Is it time to start planning again?

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Diderot Mirabeau
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Hoy many should finance the higher tier payment for sim #3?

Post by Diderot Mirabeau »

Assuming that we will have to pay USD 295 in monthly maintenance of the new sim as opposed to USD 195 for the ones on which we already sit it occurs to me that at some point we will need to answer the following question:

Shall we leave it up to the residents of the third sim to pay the increased land fees for living in their new sim or should the community shoulder the burden and agree for a collective hike in everyone's land fees, which will be smaller but nevertheless an increase?

This question seems to me to be potentially very contentious and with the potential for creating division in our society to the point of some sim residents wanting to claim autonomy for their sim.

It would be interesting to have some calculations performed to show how much of an increase we are actually talking about if every citizen of the CDS will be shouldering the increase collectively so as to be able to assess the significance of the potential for this question to cause disenfranchisement.

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Post by Claude Desmoulins »

The problem with distributing the cost CDS wide is that it will cause a CDS wide land fee increase every time we add a sim. If expansion becomes a regular event, this could mean a lot of increases.

We already have differential pricing. I ran some quick calculations and identify seven different land fee rates:

Zone US cents per m2 per month

NFS Valley .57
NFS City .77
NFS Platz 1.02
CN City .91
CN Stalls .97
CN Cardo/Less/skybox .84
CN Residential .70

Ranma Tardis

Post by Ranma Tardis »

The costs should be spread out among the residents unless there is a real benefit to being on a “new” server.
I see a movement to make completely unrelated sim to the theme of Colonia Nova or Neufreistadt.
I will not support a new theme.
Have supported things in the past (to be a “team” player) but will not continue to do so.
I have been outvoted in both my former faction and RA almost 100 percent of the time.
I would like to see some consensus building among the citizens instead of the majority forcing itself upon the minority and calling it Democracy. Will the majority always force the minority out? Aliasi I am nobody’s slave and that includes the majority!

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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

I agree that the cost differential issue needs to be considered as we move towards purchase of our third (and more) sims. We will also need to consider how to make it commercially viable (which might make 'wilderness areas' and void sims prohibitively costly). But while we have the creative juices flowing can we keep the (necessary) discussion of practicalities until later? There are some really good ideas being batted around and it would be a shame to cut the brainstorming short by cutting to the practical obstacles too soon. This might also help to keep everyone on board (see Ranma's post below) while we generate ideas and, hopefully, a consensus.

I'd like us to think about why various proposals might be useful additions to our current two sims. What do we want to add with a third one? I'm pushed for time (at work) so can't go into this in detail now but I think we need to consider how a new sim would complement the other two. We could, perhaps, have a 'master plan' so that one sim is for commerce, another specialises in the arts and culture, a third is based around education etc. We need to avoid making multiple copies of the same model i.e. a commercial centre surrounded by residential lots (N.B. I am not saying this is what CN is! I'm just outlining a concern for the future).

My Native American suggestion was partly in that vein, to have a third sim where the residential situation is very different from the built environments of NFS and CN and where residents could live 'closer to nature' in the virtual greenery. Other ideas could also fulfil this need.

More ideas later when I get the chance to post again! :)

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Post by Beathan »

Eventually, I am planning to purchase a sim for development into a law and justice center -- which will be a commercial tower with first floor commercial space and then courtrooms, mediation rooms, and offices surrounded by low to modest-prim garden space and a statue of Lady Justice or somesuch (maybe on the building, like the Portlandia statue in Portland OR). Hopefully this will attract use by SL and RL dispute resolution groups. This is a project I was planning to fund with my own money, but if the CDS is interested in it, I would be willing to fund it through the CDS by donation.

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Post by Diderot Mirabeau »

[quote="Beathan":1thx4cbo] This is a project I was planning to fund with my own money, but if the CDS is interested in it, I would be willing to fund it through the CDS by donation.[/quote:1thx4cbo]

I support this proposal fully and would very much like representatives of the RA to discuss the conditions further. Before final acceptance however I think some of the economic issues that I raised earlier need to be clarified and a common agreement reached. Furthermore, we need to have a plan in place for attracting people to move into this sim and share the maintenance costs.

Other than that: Thanks Beathan for making such a generous offer to the community. I for my part am truly appreciative of it!

It may also tie in well with the insane amount of resources we've collectively devoted to developing the judiciary.

