Preventing Abuse of Chancellor Land Powers

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Patroklus Murakami
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Preventing Abuse of Chancellor Land Powers

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

There was a bit of a kerfuffle a few months back about resignations from the RA (or other branches). Without any evidence being presented there was a lot of noise about how a resignation might be 'sat on' or the individual persuaded not to resign by an unscrupulous LRA or Dean. As a result we developed some new procedures which reduce if not remove this risk.

Now we have a similar situation, this time with evidence. The Chancellor has the power currently to abuse his powers by selective application. I believe this is what our current Chancellor is doing in classic sectarian style. He really is demonstrating where the office needs to be constrained by... his abuse of his powers! The Chancellor can make little or no effort to remind perceived opponents that their tier is overdue and wait for the magic 14 days to boot them off their land and, potentially, remove them as citizens.

When people abandon their plots the Chancellor can just choose to sit on them, not put them up for sale, and convince perceived supporters to come back and reclaim their parcels.

So let's have a level playing field. Let's make it the case that where someone abandons their land and/or takes a refund from the Hippo box the Chancellor should IM them or send them a notecard and give them 48 hours in which to reclaim their parcel and pay any tier which is owed before putting the parcel up for sale. That way everyone is treated the same and it's not just the Chancellor's perceived supporters who he bends over backwards to retain as citizens.

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Re: Preventing Abuse of Chancellor Land Powers

Post by Bromo Ivory »

Hey Pat -

I could support that, it allows people in an "oops" situation to not be under a microscope, which I think everyone would appreciate! While I would disagree about the level of inconsistency between this Chancellor and ones in the past - and the current "scandal" being about several situations that aren't at all equivalent, a better policy or law surrounding this would remove it form the realm of speculation, which would help to do a lot to calm people down.

I would love the whole process of reclamation to be codified into law, since having big broad powers over land, really allows big broad powers over citizenship if a Chancellor gets to pick and choose, too.

I feel the Chancellor has much, too much power in general, and I would welcome some sensible limits even beyond this (there are logical limits to power curtailing, but we're nowhere near them yet).

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Re: Preventing Abuse of Chancellor Land Powers

Post by cleopatraxigalia »

Well this is an area that needs to be clarified mostly because past chancellors did NOT have a strict policy they adhere to but instead picked and chose WHO got booted .... In fact. Having all citizens who are 14 days late on tier lose land is FAR MORE fair than how Tor for example implemented the exact same law. Which was by His own discretion of who was worth being let go over and who was to be told to go asap or who was allowed to go 61 days in arrears.

The only thing that is making the chancellors powers too great is allowing past chancellors like Tor and you Pat NOT spell out regulation and implement the same rules across the board.

As long as any rule is the same for everyone we have a democracy. Rule of law. This administration is the most fair in implementing land laws that CDS has ever had. It's by thw same rule for everyone. Look at the fact of who lost land this term. MORE of ceasars supporters than his opponents. The opposite is true for previous admin. Tor used to let his supporters sit in long arrears while kicking out new people regularly and making no bones about how fair this is. He came by it honestly because this is how Sudane also operated when the treasurer had control of this activity.

The proof of the pudding. Look at the list of reclaimed.lamd sure to tier being in arrears now.

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Re: Preventing Abuse of Chancellor Land Powers

Post by Trebor Warcliffe »

cleopatraxigalia wrote:

Well this is an area that needs to be clarified mostly because past chancellors did NOT have a strict policy they adhere to but instead picked and chose WHO got booted .... In fact. Having all citizens who are 14 days late on tier lose land is FAR MORE fair than how Tor for example implemented the exact same law. Which was by His own discretion of who was worth being let go over and who was to be told to go asap or who was allowed to go 61 days in arrears.

The only thing that is making the chancellors powers too great is allowing past chancellors like Tor and you Pat NOT spell out regulation and implement the same rules across the board.

