Duplicate spaces

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Claude Desmoulins
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Duplicate spaces

Post by Claude Desmoulins »

Several recent threads have put forward that sim boundaries are arbitrary and efforts to nurture sim distinctiveness or local autonomy are misguided. If this is truly how people feel, it calls into question some CN planning decisions. If one executive can handle both sims, why does CN have it's own government building. Why do we have/need two public open spaces.

Let me hasten to add that in some things, like the amphitheatre, we have broadened our available resources, but there seems to be a great deal of infrastructure even so.

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Post by Beathan »

Claude -

Are you proposing that we privatize and sell governmental property as a means to raise revenue and encourage immigration?

As an advocate of local autonomy and distinctiveness, I oppose this proposal. Further, I think before we consider such a proposal we should let CN operate for a while to see if real distinctiveness emerges in a desirable way. We can always sell off government property later.

Similarly, I think that we should encourage unique Roman institutions within CN -- such as by creating the office of Praetor. Again, if the institutions prove to be true duplicates because sim distinctiveness does not emerge, we can merge offices later.

However, if we prevent local distinctivenss from emerging, we could lose something useful, liberating and interesting. I wouldn't want to make this sacrifice without good reason.

Further, before we sell off governmental property, I think we should show that we have a need and a market. In this case, restraint is just good economic common sense. Government property can be thought of as a reserve -- as a land bank of sorts. It is available as a source of funds in the event of a crisis. Selling it merely because it is conceptually duplicative strikes me as similar to depleting a savings account (or committing the old-money sin of "spending capital") merely because it is there. If we spend it because it is there, it won't be there if we come to need it.

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Post by Claude Desmoulins »

No proposal is intended here. I was really just trying to ask a question and start a discussion. I'll try to restate my point more clearly.

The current design of CN with its own "government house" and public open space seems to lend itself to the kind of local/regional autonomy you've called for. If, on the other hand, we choose a scenario with little local/regional autonomy, I can't see what the purpose of these spaces is.

I'm not suggesting at this point that we sell the plot. I would like someone to explain to me what it's there for if we don't have a Praetor or some such position.

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Post by Jon Seattle »

I propose that we hold the RA meetings in each sim on rotation so as to make it very clear to everyone no one sim that is the 'capital'. A geographically distributed administration seems like the best policy as we grow. There are several other points about Colonia Nova in particular:

1. Provision for public space used for gatherings. Colonia Nova lacks many of the public non-commercial spaces of Neufreistadt. This is because it was required to be more commercial. Presumably your party supported that requirement?

2. The theme. Rome was known for it's government and public works. We could hardly implement that theme without the government center.

3. Colonia Nova has a [u:3oylnlin]lot[/u:3oylnlin] of commercial space. It is not clear to me that it needs more or that it would sell.

I assume you are not arguing that Colonia Nova ought to have an autonomous government just because it has a Roman government building. That would be putting the cart before the horse!

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Post by Ranma Tardis »

I think certain citizens are making more of my proposal then what was intended. I merely wish that the residents of the Colonia Nova decide certain items of local interest to Colonia Nova. Neufreistadt would have the same right to do this if desired. I never asked for an autonomous government for Colonia Nova. However after being put down by the heads of the two factions, I am beginning to rethink my position.
I liked how my ideal of a "town hall" got put down. True it cannot make any binding decisions but it gives the members of the RA a chance to hear what the citizens think on different subjects. I am disappointed in the RA's lack of interest in what the communities desire and also the take it or leave it attitude, it is rather rude.
I also liked the attitude that the citizens of Neufreistadt paid for Colonia Nova and are angry at the prospect of the sim having any self-determination. I answer this by reminding everyone that the citizens of Colonia Nova are either current citizens of Neufreistadt or have been in the past and have put up a lot of the cash to pay for it. I have bought a lot and helped finance it through a loan. The thought of Colonia Nova taking off with the sim and leaving our brothers and sisters behind is laughable.
We are so much stronger tougher than separate. It does nobody any good to alienate the residents of the other sim or for a central government to make all of the decisions. Next I will have someone tell me how to furnish the interior of my villa because the government dictates it and because it is law written by the 5 members of the RA it is beyond being questioned.
We need to be friends and stop these petty arguments before they consume our community.

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Post by Jon Seattle »

Ah Ranma, my comment:

[quote:u666z3l7]I assume you are not arguing that Colonia Nova ought to have an autonomous government just because it has a Roman government building. That would be putting the cart before the horse![/quote:u666z3l7]

was directed at Claude, not you.

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Post by Claude Desmoulins »

Jon, I am arguing what I think is the contrapositive, though my memory of the terminology of formal logic is rusty, that is:

If Colonia Nova is not going to have an autonomous government of some kind, there is no particular reason for it to have a Praetorium.

As to your list.

