Moderator: SC Moderators
The next General Meeting of the CSDF will be on [b:xo4jru3u]Friday 17 Nov at 3pm.[/b:xo4jru3u] **Please note new day of the week**.
Location: [b:xo4jru3u]The Red House[/b:xo4jru3u] on the Lowland Road, Neufreistadt.
Please add suggested agenda items to this thread.
This is an open meeting so all are welcome to attend
[color=Black:1mf32tte][i:1mf32tte]Meeting on 2006-11-17[/i:1mf32tte][/color:1mf32tte]
[color=Sienna:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Those present[/b:1mf32tte]: [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][i:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn is in the chair.[/i:1mf32tte][/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: ahahah[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][i:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:1mf32tte][/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][i:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn waits patiently while she does some scripting...[/i:1mf32tte][/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: Oh![/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: I was already "signed in"[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: wait, who is chairing now?[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: ah Moon[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: is that SO important?![/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: well, no[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: so it's you? 
[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: anyway[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: no agenda for today[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: but[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: we have three proposals to discuss[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: and we can start brushing a little at campaign[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: Yes.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: Jon, guild?[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: Ok.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Yes.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: btw, is it in leg agenda?[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Well, the reaction I am getting from the 'bill' part is very positive[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: the only question from the DPU has to do with the amendment section. They would like to retain the old guild.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: .. but not the "amendment" part?[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: Ah yes.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: but hmm[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: why?[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: *with* the financial veto and the impeachment powers?[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: When I asked why, Pel said it was because they are conservative.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: That's not an argument 
[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: ah, a logical stand [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: yes, lol[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: No, its rather strange.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: we'll "ashcroft" them into submission![/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: well, tehy may be preparing already for campaign also[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: as if they were taking the word 'conservitive' only in the most basic sense..[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: and trying not to strange their electorate[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: ("to ashcroft" = to argue with stubborn logic until the other party accepts defeat and leaves the field)[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Well, there were two aspects of the current guild it seems they would like to preserve.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: One is the veto over the buedget.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][i:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant listens[/i:1mf32tte][/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: but didn't a suggestion for an Auditor hang around?[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: The other is the ability to grant credentials to builder / designers and others with a professional (non-legal) role.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: yes, but our proposal does that[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: also, it does more than what is stablished at the moment[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: since it charters the way to do that[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: instead of leaving it in a limbo of good intentions[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Yes, though I got the impression that they would like both powers to remain with Sudane in particular.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: What...[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: I am not impressed with this approach.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: No no[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: I fully trust Sudane, that goes without saying,[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: but such important powers[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: yes![/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: cannot be tied to a *person*[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: and if that person changes roles,[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: the powers go with her.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: exactly, always our stand[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: I mean,[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: i mean, remember the discussion on exec[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: we tried very much (and managed it ) that there was a clear definition of the *functions*, not of the *role*[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: in that case, I'd make a strong point for a Constitutional Monarchy ? keeping those powers on the Monarch, and also providing a common rallying point to make a strong political union, beyond the crazy model that might be proposed by the DPU and Aliasi[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: 
[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: Indeed[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: and *person* instead of *role* is even worse[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: And the Treasurer is under the Chancellor,[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: which in turn is under the RA[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: brb, soup[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: I certainly cannot imagine they want to retain the current guild for its organization, which is a bit strange.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: so hmm we can't have these powers under the RA![/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: However, they did have one point worth considering.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: Ok...[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: That is they wanted the audit to be separate from both the executive and the SC>[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Now, this may have something to do with Claude's current spat with the SC, I cannot say.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: Ah. At least that![/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: whew[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: but why not the Sc?[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: ah[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: hmmm[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: BUT[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: well, every time the SC opens its collective mouth,[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: Claude gets furious[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: as we pointed out[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: "A good SC is a silent SC" [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: the proposed procedure would divide the very important issue of budget between tthe 3 powers[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: thus effectively assuring checks and balances[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: as you pointed out gwyn[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Yes, so they seem to be asking for a fourth branch.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: a check remaining with the treasurer that is part of the executive which proposes teh budget...