As long as any rule is the same for everyone we have a democracy. Rule of law. This administration is the most fair in implementing land laws that CDS has ever had. It's by thw same rule for everyone. Look at the fact of who lost land this term. MORE of ceasars supporters than his opponents. The opposite is true for previous admin. Tor used to let his supporters sit in long arrears while kicking out new people regularly and making no bones about how fair this is. He came by it honestly because this is how Sudane also operated when the treasurer had control of this activity.

The proof of the pudding. Look at the list of reclaimed.lamd sure to tier being in arrears now.

Cleo it's good that we're all talking about the issue of Chancellor's powers and such and I agree as well that the issue needs to be addressed. What bothers me is this constant rehashing of what was and wasn't done in the past. We can't drive forward if we continue to look in the rearview mirror. Sooner or later we'll crash. I know you have some thoughts and opinions on what the Chancellors powers should and shouldn't be, that's great. Bring that to the discussion. Just doing that will open the doors of thought and allow all of us to have a productive discussion on the topic.

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P.S. Thanks a lot for sticking that Devo song Whip It into my head now!!! LOL

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Why Land freaks everyone out.

Post by Bromo Ivory »

I know the reason Pat posted here is to try to score political points vs. someone he perceives to be a political rival. He lost to him the last election, and undoubtedly anticipates running again next election, so anything he can do to try to undermine things, even slightly, will colour and influence his posts and rhetoric.

But ... in his hurry to lay critique, he's hit upon one of the central sources of conflict, and that's the tying to citizenship to land, and the current shortage of land.

A new SIM would alleviate this to a large degree. I think the people inclined to "hoard land" to personally control who can become a citizen, and to try to tip the next election through recruitment, are very near the limits of what they can hold currently, so a new SIM will release enough land that we will be able to have new citizens free of a lot of vetting and political litmus testing of potential new citizens by current landowning citizen concerned with this sort of distortive behaviour. But it isn't enough.

I would like at the very least the current Chancellor to clarify his policy regarding an "oops" situation if it isn't spelled out currently. It would likely do a lot of alleviate any concern whipped up by partisan warriors looking for political positioning for the next election. I am not too concerned with partisan warriors at the moment, they will find lots of nits to pick, and mountain molehills in the coming couple of months, but regular private citizens.

For me? I have put my Monastery plot set for sale. I am only going to sell it to a ex CDS citizen looking to come back, or a person wanting to be a citizen of CDS. I would encourage others to do the same.

And I am glad the Chancellor's office allows a "oops" reocvery when you are paid up and not in arrears. But perhaps they should spell out the policy.

I do think that the Chancellor is far too powerful, and I think we need to think long and hard on how to keep necessary flexibility pulled together, but not "damage the office" in a fit of partisanship.

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Re: Preventing Abuse of Chancellor Land Powers

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Patroklus Murakami wrote:

Let's make it the case that where someone abandons their land and/or takes a refund from the Hippo box the Chancellor should IM them or send them a notecard and give them 48 hours in which to reclaim their parcel and pay any tier which is owed before putting the parcel up for sale. That way everyone is treated the same and it's not just the Chancellor's perceived supporters who he bends over backwards to retain as citizens.

Accusations of partisan politics and rehashing of the past aside, this was my proposal to rectify the situation. Any thoughts on how to implement it?

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Re: Preventing Abuse of Chancellor Land Powers

Post by Bromo Ivory »

Patroklus Murakami wrote:
Patroklus Murakami wrote:

Let's make it the case that where someone abandons their land and/or takes a refund from the Hippo box the Chancellor should IM them or send them a notecard and give them 48 hours in which to reclaim their parcel and pay any tier which is owed before putting the parcel up for sale. That way everyone is treated the same and it's not just the Chancellor's perceived supporters who he bends over backwards to retain as citizens.

Accusations of partisan politics and rehashing of the past aside, this was my proposal to rectify the situation. Any thoughts on how to implement it?

I did mention that I liked that idea, though I didn't like the partisan rhetoric (since it paints all chancellors with the brush doens't make it better).

