person to be a political enemy. He fell behind in tier twice. Once I recouped back tier and he was good for a number of months. Then he fell behind. By that time, the land market had changed and it was no longer viable to keep salable land off the market and tied up under the ownership of an absent citizen.

I will agree that what makes good sense in a slow land market does not make sense when demand is high. However, I note there in two instances we have stable citizens who have returned in world just a day after their lands have been seized. Now, it seems we might be better off recouping the 14 days tier in these situations and returning the land. Perhaps one idea would be to reclaim the land so it could not be sold and the owner would not have use of the land, but to let the hippo tier calculation keep running. For chronically late long time citizens, CDS might at least be ensured the tier for the overdue days and the Citizen would keep his land with a slightly bruised ego.

There a many ways to look at this. Rest assured no matter what the Chancellor does, he will be criticized. But I do know, if one is to err it is best to err on the compassionate side and not the imperious side. We are a business to be sure, but we are a community first.

That said, please everyone, save all of us the drama and the chancellor the extra work and pay your tier ON TIME!!!!

Tor

[Patroklus Murakami]

I think that in these circumstances the land should be set for sale to Jon only and any tier that is owed should be paid so he is in credit and no tier has been lost to CDS.

Following a strict interpretation of our laws and automatically kicking people after 14 days is one way you can operate as Chancellor and it does have the advantage of being unambiguous. Some people will see that as being more fair (I don't). But to carry this out requires two things - strict adherence to the letter and spirit of the law so that people get fair warning and also communication of this to citizens at large. I don't believe this change in interpretation and practice has been properly explained to our citizens. Ceasar has not consulted with the people who will be affected. If he did so, he might find that the people who voted for him would prefer an Executive that supports citizens rather than a 'Tier Enforcer' with no flexibility.

When I was Chancellor I inherited one person who was 40 days or more overdue on their tier. I tried to make contact with people, as Tor did, via IM and then via notecards saying clearly what would happen if they did not pay their overdue tier. Some paid up and were apologetic but also appreciative that I took the time to contact them. Others did not respond, had not logged into SL for ages and did not complain when their parcels were taken back and put up for sale. I would never have treated a long-standing citizen like Jon in this way. This is the guy who has been helping us to hold elections for years and has spent considerable time programming to deal with our changes in policy and practice! And this is the way we repay that as a community?

Ceasar might be able to point to law and say "I'm just following orders" but this is not the kind of behaviour I want to see from our Chancellor.

[JerryDon Lane]

I think that in these circumstances the land should be set for sale to Jon only and any tier that is owed should be paid so he is in credit and no tier has been lost to CDS.

Following a strict interpretation of our laws and automatically kicking people after 14 days is one way you can operate as Chancellor and it does have the advantage of being unambiguous. Some people will see that as being more fair (I don't). But to carry this out requires two things - strict adherence to the letter and spirit of the law so that people get fair warning and also communication of this to citizens at large. I don't believe this change in interpretation and practice has been properly explained to our citizens. Ceasar has not consulted with the people who will be affected. If he did so, he might find that the people who voted for him would prefer an Executive that supports citizens rather than a 'Tier Enforcer' with no flexibility.

When I was Chancellor I inherited one person who was 40 days or more overdue on their tier. I tried to make contact with people, as Tor did, via IM and then via notecards saying clearly what would happen if they did not pay their overdue tier. Some paid up and were apologetic but also appreciative that I took the time to contact them. Others did not respond, had not logged into SL for ages and did not complain when their parcels were taken back and put up for sale. I would never have treated a long-standing citizen like Jon in this way. This is the guy who has been helping us to hold elections for years and has spent considerable time programming to deal with our changes in policy and practice! And this is the way we repay that as a community?

Ceasar might be able to point to law and say "I'm just following orders" but this is not the kind of behaviour I want to see from our Chancellor.

I couldn't disagree more, Pat. Enforcement of our laws is EXACTLY what I want to see from this Chancellor and all of them. Justice is supposed to be blind as to race, creed, color, sexual orientation, gender, religious beliefs, social status or any other quality. ALL people in a democracy are to be treated with equal rights no matter who they are, or who they know.

This attitude is EXACTLY what is wrong with your side: elitism........Many of you care more about WHO one is or how long they have lived here as to whether or not the law applies equally to them. That is not democracy by any stretch of the imagination.

No special treatment should be given Jon just because of who he is, what he has done for CDS or how long he has lived here. The laws apply equally to him, to me, to you and to the resident who just paid his first tier today.

Let's be a micronation of law. No more 'good old boy' politics....Those days are over. Let the people run this government now.

[cleopatraxigalia]

Jon.
Thanks it seemed that parcel had something else on it over the years. Not sure,has it been there nonstop since 2006 ?