[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: but[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][i:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant gets her political hat on[/i:1mf32tte][/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: as a matter of fact[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Now, it seems to me, this this is exactly the opposite of a direction that Ali and co would like.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: most systems have a role, as gwyn pointed out, that holds teh veto[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: but that role is generally[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: of teh monarch or of teh president of republic[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: hehe[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: well we could have the equivalent of the Fed,[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: independent of the RA[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: hmmm, is this the guildmeister?[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: or the Chancellor[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: ah, but that was our suggestion![/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: Yes [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: that there would be an exchequer court, so to say[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: yes![/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: so i really don't see why they object[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: A comment, Jon...[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Actually the one thing that I think would keep us from getting the new guild going would be to continue the old with the idea it would have a say over who is credentialed by the new guild.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: at this point, we should "demand" for consistency in their argumentation...[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: i mean, apart from the unargumentative argument of 'that's cos we'r conservatives'[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: ... since we DO have a coherent system, and one that is arguable and defensable logically.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: If they don't like OUR model,[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Yes, I do agree with Moon.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: and the current one clearly does not address all the issues,[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: they need to strive for a coherent approach as well.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Yes, I agree with both of you.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Pel has not yet posted his counter-bill I think.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: haven't yet read the agenda for tomorrow, which actually hasn't been closed yet[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: but anyway[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: we're good on this, i think[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: So, let me mention my issue with the credential thing.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: i mean we do have a solid counter-argument[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: ok[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: They are depending on Sudane being GM forever. BUT, if they turn the AC into a branch with a primary responsibility for auditing, there is litle chance that the next GM will be a skilled designer, or a good teacher of design.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Most likley it will go to someone who is skilled with auditing and business management.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: It seems to me, to ask that person to say yes or no on designers and builders is prolematic[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: Sorry Jon. A moment of humour: http://gwynethllewelyn.net/article114vi ... omment-628[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: I asked Pel who could fill both roles, and he knew of no one.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: opens the page [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: yes[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: LOL![/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: LOL[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: brilliant![/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Quite a few Gwyn clones, and a few of someone else?[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: well, jon, it is a concern indeed[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: haha[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: i think they should be confrontated with it[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Actually the 'crisis' illiustrates something interesting about our concept of property. That it is an abstraction of our understanding how how physical commodities behave. And of course information dosent always follow those rules.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: indeed[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: you see[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: this happens because people don't really understand technology[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: from teh median user pov, the content appears 'magically' on their screens[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: ok...[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: anything more on teh guild?[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: yes, back to work [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: No, that is all I have to say. I think I need to compose a post on it, but I will not get to that until this weekend.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: but is it for leg discussion already, btw?[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: We will see if the guild is high enough on the agenda to be up for discussion.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: Ok.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: leg=legislative[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Yes, it is posted there and I gave Claude the notecards.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: nods, ok [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: you see this week i really didn't have the time to even TYPE the url of the forums [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: *sigh*[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: (in SL and RL)[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: ok... committees[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: you must still have the notecard from last session[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: yes[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: listens[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: that's good, because i don't [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][i:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant laughs[/i:1mf32tte][/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: let me open my doc[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: what would you like to add to this?[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: Hm[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: I wish I had gotten time for writing coherent suggestions...[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: ... but I didn' [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: well... now? [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: either for the committees nor for the local representativity[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: got it Jon [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: Now, I'm afraid I have to deal with a prototype for a customer that has to be finished by tomorrow, lol[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: hmmm, ok[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: Jon, committees[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: nods and smiles at Gwyn[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: listens[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: lol, i want to lsten to you![/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: haha yes.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Me?[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: laughs[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: yes, what would you liek to add to this draft?[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][i:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn wants to listen to Jon as well since she's heard Moon's mumblings on committees often enough 