I see 2 ways to proceed:

1. A Chancellor should run on their land and reclamation policy (no changes in laws, but changes in accountability) - I feel that the current chancellor is more consistent than many in the past, and doesn't escape partisan rhetoric, so I think this is the weakest way.

2. We have a "Land Reclamation Act" that spells out the way a Chancellor can reclaim land (I happen to like the 14 day policy, it has cut down on arrears I bet), and when they can correct any "oops" situation, but not tying the hands too much. (After all you have to think that YOU may be the next Chancellor, and where do you want what you do spelled out by law so that it removes it from the political theater and just becomes the usual case of a good faith adherence to law.)

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Re: Preventing Abuse of Chancellor Land Powers

Post by Bagheera »

Patroklus Murakami wrote:

There was a bit of a kerfuffle a few months back about resignations from the RA (or other branches). Without any evidence being presented there was a lot of noise about how a resignation might be 'sat on' or the individual persuaded not to resign by an unscrupulous LRA or Dean. As a result we developed some new procedures which reduce if not remove this risk.

Now we have a similar situation, this time with evidence. The Chancellor has the power currently to abuse his powers by selective application. I believe this is what our current Chancellor is doing in classic sectarian style. He really is demonstrating where the office needs to be constrained by... his abuse of his powers! The Chancellor can make little or no effort to remind perceived opponents that their tier is overdue and wait for the magic 14 days to boot them off their land and, potentially, remove them as citizens.

When people abandon their plots the Chancellor can just choose to sit on them, not put them up for sale, and convince perceived supporters to come back and reclaim their parcels.

So let's have a level playing field. Let's make it the case that where someone abandons their land and/or takes a refund from the Hippo box the Chancellor should IM them or send them a notecard and give them 48 hours in which to reclaim their parcel and pay any tier which is owed before putting the parcel up for sale. That way everyone is treated the same and it's not just the Chancellor's perceived supporters who he bends over backwards to retain as citizens.

What fiction are you living in? You are making up stuff.

1. The LAW passed by the RA says parcels are to be reclaimed after 14 days in arrears. Notices are sent.

2. The Chancellor has discretion about everything else but Ceasar decided that giving everyone 14 days to straighten things out would be fair. (48 hours is remotely not enough time. 14 days is close to the same as a government purchase price on a parcel, so the costs will be recovered if a parcel needs to be reclaimed and set for sale)

WHEN YOU FIND someone who has been summarily booted after an oopsie in less than 14 days, you come back and make a valid complaint.

The most disheartening thing about CDS is the partisanship here - where those people who have benefited from being rescued from oopsies are silently reading this or people who I have bent over backwards to contact regarding problems with their tier and because Ceasar is not "their side" politically, they are letting these lies stand and not piping in that they too have made oopsies and had the problem corrected.

The real attack that is happening here is NOT on Ceasar but on innocent citizens who you, Pat, and others have decided must be Ceasar's friends and getting preferential treatment, so they are being dragged into the fray - willy-nilly- and not allowed to peaceably enjoy their time with CDS.

EVERYONE has been TREATED the same. THE day that changes is the day I will quit as EM. You have my word. In the meantime, QUIT harassing innocent citizens by SELECTIVELY going through the land transaction records and singly out citizens who do not share your political inclinations.

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Re: Preventing Abuse of Chancellor Land Powers

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Bagheera wrote:

What fiction are you living in? You are making up stuff.

1. The LAW passed by the RA says parcels are to be reclaimed after 14 days in arrears. Notices are sent.

2. The Chancellor has discretion about everything else but Ceasar decided that giving everyone 14 days to straighten things out would be fair. (48 hours is remotely not enough time. 14 days is close to the same as a government purchase price on a parcel, so the costs will be recovered if a parcel needs to be reclaimed and set for sale)

WHEN YOU FIND someone who has been summarily booted after an oopsie in less than 14 days, you come back and make a valid complaint.