Anyway I recall the builds you has early on and I also regard them as historic i have sasly watched them disappear ine by one the builds in private parcels this is to be expected. But public builds we have the ability ti preserve properly.

l invite you to join me in writing an historic building law proposal for cds.

Brians amphitheater is gone and no effort at all was made at all to keep any flavor or feel of the former build. This goes for the the schloss the kirche etc. I'm not saying these were mistakes bit how far do we go in redesigning public builds and losing all of what cds looks like now. The new buildings have no resemblance to their historic predecessors. If we don't start a preservation Society of some kind a future administration will be able to wipe more history of cds. Of course things have to be updated but redesigns can happen with respect to the past. For example. Your current parcel could be redesigned completely OR a replica of it could be made in mesh and have a higher quality texture that is reminiscent of the older building keeping it's feel and look while lowering prims and using newer techniques .....While of course there are times to wipe the slate clean and start over and I think there are times to change completely BUT I'd like to see an effort in cds to retain some of our visual history and "sense of place" .

The praetorium Moon built would be on of the builds I'd like to see protected as well as the Moca and the bridge in NFS amd the rathaus I am .sure you have things on your list as well.

I hope you get your land back. I assume you took your build yourself so you can easily re rez it .....it was there after it had been reclaimed. So I assume you took it.

As I recall, that land was originally the land that Michel Mannen had his wonderful build on in the first days of CN? I owned the parcel across the sidewalk from it back in 2007. You were always so sweet to help me with the house you built that I lived in for a long time. But I as I recall that land you just lost was first Michels with his Creado building. shrugs

Actually you have this wrong. Michel had the plot just to the north. The villa was part of the original CN build.

[cleopatraxigalia]

Do we get to do that for my friend who lost his land that day too? Or does Jon Seattle get special rights above a newer, friend of cleo citizen.

Who decides who matters more ? And if we do this for Jon do we give back everyone ? Can you make me a Priveleged Class of CDS list. And let the chancellor know who gets leeway and who doesn't .

Perhaps you should read the executive announcements where Ceasar described what he would do with Land. It was made public to everyone.

The WAY YOU Took AND Sold land you used your priveleges on when to take land and when to sell it. And the outcomes show that when ceasar so far sells land they are redistributed fairly. Go look at who has purchased on land sale days in this admin. And look at who GOT land when you were chancellor. Your admin resulted in Rosie having one of the best small exclusive parcels in NFS. I had no opportunity to try to buy that. Yet under ceasar s administration. EVERYONE has the same opportunity to buy any land that comes available and they know ahead of time.

I think that is a much fairer situation. And yes. Everyone has been notified. The privileged class in CDS is who loses in this administration. Where what I see is fairness across the board.

Lack of notification claims are false and seem to me to be a red herring. And a way to redirect our attention from how unfairly this has been handled up until now.

I think we have to keep making this process more fair and even so everyone gets exactly the same chance at everything. Especially since land equals votes. This will be more important as we get close to elections.

With chancellor discretion at play. This can happen The allowing extra time to pay tier has the Consequence of keeping out a new citizen who could vote. This is why every parcel has to have a strict interpretation. I have seen parcels go so far in arrears while new citizens wanted in cds but ni land was available. but the chancellor had leeway to say. "I have known this person for years they always come back so the fact they are 61 days in arrears" I will wait and keep trying to get him. I'll hold it off the market. " . " tack on the unsaid fact. ...... And the person 61 days in arrears votes for my team. not yours like a new person so why would I take their land and let a new person come in and vote for you? This could happen with chancellor discretion

How and when land is reclaimed and set for sale Has to be set in stone strictly interpreted. This is how we remove chancellors powers. By insisting they follow the law and do not show favorites ever in any way.

This admin has been the first I've seen to handle land fairly. Hip hip hurray.

I think that in these circumstances the land should be set for sale to Jon only and any tier that is owed should be paid so he is in credit and no tier has been lost to CDS.

Following a strict interpretation of our laws and automatically kicking people after 14 days is one way you can operate as Chancellor and it does have the advantage of being unambiguous. Some people will see that as being more fair (I don't). But to carry this out requires two things - strict adherence to the letter and spirit of the law so that people get fair warning and also communication of this to citizens at large. I don't believe this change in interpretation and practice has been properly explained to our citizens. Ceasar has not consulted with the people who will be affected. If he did so, he might find that the people who voted for him would prefer an Executive that supports citizens rather than a 'Tier Enforcer' with no flexibility.

When I was Chancellor I inherited one person who was 40 days or more overdue on their tier. I tried to make contact with people, as Tor did, via IM and then via notecards saying clearly what would happen if they did not pay their overdue tier. Some paid up and were apologetic but also appreciative that I took the time to contact them. Others did not respond, had not logged into SL for ages and did not complain when their parcels were taken back and put up for sale. I would never have treated a long-standing citizen like Jon in this way. This is the guy who has been helping us to hold elections for years and has spent considerable time programming to deal with our changes in policy and practice! And this is the way we repay that as a community?

