Taking the pulse on government structure

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What sort of overall government ought we have?

Keep what we have now.
1
14%
Get rid of everything but the RA.
0
No votes
Devolve responsibility for covenants and maybe more to the sim level.
6
86%
 
Total votes: 7

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Post by Beathan »

Ashcroft wrote

[quote:33p75zvo]Is theme the same thing as culture for us? It is for the Goreans, of course, and there is certainly a close link between theme and culture for the Caledonians, but there is nothing about the culture in Neufreistadt that is specifically medieval Bavarian: our culture is more about politics and intellect and, well, culture itself. Is it not the case that having a theme is important to us, but that what particular theme it is is not, provided that it is aesthetically pleasing and reasonably consistent?[/quote:33p75zvo]

Surely, our culture is more complicated than that -- at least now that there are two sims. It may have been true that when the Bavarian theme was the only option for participation the CDS, then the Bavarianness of the sim mattered less than the intellectual project of the CDS. However, now we have a real choice -- and that choice will matter to some people. (It mattered to me.)

Further, although I have focussed on cultural difference, there is also cultural consensus and the real possibility of shared ideals and elements between and among cultures. Nations have distinct cultures (it is coherent to talk about "American Culture" or "British Culture") while simultaneously having distinct cultures within their over-all structure. Just as American culture is fundamentally democratic, so CDS culture will be fundamentally democratic and intellectual. Thus, the cultural elements you identify should continue to be important -- even critical -- for people who join the CDS (whatever Sim they join). This shared culture makes unitiy possible, even in the face of Sim cultural differences.

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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Beathan":5ai06jhi]I don't. The jury is still out on how and to what extent differences will manifest.

Rather, what I think it is that differences will manifest and, regardless of how they manifest and how extensive they are, they will require some political response. The political response I prefer is accommodation.

This same process arises between nations, between states, between cities, between neighborhoods, even within families. Therefore, to me, the distinctions in your question do not raise relevant differences in principle (although they will inform and shape how we approach and address the differences that in fact arise).[/quote:5ai06jhi]

But you also seem to prefer as much local autonomy as possible - is that consistent with not knowing whether Colonia Nova will be any more different to Neufreistadt than Scarborough is to York?

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Post by Beathan »

Ashcroft asked [quote:1ob4hww6]But you also seem to prefer as much local autonomy as possible - is that consistent with not knowing whether Colonia Nova will be any more different to Neufreistadt than Scarborough is to York?[/quote:1ob4hww6]

Yes -- but I have not yet finished my post on the benefits of local autonomy. I hope to get to it next week after I turn in two appellate briefs due early in the week.

That said, I should state a principle, set forth by Tip O'Neill (former Speaker of the House) that all politics is local. Politics starts and ends with human interaction. It is about people -- and people are local. Ideas are secondary and only play insofar as they matter, and matter to real people.

Further, different people can think different ideas matter -- or can thing that they matter differently. In many (even most) of these cases, both positions are legitimate and worthy of respect and instantiation by government. However, the positions might be contradictory, which would prevent them from being simultaneously implemented by the same government. The solution to this problem, the one that provides full respect to everyone who deserves respect, is to create multiple governments so that each position can have a place in the state, even though they contradict each other. This cannot happen if we have a unified federal government that monopolizes governmental action.

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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Beathan":3ipg11d2]That said, I should state a principle, set forth by Tip O'Neill (former Speaker of the House) that all politics is local. Politics starts and ends with human interaction. It is about people -- and people are local. Ideas are secondary and only play insofar as they matter, and matter to real people.[/quote:3ipg11d2]

That doesn't say anything about what particular degree of local autonomy that any given deliniation should have. "As much as possible" could mean each little homestead having its own state.