The most disheartening thing about CDS is the partisanship here - where those people who have benefited from being rescued from oopsies are silently reading this or people who I have bent over backwards to contact regarding problems with their tier and because Ceasar is not "their side" politically, they are letting these lies stand and not piping in that they too have made oopsies and had the problem corrected.

The real attack that is happening here is NOT on Ceasar but on innocent citizens who you, Pat, and others have decided must be Ceasar's friends and getting preferential treatment, so they are being dragged into the fray - willy-nilly- and not allowed to peaceably enjoy their time with CDS.

EVERYONE has been TREATED the same. THE day that changes is the day I will quit as EM. You have my word. In the meantime, QUIT harassing innocent citizens by SELECTIVELY going through the land transaction records and singly out citizens who do not share your political inclinations.

I'm not attacking anyone, except perhaps this Executive for their sectarianism. When you felt people were not being treated equally I didn't see you hold back.

I see the Exec booting people after the magic 14 days but bending over backwards for others who have abandoned their parcels and/or got a refund from the Hippo box. There is no consistency in Ceasar's treatment of these situations, just a sectarian calculation of 'who is with me and who is against me' on the basis of who's been booted and who's been 'accommodated'.

As I said originally, big fuss (about nothing) about the *potential* for an LRA or Dean to sit on a resignation and persuade someone not to go. Dealt with.

Now, the *potential* for the Executive to sit on land that someone has abandoned and persuade them to come back and claim their lands. Only now we have evidence that this is what the Executive (or the Chancellor's wife, who knows) has done in relation to two recent incidents. I've proposed a way to take the discretion out and put us all on a level playing field. That's what this Executive administration says it is about. Why all the hysteria?

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I dunno Pat ...

Post by Bromo Ivory »

Instead of getting into a enormous forum flame war, if what Bagheera says is the policy of the Chancellor, I don't have any data to contradict it, and it does explain the "inconsistancies" and "partisanship" at hand as not being all that inconsistent or partisan. For me this is sufficient, but I have no axe to grind or election to win.

Sounds like we also have a law about land repossession, too, which means the Chancellor has little flexibility in that area just like you wanted.

So the only question I have at this point is , is why was I drug through the mud, but just me? Was there some selective combing through of the data because I am friends with the Chancellor? If so, it would represents a new low for CDS.

So sounds like you are offering a solution that is largely taken care of by policy and law already.

Unless you like the Chancellor's policy enough you'd like to codify it into law for when you become Chancellor you are forced to follow it? I could support that one, because it sounds pretty rational, too.

Last edited by Anonymous on Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Preventing Abuse of Chancellor Land Powers

Post by Bagheera »

Patroklus Murakami wrote:

I see the Exec booting people after the magic 14 days but bending over backwards for others who have abandoned their parcels and/or got a refund from the Hippo box.

"magic 14 days" equals following the law the RA passed. What is sad is "Trebor received a notecard" and decided to make a public instance about isolated cases and I am willing to bet dollars to donuts whoever passed him that notecard was not objective in their intent. I am SURE, if you go through the land transactions, you'll see a number of oopsies - which the Chancellor has full discretion to handle in a manner that is in the best interests of CDS and her citizens - i.e. NOT summarily punishing citizens who make mistakes with their land but to do everything possible to make the citizen's land transaction have the outcome they intended.

If it were up to me, I'd double the "magic 14 days" to 28, as Linden Labs gives one month grace and it seems appropriate we should mirror them. That's my own opinion. The "magic 14 days" comes from RA-passed legislation, which the Chancellor is duty-bound to enforce.

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Re: Preventing Abuse of Chancellor Land Powers

Post by Bromo Ivory »

What is sad is "Trebor received a notecard" and decided to make a public instance about isolated cases and I am willing to bet dollars to donuts whoever passed him that notecard was not objective in their intent.