Ceasar might be able to point to law and say "I'm just following orders" but this is not the kind of behaviour I want to see from our Chancellor.

[Delia Lake]

I'll add my name to the list of people who's IMs get capped. Capped IMs happens to me not occasionally but regularly, even though I usually log in to SL a number of times a week. Mostly I do see many of the Hippo notices for my parcels. One time within the last month though the first notice that came though to me was that I had 43 minutes left on my time. I immediately went to the kiosk and paid it but had I not logged in that evening I would have had no IMs come through on that parcel at all during the notice period.

[Widget Whiteberry]

1. Others have pointed out the technical challenges concerning notification. I've a perhaps useful bit to add to that. I promote three weekly programs produced in SL, two at CDS. I send group notices, announce in group chat, send to an SL email list, announce in FaceBook, add to SL search. Several years ago, hoping to cut back on a growing workload, I asked for feedback about the most effective way to reach people. The responses were spread evenly among all choices. Different people use different platforms for various purposes. We use most of those platforms in our roles as CDS citizens. And each of those platforms has limits. Redundancy is our friend.

2. Throughout SL, one remark I hear consistently is that 'RL comes first.' Making allowances for real life is common sense and common courtesy. It's essential for building community, let alone creating and sustaining civil society.

Nothing I know or have heard of Jon suggests that he is not a fully engaged, responsible and committed citizen of CDS. I think we owe ourselves the security of knowing that as problems arise, we will have adequate opportunity to remedy them.

3. Time to clean up another part of law.

[Gwyneth Llewelyn]

While I'm all in favour of being stricter on the land reclaiming act, I also think that the strictness should be enforced at the notification level as well.

Rosie, not so long ago, told me that on one hand, I was publicly defending strictness in complying with tier payments; while at the same time I had some land overdue for more than 14 days. And I immediately checked and found that she was absolutely correct.

Why? Because, like Delia pointed out — and I'm sure I've posted this before as well — IMs and notecards are not always a 'safe' method of delivery. My IMs get invariably capped, and LL turned off the nice system that would send you IMs by email. This works sometimes but it's incredibly unreliable. When things are important, I use email (not even private messages in the forums; they're more reliable than IMs, but not 100% reliable, as there are message limits — only 100 on the Inbox, I think — and then you don't get any more messages. So, yes, they're capped too!). Email is also not 100% reliable — mostly because of spam filters — but it goes a long way to make things better. Almost everybody in the CDS has a valid email address, since almost everybody is registered on the forums, and you need a valid email for registration. But... people can change email addresses, too, and that means you might not be able to reach them.

Notecards aren't 100% reliable, either. Some viewers, by default, delete the notecard if you press the wrong button, i.e. the one for not accepting the notecard. Others silently deliver the notecard, which gets stored with your other 53 thousand assets and is completely lost — if you aren't paying attention. So, while notecard delivery is 'safer' than IMs, it's not perfect either. I have often been gently reminded that someone sent me a notecard, and I was completely baffled about it, asking them to send it again because I must have pressed the wrong button... only to find that I had actually received the first notecard when receiving a copy.

I'm for an automated solution that locks the land after 14 days of delinquency — if we can get a method of notification that is 100% reliable. Or, well, 99.9999% reliable at least. There are technical ways to do that, and I'm sure that the 'new' land management system might be able to deal with that. It seems that in Jon's case he certainly was interested in keeping his land, and if any form of notification had reached him, even if he couldn't log in, he would have asked one of his friends to pay the tier fees on his behalf — after all, the Hippo system allows that.

On the other hand, how many different notification systems must the Chancellor try out until he finally reaches someone who is in arrears? Our experience is that Chancellors cannot try out an infinite number of systems, continuously, over and over again... and never get a response. So there has to be a cap somewhere, within limits. I think that's the reason why we have stuck to the 'two different kinds of notification' law (IM + notecard). Both have the advantage that they are built-in in SL and don't require any violation of privacy (forcing someone to publicly disclose their email address might be a privacy violation). Both, unfortunately, are unreliable.