When the parameters for the sim design competition were drawn up, there was widespread agreement on two things

a) there was large amount of public land in NFS proper (about one of every three square meters)

b) A similarly high proportion of public land was not needed in the new sim, as many public spaces (Platz, Rathaus, Biergarten) already existed and did not need to be duplicated.

The original CN proposal referenced both a Praetorium and a Praetor. The former was needed primarily so the latter would have somewhere to be.

This leaves the question of theme. I worry that the Praetorium will end up nothing but a pretty set piece. One can make a good argument that the Schloss has already become such.

I fail to see what function of the Praetorium , other than looking pretty and thematically appropriate , can't be met by existing CDS public structures. Our experiences in NFS should have taught us that the creation of pretty but barely used public spaces is not a pattern we ought repeat.

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Post by Jon Seattle »

You did not respond to my proposal that we distribute RA meetings equally between Neufreistadt and Colonia Nova. I take it you and the DPU oppose that plan?

Do you want to establish Neufreistadt and a capital over Colonia Nova, or can we treat both regions as equal partners in the CDS? If equal partners, half of all RA meetings should be held at Colonia Nova. Lets start with the next meeting.

You are wrong about the purpose of the Praetorium. I have it directly from the chief architect herself that it was always intended as a community gathering place. The design for CN has been approved (less the definition of the Praetor) and you would have to pass a brand new bill to keep the SPC from executing the plan to build the Praetorium. I doubt you want to push a new bill to destroy the aesthetic integrity of Colonia Nova and deprive it’s residents of a meeting place. I certainly would not back any such proposal.

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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Jon Seattle":k3axj7tb]You did not respond to my proposal that we distribute RA meetings equally between Neufreistadt and Colonia Nova. I take it you and the DPU oppose that plan? [/quote:k3axj7tb]

An alternative would be for the RA to meet at the Rathaus, and for the SC to meet at the Preratorium.

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Post by Beathan »

Ashcroft wrote [quote:22v2svs0]An alternative would be for the RA to meet at the Rathaus, and for the SC to meet at the Preratorium.[/quote:22v2svs0]

This is a good compromise, which allows preservation of civic infrastructure so that it will be there if we need it for a civic function or if we need it for liquidation in the future (as I mentioned in a previous post). Also, splitting government functions betwen different regions (even to the point of calling each a capital -- executive capital; judicial capital; legislative capital; etc.) has a solid history and demonstrates equality among the sims and respect of each sim for the other. The primary reason for geographic unity of government function -- the barrier to communication posed by distance -- does not exist in SL. For that reason, there seems no good reason to unify government geographically.

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Post by Jon Seattle »

For most of us this is no compromise at all. What we need to communicate to everyone is that they have an equal voice in legislation, no mater what sim they reside in. The only way to do that is to hold RA meetings in all CDS sim regions.

In the past Claude has expressed his opinion that we need not remain a unified republic but instead become a loose confederacy. If you wanted to split up the CDS a good way to do that is to make the residents of one region feel less enfranchised or less important because they live in another location.

For a non-lawyer, the SC represents a necessary function, but still one that it top-down and involved in enforcing the logic of law not the current voice of the people. Putting it in Nova Colonia does not communicate that NC residents have an equal voice.

This has nothing at all to do with Claude’s very strange crusade to destroy a particular building in the sim. In fact it may make more sense to hold RA meetings at the amphitheater.

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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Jon Seattle":1mqumz7e]For most of us this is no compromise at all. What we need to communicate to everyone is that they have an equal voice in legislation, no mater what sim they reside in. The only way to do that is to hold RA meetings in all CDS sim regions.[/quote:1mqumz7e]

Why is that? What is it about the geographical location of a meeting that forms what you contend is a necessary connexion between the people who live and run businesses there and political enfranchisement, that the fact of universal sufferage and the fact that many of the people [i:1mqumz7e]in[/i:1mqumz7e] the legislature live there (and do not forget who was in charge of the whole Colonia Nova project).

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Post by Dianne »

I guess this isn't related so much to the government part of this thread but I must admit as a resident of Neufreistadt some of the Nova Colonia development scares me a bit.

I think the reason for the duplication of government structures was because at that point in time we were not sure if (then) Neualtenburg would even continue, but that is not the case now of course, ... or is it? *bites nails*

I have almost everything I am in SL invested in Neufreistadt and I have done it at great expense. The idea of Nova Colonia being able to "go it alone" with a much more appealing sim and a much more entertaining theme is worrying to say the least.

I have spent many [i:36xdhpxr]hundreds[/i:36xdhpxr] of hours making Bavarian themed items for sale and Bavarian themed knick-knacks for free. I have spent similar amounts of time on the walls, on making replacements for Ulrika's Fachwerks, and on making replacements for those replacements when she complained about them. The flags alone took me weeks to get right, and the same amount of time on the BeerSteins for Oktoberfest that weren't even used. I have also spent many many hours working on the SC, and other government business for Neualtenburg and now Neufreistadt.