[quote:3ipg11d2]Further, different people can think different ideas matter -- or can thing that they matter differently. In many (even most) of these cases, both positions are legitimate and worthy of respect and instantiation by government. However, the positions might be contradictory, which would prevent them from being simultaneously implemented by the same government. The solution to this problem, the one that provides full respect to everyone who deserves respect, is to create multiple governments so that each position can have a place in the state, even though they contradict each other. This cannot happen if we have a unified federal government that monopolizes governmental action.[/quote:3ipg11d2]

Now, I am afraid that this does not make any sense: the boundaries that you describe here are between [i:3ipg11d2]individuals[/i:3ipg11d2], not between [i:3ipg11d2]geographical areas[/i:3ipg11d2]. It is true that government should allow people as much control over their own lives as is consistent with acheiving the benefits for which government exists in the first place, but, once it is recognised that, in respect of any particular matter, some sort of governmental control is necessary, why is it better to have lots of potentially contradictory rules all over the place than a single, unified rule? Surely whatever reasons suffice to demonstrate that the matter in question is indeed a matter suitable for governmental control in the first place also, without a specific reason in the particular case to the contrary (such as administrative convenience, or the fact that some rules are expressly about specific features of some local areas), suffice to demonstrate that there should be rule-unity on the point? Indeed, is not a need for a rule precisely a need for unity? What is the point of a rule [i:3ipg11d2]but[/i:3ipg11d2] to achieve unity?

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Post by Beathan »

Ashcroft --

Your response fails to take into account that different individual liberties might contradict each other -- so it is simply not possible for a single government to enact laws that maximize and fully protect liberty. The protection of one liberty can easily be the denial of another.

My favorite example of this concerns speech. In America, freedom of speech is widely accepted, protected and acknowledged. We have, as national policy, a right to free speech. However, this is at the cost of what I call freedom from speech. If speech is fully protected everywhere, then there is no place where a person can escape from speech (or from certain kinds of speech) except their own home (and even that has limits). Forcing people to be hermits to avoid noxious speech does not seem very liberating. Speech freedom should protect the sensitive as well as the loud.

This can be accomplished by providing a public space -- a geographic place -- for both kinds of speech freedom. Thus, properly understood, there is no distinction between personal/individual freedom and geographic freedom. In order for an individual to be free, that person must be free in some place -- and in order for that freedom to be public (given the respect it deserves) that place must be a public space.

I assert this this respects and protects both freedom of speech (which can occur in one public space) and freedom from speech (which is provided by a different public space). To me, this system is more protective of liberty overall by respecting and providing more kinds of liberty and more people liberty than is a system that fully protects one kind of liberty at the expense of another.

That said, to me liberty is paramount in all political discussion. Unity is secondary -- and a far second at that. In this, I think you and I simply have different, and irreconcilable, priorities. To me, the proper point of law is to protect and preserve individual liberty -- including property rights, political rights, rights in the body -- not to produce unity. In fact, unity only has value insofar as it is conducive to rights.

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Post by Beathan »

As a follow up on my last post, I would like to float a proposal on a signficant revision of our government structure.

I would abolish the executive as currently constituted. I would then establish separate executives for each sim. The executive of CN would be the Praetor; the executive of NF would be the Chancellor. Each sim executive would be a member of the RA. The remaining seats of the RA would be elected under the usual election scheme.

Then, the federal executive would be constituted from the RA, with the RA electing one of its members to serve as Prime Minister, who would be chief executive of the entire CDS.

This would preserve the executive, while unifying it with the RA -- which has advantages not enjoyed in the US but familiar in Europe. It would also accomplish local empowerment (through local executives and local representation on the RA) without producing separatism or endangering overall unity (because a majority of the seats on the RA would be elected in at-large elections). Finally, it would accomplish all these things without increasing complexity by adding a separate branch of the legislature. (Indeed, by abandoning a truly separate executive on the national level, it would actually simplify the governmental structure.)

This proposal is not unlike several suggested in different places in these forums. Therefore, while indicating a revision, I don't think it is outside the current debate. However, I am mindful that I wasn't hear during the Ulrika era and I don't know how government worked or did not work during that time. Hopefully, I am not floating ideas that have already been tried and found wanting.

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DCS System of Governance

Post by michelmanen »

A lot of complex and interrelated issues are being raised here: culture and governance, identity and territoriality, structure of government and rights.... It feels rather like being in the Minotaur's Palace without Ariadne's thread...