[/i:1mf32tte][/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: i really don't think it is suitable for presentation yet[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: actually, neither of them is[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: Well Moon[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: honestly speaking,[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: I've read much worse from Claude [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: lol[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Well, I know you had a later draft in email. Let me take a look at that.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: only two light mods[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Acutally I am not sure how DPU will react. But this is worth doing.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: i think it is imporatnt to launch the concept of citizens' assocaitaions[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: associations*[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Perhaps also add that RA meetings will occur once a month unless there is pressing business.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: yes.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: hmmm, on which?[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: I would keep the two concepts a bit separate.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: that would be an encouraging point ? less meetings, but more productive meetings[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: wait wait wait[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: Moon, who is on the SPC from the RA?[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: hich are we dicussing here?[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: committees??[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: which*[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: hmmm[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: Me and Jon in building wg[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Really the commttees are extending how the RA does it's business. That is focusing on legislative issues. While citizen's orgs can focus on any number of things.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: claude in bureau wg[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: pel in finantial?[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: Ok ? I just wanted to see if we got most of teh RA members familiar with the way the SPC worked so well.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: Ok[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: so almost everybody really.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: would have to check it out... as the other groups besides building and promotion have finished their tasks much sooner, and i have a recognisedly bad memory... [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Yes, though really Moon and myself were most active.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: Yes.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: Still, they saw the results.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Yes, they did![/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: i think justice was in bureau... that wuld make all RA[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: Ok[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: Well, the point was only to have this argument:[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: "we were all on the SPC and saw how great it worked"[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: yes[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: *worked out[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: i think also[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: "and we would like to have the committees to work with the RA as well as the SPC worked with the workgroups"[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: that is imporatnt to point out that the RA can be helped in leg discussion[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: by expert opinion, and by hmmm popular consult[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][i:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn always wonders why Moon is so keen at discussing legs... [/i:1mf32tte][/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: which then is made through the committees[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: and that can be implemented NOW[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: laughs[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: yes[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: I think it is a great idea.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: while referenda is really a dragging discussion[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Well, last time I proposed we look at this instead of referenda.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: yes, and i do agree[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: as a way to encorrage participation.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: yes[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: yup[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: also, really productive discussion[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: ok, so what do you propose that we do?[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Lets propose it and see what happens.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: ok[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: is english ok?[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: The only thing I have to ask at this point...[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Its hard to come up with a stategy until we know how they will react.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: listens to Gwyn[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: what is your feeling.... this is something that *never* was discussed on the forums... will they think it's "too great a change" and postpone to the next week?[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: well, no one can really oppose civil society participation, can they? [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: hehe Moon ? yes, good point![/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: or expert counselling, come to that [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: well, we can find out. Certanly it is a lot less of a change than referenda.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: Definitely![/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: Much more peaceful as well...[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: ... although, well, I haven't really thought about *any* arguments against it.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: And this means that if any strong arguments against it pop up,[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: they will be utter surprises.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: i think it possibly is badly written[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: ah well, i am sure this will be a further argument to the Wicked RA Plot on Holding Power[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Well, I will look at the language early tomorrow. I think we have missed the deadline, unless you want to try to get it on to the agenda tonight.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: hmmm, it's too late for you to have a look at it today, i think[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Yes, well, that RA is always plotting something [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: Ah yes[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: That's the problem with our "late Friday" meetings.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: yes[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Yes, it is an issue.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: well, since is this is such a novel proposal, i think is best to discuss it a bit more, so let's post it tomorrow[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: Local Representativity?[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: Thoughts?[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: Ok.... [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: The only issue that will really pop up[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: is the question about parties vs. "citizen's associations"[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: the rest, well,[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: either the DPU refuses even to discuss it[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: oh, do you think?