For all of this I have received only a few hundred Lindens here or there for the Fachwerks which I sold as products in my store. Everything else was done completely for free.

As it happens I can't [i:36xdhpxr]afford[/i:36xdhpxr] to move to Nova Colonia and with the repairs I have to do on Neufreistadt works, I don't have time to even make things for my own store, let alone for Nova Colonia as well.

I am not [i:36xdhpxr]truly[/i:36xdhpxr] worried yet, i think everyone has the best intentions. I do want to state for the record however, that the idea of Nova Colonia being self-sufficient in culture and government and Neufreistadt being "forgotten about" in any way would be the unkindest cut of all.

We really should work out what the deal is with the two sims sometime real soon. ;)

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Post by Beathan »

Dianne --

I don't think anyone is proposing anything like Colonia Nova separatism. At least, I know that I am not -- and Claude has identified my posts as setting forth the "autonomy" position. Further, I think that if separatism does become part of the debate, compensation as a condition of separatism should also be taken up and ultimately required so that the investment of people like you is not short-changed.

Rather, I think that the separatist impulse is best checked by giving respect for divisions and by accommodating difference. I think that Colonia Nova, with land-use autonomy and (possibly) an ability to set behavioral rules that are different than those in NF, has the ability to enhance NF and the entire CDS through its differences. I am not sure that this accommodation is possible without some institutional component -- some self-government.

Rather, I think the discussion should focus on what institutions and policies can be local, and which must be federal to preserve the general unity of CDS as a state and to preserve the invested effort of everyone who has worked so hard to preserve and enhance the CDS. (Although, in this debate, I do support making as much as possible local -- but that is a different issue, and one that should be taken up separately and possibly after the general discussion on what things can be safely made local and what things must remain federal.)

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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

There is a lot of sense in what Dianne writes. I, too, am a resident of Neufreistadt (having a personal aesthetic preference for the medieval Bavarian theme over the ancient Roman theme, not that I do not love Colonia Nova as well), and would hate to see either any diminution in the unity between all the regions of the CDS, or any diminution in importance of any of them over time.

I live in one of Dianne's houses, much of my furniture is from Dianne's shop, I give out the hand version of Dianne's flags to every new visitor that I see to [i:9f0ywk2w]either[/i:9f0ywk2w] Neufriestadt [i:9f0ywk2w]or[/i:9f0ywk2w] Colonia Nova, and I wait in eager anticipation for the completion of the rewalling, which, so far, is looking good.

Colonia Nova does have some advantage, aside from novelty, in that it was designed with the lessons in urban planning learnt from Neufreistadt in mind. It is certainly true that Neufreistadt could do with some redevelopment in some places: it would be good, for example, if some more people moved into the valley to replace those who have moved out to Colonia Nova (Aliasi and Justice, we miss you, with your airships and bookshelves), and I look forward to the planned redevelopment of the Schloss and Old Altenburg being completed, and not just because I hope that we will be able to have a purpose-built, full-sized courthouse there.

There is much going for Neufreistadt, however: its theme makes it far more suited to Christmas festivities than that of Colonia Nova, and its huge and beautiful church has the potential to attract SL weddings (we should publicise that more). Even without the redevelopment, an astonishigly high number of people whom I take on a tour of Neufreistadt comment in awe and wonderment how beautiful that it is (particular favourite points are the picknick area in the valley, the Marktplatz, the view from outside the Old Altenburg gate, the fachwerks and the Rathaus).

As to local government, franchulates will undoubtedly need the possibility of local government if they are to be an attractive prospect to larger communities (as opposed to small groups or singular commercial ventures), who already come into the CDS with their own culture, but there is no point in them being part of the CDS at all unless they are ultimately subject to our government and our laws. If we end up with many sims other than franchulates, local government may also be favourable as a matter of administrative convenience, but the idea of true self-sufficiency within the CDS is pointless: if one is going to be truly self-sufficient, why be in the CDS at all, rather than, say, form one's own virtual nation from scratch and then form a commonwealth and invite the CDS to join it, and co-operate on things such as enforcement of court orders and economic development. As Gwyn pointed out so eloquently recently, the CDS is not in the business of buying other people islands to experiment with their own forms of government, although there is no reason why we should not provide some educational assistance to those who seek to do so.

As to culture and boundaries, I find myself spending almost as much time in Colonia Nova as Neufreistadt, and consider them to be different parts of the same community. I will often look at the map, and, if nobody is in Neufreistadt, go to Colonia Nova and see who is there, or go to Colonia Nova just to see what is new there. It seems to me that some people are greatly overstating the potential for cultural differences between different CDS sims based on assumptions that they will work in a very similar way to the way in which they work in real life. I rather susepect, therefore, that Dianne has less to fear than she might imagine. Keep up the good work with the walls and the buildings, Dianne: the CDS would not be the same without you.

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