Whoever did that, because it caused me quite a bit of personal grief, is a truly low person, with very little moral character or scruples and an utter coward who lurks in the shadows. They should know that they were complicit in harassing a private citizen, as well as causing a great deal of personal pain to the person behind an avatar in order to nail someone else for some sort of electoral advantage. It's called "the politics of personal destruction" in the US, and it considered the lowest form of politics. And indeed it is. Only a moral toad would contemplate such an action, and it's clear we have one within CDS.

If they were chuckling as I was being drug through the mud - they are truly a slime.

I would post a bunch of swear words about this person, but I think everyone gets my drift.

I would think that Trebor feels used, too, because he became a dupe and a tool as a result. I buried that hatchet with him because I did feel at that point he was not the originator who was too much of a coward to come forward him or herself and ask the EM what was going on, or ask ME. So was it informational? Can't be because you don't go and get information by posting publicly and accuse. It was a pure political ploy. I hope whoever does it loses any election he or she stands for.

And realize, that the largely earned reputation CDS has as being a Drama filled land where you can't help but be drug into like it or not ... realize that that person is a prime contributor.

I am very glad I don't know who it is.

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Re: Preventing Abuse of Chancellor Land Powers

Post by cleopatraxigalia »

Pat,

All citizens who have abandoned land have been treated EXACTLY the same by the current chancellorship as far as I know, the one who was treated differently was the one to whom Tor took it upon himself to try to get the poor citizen to leave promptly, something i have witnessed tor do before. When I have time I will be putting this action by a fellow RA member ( the notecard was signed by tor noting he was in a leadership position in CDS) forward to the SC... I am ashamed of my fellow RA member. . ... I am shim . And any other ones who do the same will be treated the same.

You are again, making things up, like Bagheera said. I have no idea if you are just that unable to see things clearly, or intentionally misinform and twist the truth. .. ??

All citizens in the Same circumstances have been treated the same, no matter what side of the political fence they are on.

I will repeat, because it's relevant to the creation of future legislation and vote casting, that this IS the FIRST chancellorship to operate in a fair way across the partisian lines. That is why you , dear silent majority readers, see the opposition clamouring to make things up.

( including the SC when they strategically find a post "on which to lock the thread " ... )

Patroklus, dear, please give us a list of all the citizens who have been treated in a partisan way....That would mean that the same event equals intentionally different treatment. Show me how this administration has been partisan in how its treated citizens, and I will PERSONALLY take them to task.

The laws allow for chancellor discretion which OTHER administrations, DID use to their own benefit, clearly ... by numbers it has been shown. BUT this administration has made a policy it follows regardless of who the citizen may have voted for.. EXAMPLE... on the day JON SEATTLE lost his land, one of my dearest and oldest SL friends also lost his.. for the EXACT SAME REASON> ... the number 14.

The land sale days have sold MORE land to people on YOUR side than your opponents.

We have choices. Continue to let chancellors have total discretion over how they handle land, and HOPE that in the future that the chancellor's do like this one has and set out a very precise definition of how they will handle things, and hold them accountable.

OR Make a law that REQUIRES chancellors to handle land the way the RA says they should.

I am personally in favor of the RA making laws that require the same treatment for every citizen in every situation and then making sure that they are held accountable.

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Re: Preventing Abuse of Chancellor Land Powers

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

So, we're all agreed then? If someone abandons their land and/or takes a Hippo refund we should give them a 48 hour 'cooling off' period to change their mind and pay back anything owed and only then put the land up for sale?

And that should apply to everyone, not just the Chancellor's friends?

Peachy! :)

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Re: Preventing Abuse of Chancellor Land Powers

Post by Bromo Ivory »

Patroklus Murakami wrote:

So, we're all agreed then? If someone abandons their land and/or takes a Hippo refund we should give them a 48 hour 'cooling off' period to change their mind and pay back anything owed and only then put the land up for sale?

And that should apply to everyone, not just the Chancellor's friends?

Peachy! :)

I'd actually like a law passed saying that if anyone engaged in the politics of personal destruction, that they are forced to be Ruthed for the rest of the citizenship in SL, and be forbidden to use Mesh or sculpties or anything but default hair and skin.

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