As stated in another forum thread, I believe that all our communities must be brought together by a vision that goes beyond our system of governance. I tried to articulate such a vision as follows: "...fundamentally, ours must be a cohesive, transcendent vision of architecturally outstading spaces fostering the development of creative and innovative activities in the spheres of governance, commerce, the arts and spirituality, manifested practically through diverse communities in time and space which stand out as exemplary historical manifestations of this vision."

Whilst others may or may not agree with this statement, unless we all DO agree on a particular common vision, the various threads of the debate being conducted here will take us nowhere (which makes, presumably, for a very happy Minotaur...)

I think that one of the most important, of not primary purpose of an expanding, multi-themed CDS is to model how active citizen participation might look like in various cultural contexts across time and space, and how radically different systems of governance can be brought toghether for common ends. Most importantly, ours is not to replicate tired RL models upholding a congruence between state, nation and territory, or functioning on the increassingly useless spectrum going from a (classical) unitary Westiminster model of government to that of a federal state or federation. The purpose of CDS is I think, exactly that of applying some serious glasnost and perestroika to our anachronistic concepts of govenance in RL and devise new models of govenance capable of accomodating both unity AND diversity, territoriality AND non-territoriality, individual AND group rights... In doing so, we will step way from the false dychotomies inherent in any conception of governance based on models developed for territorially-defined, sovereign nation-states and develop novel structures of governance re-forming its various elements in new and creative ways more adequate for our purposes and, dare I say, pointing towards a possible re-formation of RL structures of governance which are utterly archaic and no longer by ant measure adequate four our XXIst Century world. But that is another story (..more like The 12 Tasks of Hercules...).

So, in more practical terms, I suggest we attempt to develop a "polycratic" system of governance, ie a system with multiple centers of power, based on two primary rules:

1. absolute inclusion; and
2. deep diversity.

This would imply a complex notion of citizenship, capable of acomodating CDS-wide individual rights, with non-territorially-based cultural (group) rights and territorially-based (local sim) rights. Thus, one may well be a "Roman" living in Neufreistadt, participating in the town's local governance (terrirotial level of govenance) yet partaking in the cultural activities of Romans (centered in Colonia Nova, but living throught CDS -non-territorial level of governance), whilst at the same time sharing in common with all CDS inhabitants certain -dare I say- universal rights and freedoms -"global level of governance) .

Two key principles of governance of such asystem would be that:

1. all functions of goverance would be allocated to the level at which the problems and issues underlying it can be resolved most efficiently and effectively -for example, legal issues affecting all CDS members would belong at the CDS level of governance, whilst local issues affecting only residents of Colonia Nova would be dealt with by the Roman Senate. In passing, this example illustrates my belief thst each sim should adopt its culturally-appropriate system a government: a Senate in Rome (two consuls, maybe, rather than a Princeps or emperor?!) a Chancellor-led assembly in Neufreistadt, a shura in a (possibly) future al-Andalus headed by a caliph, each trying to combine its unique historico-cultural characteristics with universal principles of active citizen participation.

So the governance corrolary to our complex nation entails a multi-level system of govenance, based on both territorial and non-territorial levels, gravitating around a common, global core which holds our universe together. This entails a fundamental, paradigmatic shift in our conception of governance; namely from a Newtonian-based "billiard table" model to an "atomic" conceptualisation where individual, autonomous electrons gravitate at different levels around a common nucleus and constitute a coherent atom with its own unique properties.

So where does this bring us in terms of our project. I would suggest as follows:

1. A "local", territorial level of goverment, for each individal sim, mirroring each sim's historical reality. All individuals residing in that sim would participate, indepentently of each individual's cultural identity (for ex., a Novan owning land in Neufreistadt is ipso facto entitled to participate in the governance of the sim);

2. A "cultural", non-territorial level of goverment, for each individual "culture", where all "Romans", living throughout CDS, could come together to decide issues affecting their socio-cultural identity. Thus, if we have more than one sim based on Roman models, all Romans living in these sims PLUS all Romans living in other, differently-themed sims, could participate;

3. A "global", CDS-wide level of government, where issues common to all individual citizens, all cultures, and all sims, can be debated and decided.