[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: or they'll see it as a compromise[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: I like the local rep proposal very much.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: I love it, Jon[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: i think everyone is going to fight it[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: As I told Moon,[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: we shouldn't be discussing other people's insane suggestions,[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: when we have one since the very beginning[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: in our campaign programme[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: i do agree with Gwyn[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: and this should be made clear tomorrow [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: yes, I agree.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: ie. we're not simply throwing something on the table to be different,[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: we must really take the lead, as we're teh ones holding the coherent position [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: fully coherent, you know what i mean[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: we're fullfilling the agreement with the people that cast a vote on the CSDF: we always had this proposal, we're bringing it up for discussion *now* because it's the right time.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: That's exactly it, Moon[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: yes. Though rationality only has limited use in politics [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: You can do political arguing [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: hehe[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: well yes, Jon [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: lol[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: that always make me think of getting a fish and start arguing [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: The answer to "why only suggesting it now?" is answered with: "this is the right time. The CSDF always times their proposals according to their nine-point programme"[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: fish?[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: Asterix reference, Jon [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: ah, Asterix reference [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Ah[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: they always started fights on their village with a fish Usually a not-so-fresh one[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: maybe i shoul open a fishmonger's shop in CN...[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: lol Moonie![/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: Well, we have really dealt with issues one by one almost in the order of the program. It surprised me[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: yes[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: but we hmmm[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: haha yes ? positively so![/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: well, we DO have a stand, and a proposal[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Jon Seattle[/b:1mf32tte]: yes, we do.[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: "oooh we're PSYCHIC..."[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: and they make sense, and are feasible now[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: ideological parties rule![/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: lol[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: will all this be logged on the transcript???[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: of coruse gwyn [/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: and lol, yes![/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][i:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn ducks and hides[/i:1mf32tte][/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: anyway[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: citizens'[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Moon Adamant[/b:1mf32tte]: associations[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1mf32tte][b:1mf32tte]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1mf32tte]: /think-stop[/color:1mf32tte]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Jon Seattle[/b:u0wc2rng]: laughs[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: oops[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: i will present my pov, and gwyn doesn't agree and can present hers[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: i think hmmm[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: Oh well[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: I don't disagree totally[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: well, really, civil society means 'unpolitized society'[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: and i think it is important[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: that people understand[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Jon Seattle[/b:u0wc2rng]: listens[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: that ALL people can have a word and a vote through association[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: it's just that I think that the notion that "we aren't calling regional parties 'regional parties' because of the bad association with the name party" a weak argument, that's all[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: regardless of political militancy[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: also, the constitution would change dramatically, and weaken the whole concept of factions[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: so?[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: although, in contrast, empower citizens[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][i:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant rises the constitutional iconoclast falg[/i:u0wc2rng][/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: flag*[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: hehe[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: factions would still have a place[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: namely[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Jon Seattle[/b:u0wc2rng]: Its very interesting -- I am thinking of the contrast between US and european roles for voluntary associations.[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: my thoughts run in teh sense that these citizens' assoc for electing a local rep have a definite time span[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: that is, they extinguish themselves after election[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: if they don't... well, they become factions[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Jon Seattle[/b:u0wc2rng]: Hmmm... human organizations don't always do that.[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: which can have - or not - a political maifesto[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Jon Seattle[/b:u0wc2rng]: Well, let me ask a question.[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Jon Seattle[/b:u0wc2rng]: It seems to me I could imagine a faction tied to a sim region.[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Jon Seattle[/b:u0wc2rng]: The problem that would bring is mainly that a person belongs to only one faction.[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: ah yes, but that has been discussed already[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Jon Seattle[/b:u0wc2rng]: If, for example, there is a CN-nationalist faction[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: Hmm...[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Jon Seattle[/b:u0wc2rng]: then you could not also join the DPU or CSDF.[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: Hm[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: and then we noted that the const should really say that a person can only run to election through ONE faction[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Jon Seattle[/b:u0wc2rng]: In a sense, are you not in effect introducting two kinds of factions.[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: So, if these are NOT factions,[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: yes well that was the argument I had with Moon as well[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: and what if we looked at the question from another angle?