So, as Widget said, we need to change that law. Right now, the only thing that comes to my mind is to have people voluntarily give their email address to the Chancellor as a third way of receiving notifications. But there is something else we could add: if, after repeated failures of notification, the citizen still fail to pay their tier, land ought to be placed for sale — but if that citizen logs in immediately afterwards, then he or she should be allowed to have priority in buying their land back. So 'buying the land back' would be like a fee. Sort of like some companies (power utilities, domain name registrars) who charge you extra for reconnecting your service. In particular, domain name registrars are perhaps the closest thing that comes to my mind: you get 3-5 notifications before the date is due; then access to the domain is locked, but you still get a chance to pay for it, one or two weeks after the expiration date; afterwards, your domain name goes up for auction. You can still try to buy it back, of course, but it's an auction and you'd pay several times for it. I have been through something like that in some cases, when registration data on one domain name was 'wrong' (e.g. emails going to the wrong address, domain name tied to an account that has been blocked or seized, etc.). I think we could do something similar in the CDS. Yes, it would still be a nuisance for the citizen in arrears, but at least we would be enforcing things with rigour and strictness, while still giving the citizen a chance to 'pay a fee' and get the land back.

I'll try to see if I can post an amendment to the current law and let it go up for discussion.

[Gwyneth Llewelyn]

Here goes my proposed amendment: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 249#p29249

[Callipygian]

...
On the other hand, how many different notification systems must the Chancellor try out until he finally reaches someone who is in arrears? Our experience is that Chancellors cannot try out an infinite number of systems, continuously, over and over again... and never get a response. So there has to be a cap somewhere, within limits. I think that's the reason why we have stuck to the 'two different kinds of notification' law (IM + notecard). Both have the advantage that they are built-in in SL and don't require any violation of privacy (forcing someone to publicly disclose their email address might be a privacy violation). Both, unfortunately, are unreliable. ...

...

I'll try to see if I can post an amendment to the current law and let it go up for discussion.

Therein lies part of the issue Gwyn, and I don't see that addressed in your amendments (although I may have missed on my quick read through). The law doesn't say IM + notecard - it says IM or notecard leaving notification potentially the the least reliable method for some accounts.

Here is the actual text:
...
2.The CDS Executive Branch shall provide for notice (which may be by IM or notecard) to each land owner when they have failed to pay tier rental by the established due date within 5 days of the delinquency.
3. Five calendar days after the due date, a landowner who has failed timely to pay rental tier becomes a ‘provisional citizen’, and shall not have the right to vote or hold office in the CDS until and unless all amounts overdue to CDS are paid in full. The citizen shall receive a notice (by IM or notecard) advising her or him of this risk and imminent change is status, and noting the deadline for final payment pursuant to this Act.
...
7. The CDS Executive Branch is encouraged to take reasonable additional steps to notify citizens of past due amounts and all other matters described in this Act, but timely rent payment primarily is the citizen’s responsibility to monitor.

In pointing this out I was not saying Jon was not in arrears or that the Chancellor should play favourites, but pointing out that 'reasonable additional steps' may not have been used here. While they may not be *required* by the letter of the law, the wording 'encouraged' suggests to me that the writers of the law hoped for something more than 'the Hippo sends IMs'. In addition it appears that not all such reclaims have received the same levels of notification.

Cleo has asked elsewhere should her friend who had land repossessed that day get the same treatment if Jon's land is returned and I'd answer 'yes -if he or she also did not receive adequate reminders'.

Bagheera has posted that:

...As the Hippo sends out automated regular, repeated IM notices of delinquency, the notices are always sent (and more than just 2). I believe Ceasar IM'd Jon directly at least once but he would have to confirm that. Nevertheless, Hippo sends out IM reminders when one falls behind in tier, I would imagine that fulfills the notification requirement in its current form....

and in a later post:

...I have sent out notecards earlier for Ceasar to let citizens know their land was in danger of being reclaimed. It's a pain when they aren't in my contact list because I have to look up each one individually (and with the new naming system, sometimes it is a challenge to get the name right)....

So my concern re: those who have lost land in this, and my request regarding publishing of the protocols being used is based on this: if others have been sent notecards and Jon and Cleo's friend were not, that does not give the appearance that

..the Chancellor is acting impartially and consistently under the law..

Please consider cleaning up that ' + versus or' in your proposal Gwyn

Calli

[Gwyneth Llewelyn]

Aw Calli. Thanks for noticing that. Yes, that 'or' should have been an 'and'. I've posted version 2.1 of the proposal: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 261#p29261

[Delia Lake]

Mulling this over a bit more today, it seems to me that yes these issues of citizenship and "ownership" are about the law, but they are also about much more. In Tor's post he recounted his practice as Chancellor when he found someone was falling behind: IM + notecard, and facebook, and email if he had it. Does that take more time to do? Of course. Lots more time? No. It's not like we hafe 80,000 citizens and in any month 10,000 might fall behind in tier payments. We have a little over 80 citizens most of whom pay their tier on time or catch it quickly if they missed for whatever reason. It seems to me that within the 14 days between due/ovedue and reclaiming that the Chancellor could reach out in all of these ways to those few citizens. It's not required by law but it is the neighborly thing to do, imo. It doesn't take much in time and effort to do this and the payback in community good will is great.