If we were to agree, as a whole, on the basic principles and conceptual outline (or something similar) mapped out above, we would then have to discuss how to "institutionalise" each level of governance. The local / territorial level is, I think, quite clear; the non-territorial / cultural level should be left open for each group to decide; the more difficult one is the global / CDS level. We would need to combine here representation by population (each sim would elect a number of representatives based on their overall population) with group representation (each socio-cultural group would elect an equal number of representatives).

Does this necessarily imply a bi-cameral level of govenance with a Chamber of Nations and Representative Assembly? Possibly, but not necessarily. A unicameral system could be envisaged just as well, provided wew can function on Habermasian principles of deliberative democracy where the best argument wins on its merits, rather than on party-political structures of having a majority imposing its will on the minority. But this remains an open debate. Personally, I think a modified unicameral parliamentarian system would be far more effective than a US-style bicameral one where the executive branch is entirely separate from the legislative branch and checks and balances lead too stagnation and pork-barrel politics.

Inasfar as the judiciary is concerned, mediation and arbitration structures should be alloted to both the local and cultural levels of government, which can be structured by its members in accordance with their historical-cultural circumstances (for example, islamic law, roman law and "bavarian" legal principles could be applied -always, of course, adapted to fundamental principles of equality, fairness, rule of law, and active citizen participation). If insufficient to resolve disputes at their own levels, matters could be taken to the DCS-wide judiciary applicable to all individuals, cultures, and sims, which Ashcroft in particular has been working hard to develop. The incentive here is, of course, for disputes to be resolved at the mediation / arbitration level in accordance with specific historico-cultural rules and avoid more formal and "universal" procedures focusing primarily on litigants as individuals rather than as members of a historico-cultural group. This being said, it is from the interaction between historico-culturally based systems of mediation and arbitration and universal, individual rights-based DDS-wide juridical system that a new, more flexible conceptualisation and practice of justice will develop, truly representative of our fundamental principles of absolute inclusion and deep diversity.

The implications that the elaboration of such a polycratic system of governance and justice in 2L would have for how we think of governance in the 21st Century RL are, I dare say, quite staggering...

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Re: DCS System of Governance

Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="michelmanen":1iwykcx1]2. A "cultural", non-territorial level of goverment, for each individual "culture", where all "Romans", living throughout CDS, could come together to decide issues affecting their socio-cultural identity. Thus, if we have more than one sim based on Roman models, all Romans living in these sims PLUS all Romans living in other, differently-themed sims, could participate;[/quote:1iwykcx1]

How exactly would this work, in terms of institutional design and the precise legal rules that would operate within it? Or do you envisage this as non-governmental?

[quote:1iwykcx1]Inasfar as the judiciary is concerned, mediation and arbitration structures should be alloted to both the local and cultural levels of government, which can be structured by its members in accordance with their historical-cultural circumstances (for example, islamic law, roman law and "bavarian" legal principles could be applied -always, of course, adapted to fundamental principles of equality, fairness, rule of law, and active citizen participation). If insufficient to resolve disputes at their own levels, matters could be taken to the DCS-wide judiciary applicable to all individuals, cultures, and sims, which Ashcroft in particular has been working hard to develop.[/quote:1iwykcx1]

Are you suggesting here that mediation and arbitration should be forced on parties who would rather litigate straight away, or do you envisage both to be voluntary? Any sort of enforced submission to a mechanism of dispute resolution other than the courts is either a denial of the right to access the courts, an unnecessary and overly cumbersome hurdle for litigants, or both. Mediation only has any hope of working between parties who are willing to mediate from the outset, and have volunteered to do so. Arbitration is an unnecessary duplication of the court structure unless it is inherently more cost-effective (some forms of commercial arbitration can be far cheaper than using the courts: that will not, of course, be the case in our jurisdiction).