[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: factions are citizen's associations also[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Jon Seattle[/b:u0wc2rng]: listens[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: they just have a political manifesto[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: you see what i mean?[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: Well, they have a bit more, constitutionally speaking.[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: but then it is the constitution making a discrimination between two types of association[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: Not right now, Moon,[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: the concept of association does not exist in the constitution right now[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: it's just an universal human right.[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: well, it exists de facto as it defends the right to association[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Jon Seattle[/b:u0wc2rng]: I am just playing with the idea of having regional and political factions to go with the regional and polticial elections.[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: mm hmm Jon[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: although the way I see it,[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: all current national factions will very likely present candidates for the regional elections as well[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: unless they have become insane lately[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: most possibly[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: however,[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Jon Seattle[/b:u0wc2rng]: I can't say if they have become insane,[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: Moon's suggestion will allow *new* groups to participate in the regional elections as well[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Jon Seattle[/b:u0wc2rng]: but it is a good point.[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: My issue comes from another angle.[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: Like you said ? people belonging to both a faction and a regional association,[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: and being a candidate for both [/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: I mean, a regional candidate, but in two lists, one faction list, one association list[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: or hmm[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: how would this tie in into things like the Judges who very likely will be forbidden to participate in factions (if Ashcroft has his saying)[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Jon Seattle[/b:u0wc2rng]: But what if we kept the political factions from proposing candidates in the regional elections. Only regional factions could. This is sounding complex, but it has a certain appeal.[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: but will be able to campaign on regional elections? (although, if they DO get elected, they would not be able to be members of the RA!)[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: aaah[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: well Jon[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: this would hardly work[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: our first step in CSDF[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: would be to create the Citizen's Social Democratic Association of Neufreistadt[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: and the Citizens' Social Democratic Association of Colonia Nova[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: [/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Jon Seattle[/b:u0wc2rng]: yes. And loose control of some? [/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: So there is no point there to "forbid" this explicitly. There will always be workarounds.[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Jon Seattle[/b:u0wc2rng]: Well, I am certain I don't know.[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: hmmm[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: but surely ash can't ask judges to abandon one of their fundamental righst - free association[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: hehe yes, which will confuse things further on the regional level [/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: You see, Moon, why I was reluctant in "empowering associations"?[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: In essence,[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: this would mean creating two types of factions[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: but[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: let's think into the future[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: do you prefer then that citizens run independently?[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: NO![/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: it can be done...[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: Only factions should be able to run for the RA hehe[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: I mean...[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: Imagine we have 12 sims[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: and a "regional faction" with splitter groups[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: among 3 of those sims,[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Jon Seattle[/b:u0wc2rng]: Well, we could introduce the concept of a "local" for each faction.[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: but they all congregate on a "federation of associations"[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: to coordinate their efforts to get 3 members elected for the RA[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: in essence[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: these would be just like factions,[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: but with a very important difference:[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: they would be exempt of all the limitations faction members currently have[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Jon Seattle[/b:u0wc2rng]: Gwyn, so would it be best in your view, to just have faction-based elections in regional contests?[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: i see[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: Yes.[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Jon Seattle[/b:u0wc2rng]: I could see that.[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: well, coud factions have independents in their lists?[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: Sure, why not, Moon?[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: hmmm[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: how wuld you tell an independent from a faction member[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: i mean, if faction memebers have limitations...[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: you could have factions emptying and ex-members regularly running as 'independents'[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: Oh no[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: once you run as an independent,[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: you're subject to the same rules![/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: You're just not affiliated with the party's ideology or programme...[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][i:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant feels a bit dizzy[/i:u0wc2rng][/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Jon Seattle[/b:u0wc2rng]: Are you okay?[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: a bit confused with discussion, lol[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: well, it is obvious that this is not ready yet for presentation[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: so shall we wrap the discussion and proceed in mail?[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Jon Seattle[/b:u0wc2rng]: We can work on it a bit in any case.[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: please [/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Jon Seattle[/b:u0wc2rng]: okay [/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant[/b:u0wc2rng]: ok, adjourned then[/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:u0wc2rng][b:u0wc2rng]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:u0wc2rng]: yay![/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=DarkGreen:u0wc2rng][i:u0wc2rng]Moon Adamant waves at pat [/i:u0wc2rng][/color:u0wc2rng]
[color=Navy:u0wc2rng][i:u0wc2rng]The meeting closed at 16:43 Linden time.[/i:u0wc2rng][/color:u0wc2rng]