As things stand at present, the Public Judiciary Scrutiny Panel has the power to procure or provide alternative dispute resolution services. Nobody has the power to force parties to submit to alternative dispute resolution if they do not want, and that is the way that it should be.

[quote:1iwykcx1]The incentive here is, of course, for disputes to be resolved at the mediation / arbitration level in accordance with specific historico-cultural rules and avoid more formal and "universal" procedures focusing primarily on litigants as individuals rather than as members of a historico-cultural group.[/quote:1iwykcx1]

Why do you think that this is a good idea? Why should litigants not be viewed as individuals, rather than mere members of a group? It would greatly restrict individual freedom of action, and the incentive for people to join us as citizens if people had to be subject to a specific, historical culture, rather than be part of our own, new emerging culture.

Really, I think that the point of the CDS is not to emulate the culture and government of lots of historical nations, but for us to make our own, new, culture and government from scratch, carving out new principles and ideas, letting our own, unique, international, virtual culture develop naturally, rather than forcing one of a range of historical cultures upon our citizens. Our aesthetic themes are historical, but that does not mean that our cultural norms, or legal and governmental systems should be.

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Re: CDS System of Governance

Post by Diderot Mirabeau »

[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":153rukab]Really, I think that the point of the CDS is not to emulate the culture and government of lots of historical nations, but for us to make our own, new, culture and government from scratch, carving out new principles and ideas, letting our own, unique, international, virtual culture develop naturally, rather than forcing one of a range of historical cultures upon our citizens. Our aesthetic themes are historical, but that does not mean that our cultural norms, or legal and governmental systems should be.[/quote:153rukab]
I have to say I agree with this stance. My experience with CDS so far has been that it is more about developing a virtual community based on democratic governance than on historical enactment or roleplaying. Our democratic aspirations are not compatible with cultural norms of either Medieval Germans, Romans or citizens of the caliphat vis-a-vis the earlier discussion about slavery.

There seems to be a movement toward utilising the concept of "sim culture" to justify local governance. As I have earlier posted I have yet to see any distinct culture develop between the two sims and I think it would be more prudent to pursue initiatives to facilitate such formation of culture rather than just putting it in words. The culture I've experienced so far in the CDS has been one based on values such as diversity, constructive cooperation, commitment and not the least internationalism. I'd like it to stay that way rather than delving into some re-enactment of suppressive cultures of the past.

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Re: CDS System of Governance

Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Diderot Mirabeau":nhbr2hew]There seems to be a movement toward utilising the concept of "sim culture" to justify local governance. As I have earlier posted I have yet to see any distinct culture develop between the two sims and I think it would be more prudent to pursue initiatives to facilitate such formation of culture rather than just putting it in words. The culture I've experienced so far in the CDS has been one based on values such as diversity, constructive cooperation, commitment and not the least internationalism. I'd like it to stay that way rather than delving into some re-enactment of suppressive cultures of the past.[/quote:nhbr2hew]

Yes. I am very sceptical of any suggestion that our project can create, whether we want it to or not, lots of little distinctive and coherent cultures that fit nicely to the boundaries of our geographical sims, based on the aesthetic themes that we prescribe in those sims to give them visual coherence. For as long as we expand by buying islands, building on them, and then renting out bits of them, retaining some significant public space, I very, very much doubt that the culture of any two sims as a whole will be significantly more different than the culture of any given two people in any one sim. If we were only ever to expand this way, I doubt that we would ever need local government unless and until we became truly vast, such that it was needed for administrative convenience.

However, if we are to have franchulates, and encourage pre-existing groups of people to join us on a sim or part of a sim dedicated to their own ends, there will need to be a way of giving such groups some degree of autonomy and control over the territory that they acquire as a franchulate, or else there is not likely to be sufficient incentive for such groups to enfranchulate with us in the first place. Such control ought not be something that radically alters or interferes with our central government structure, or substantially curtails the [i:nhbr2hew]de jure[/i:nhbr2hew] powers of our government to govern effectively [i:nhbr2hew]all[/i:nhbr2hew] CDS territory, but it should provide for local executive action, particularly in respect of planning, local enforcement of planning laws, and local bylaws to govern behaviour in ways specific to the particular group (an example that I have given before is that if a group of Esperanto speakers wished to have a franchulate, a local bylaw might require people to speak in Esperanto in all but defined circumstances). That way, the structural integrity of the CDS is preserved, but groups who wish to join us as franchulates retain sufficient autonomy to individual groups who want to join us to make it worth their while doing so.

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Governance

Post by michelmanen »

"...some re-enactment of suppressive cultures of the past" ?
"...lots of little distinctive and coherent cultures that fit nicely to the boundaries of our geographical sims?"?

Wow! If this is what you two consider to be the core of my argument, I will keep my own counsel from now ownwards.....

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Post by Beathan »

Michelmanen wrote [quote:3szs2qbz]"...some re-enactment of suppressive cultures of the past" ?
"...lots of little distinctive and coherent cultures that fit nicely to the boundaries of our geographical sims?"?

Wow! If this is what you two consider to be the core of my argument, I will keep my own counsel from now ownwards.....[/quote:3szs2qbz]

Don't. Debate gets quite rough and tumble here, especially when Ashcroft, Diderot, and I are involved. Ideas thrive in open air, and actually benefit from bruising.

Personally, I think that you are onto something. I have a doubt about how practical a complicated, three-level government of the kind you are describing would be given our size. I think your proposal has real merit, but I am not sure that we have the talent and time to pull it off.

Therefore, I would rather see a scaled-down and simplied version. However, I really think that the three levels of interaction and institutions you describe are real and deserve respect and recognition. That said, I think we should focus our effort and talent on the Federal level -- as informed by the local and cultural levels -- while simultaneously providing local control over local concerns.

To this end, I previously proposed having executives (single offices) for each locale (each Sim), and having those officials also serve in a representative capacity on the Federal level. We could do the same with cultures if cultures emerge as viable, coherent institutions in the CDS (although the jury is still out on that one).

But, the essential point I want to make is that you, Michelmanen, have broadened and deepened the debate. Don't let the bastards, including me, get you down.

Beathan

Last edited by Beathan on Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Governance

Post by Aliasi Stonebender »

[quote="michelmanen":341w0wp5]"...some re-enactment of suppressive cultures of the past" ?
"...lots of little distinctive and coherent cultures that fit nicely to the boundaries of our geographical sims?"?

Wow! If this is what you two consider to be the core of my argument, I will keep my own counsel from now ownwards.....[/quote:341w0wp5]

We've never been about playing nice in the debate club here, I'm afraid. ;)

That said, I think (for the most part) we're all good about being impassioned in the defense or advancement of an idea, without necessarily impugning the person behind them. It's all a great big wacky experiment, after all!

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Re: Governance

Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="michelmanen":383gbg3g]"...lots of little distinctive and coherent cultures that fit nicely to the boundaries of our geographical sims?"?

Wow! If this is what you two consider to be the core of my argument, I will keep my own counsel from now ownwards.....[/quote:383gbg3g]

Please note that I was not referring specifically to your suggestion when I wrote the above: a number of people have suggested that individual geographical sims will have their own cultures, and it was to that that I was refering. I realise that your idea is slightly different, involving some sort of notion of a deliniated set of distinct cultures with their own governmental (?) institutions that are not geographically specific; I was somewhat unclear on how that would work, exactly, so I asked you questions in response to your post as to how it would work. I was not intending to suggest that you, in particular, were imagining that lots of distinct coherent cultures would emerge fitting geographical boundaries.

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Post by Ranma Tardis »

I would vote in the poll but disagree with all three answers.
With the CDS still only consisting of two Sims direct democratic rule is possible and desirable. I do not think that electing 5 members of a Representative Assembly out of a population of 50 or so makes a better government.
At this time debate is limited to a few to accommodate the few.
In this system non-faction members do not have representation. Their vote is without meaning. They can only vote for a faction but not the person.
There is one exception to this rule. Pelanor Eldrich has been trying to represent my beliefs to some extent.
I can see no easy solution to the basic structure problems of the CDS.

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