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Post by Diderot Mirabeau »

[quote="Patroklus Murakami":2ffv2nxg]I agree that the cost differential issue needs to be considered as we move towards purchase of our third (and more) sims. We will also need to consider how to make it commercially viable (which might make 'wilderness areas' and void sims prohibitively costly).[/quote:2ffv2nxg]

Actually I personally would be willing to finance a significant increase in my land fees to be able to get our community surrounded by _four_ carefully landscaped wilderness sims with valleys, forests, waterfalls, coastline, ocean and maybe even desert or wastelands. It is a rare luxury on the mainland to find a place where you have four sims full of beautiful countryside neighbouring your residence. But of course it may be that not everyone thinks like this.

[quote="Patroklus Murakami":2ffv2nxg]But while we have the creative juices flowing can we keep the (necessary) discussion of practicalities until later? There are some really good ideas being batted around and it would be a shame to cut the brainstorming short by cutting to the practical obstacles too soon.[/quote:2ffv2nxg]

Pardon me for bringing it up. I did not consider that it might have the effect of short circuiting the creative discussion. Perhaps such an effect is multiplied from only having one thread to discuss a new sim in. It might be an idea to create an entire forum to the purpose. What does the community feel about that?

I think a third sim with more of an emphasis on the natural / terrain / landscaping aspects of the sim creating the "personality" or "theme" of the sim would be an interesting deviation from our usual recipe of using a pre-built urban concentration to provide a self-evident, acceptable and tangible "enforcement" of thematically related covenant requirements and offering to prospective residents a rather stable and concrete vision of what they get, when they choose to move in with us. Doing the same thing by utilising terrain and landscaping may well be possible.

I am still quite hooked by the idea of doing a sim where the two pre-existing themes merge in a more surreal fashion with the sim partitioned in three bands where the middle one is some sort of valley that is less restrictive than the existing sims and possibly allows for some sort of badlands/sandbox/western/combat interaction - maybe we need to find a word for this or develop the concept further. Whereas the northern and southern bands will be mountaineous plateaus / slopes that bring the old sims together both in terms of height and theme ..

And we'd also need more water than in our existing sims in my opinion. Water is one of the distinguishing features of the mainland that we cannot offer much of. I'd suggest a long stream that winds through the entire sim in a NW - SE diagonal and turning into waterfalls and lakes along the way.

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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Beathan":2a3i5zxh]Eventually, I am planning to purchase a sim for development into a law and justice center -- which will be a commercial tower with first floor commercial space and then courtrooms, mediation rooms, and offices surrounded by low to modest-prim garden space and a statue of Lady Justice or somesuch (maybe on the building, like the Portlandia statue in Portland OR). Hopefully this will attract use by SL and RL dispute resolution groups. This is a project I was planning to fund with my own money, but if the CDS is interested in it, I would be willing to fund it through the CDS by donation.[/quote:2a3i5zxh]

This is an excellent idea! Talk to Pelanor about getting a franchulate: that seems like what you're writing about at the end there.

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Post by Diderot Mirabeau »

[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":1ihx24jp]This is an excellent idea! Talk to Pelanor about getting a franchulate: that seems like what you're writing about at the end there.[/quote:1ihx24jp]

It may be that the sim Beathan is proposing ends up being integrated with the CDS through the "franchulate" method although I am having difficulties seeing the concrete benefits of that apart from the possibility of handing over your land to the CDS in exchange for the benefit of being allowed the use of of the judiciary, which I believe any SL resident has access to already according to wide-ranging jurisdictional competence granted to the judiciary.

Furthermore, I don't see anything in Beathan's proposal explicitly leading to the conclusion that "franchulation" is necessarily the way of integrating the sim into the CDS. There needs to be more discussion before clarifying that. For example, using "franchulation" there would be no integration of the finances of the sim into the overall economy of the CDS, furthermore there would be no guarantee of the CDS being able to make decisions regarding the planning and use of communal spaces in such a sim. I believe issues like these need to be resolved before one can jump to the conclusion that it must be the "franchulation" method that is the ideal way of integrating Beathan's proposal into the CDS.

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Expansion

Post by michelmanen »

I read all comments with great interest and I am excited to see such a diversity of views and opinions regarding our future development. I agee that that all our communities must be brought together by a vision that goes beyond our system of governance.

I believe that, fundamentally, ours must be a cohesive, transcendent vision of architecturally outstading spaces fostering the development of creative and innovative activities in the spheres of governance, commerce, the arts and spirituality, manifested practically through diverse communities in time and space which stand out as exemplary historical manifestations of this vision.

Both Neufreistadt and Colonia Nova conform to this vision and, therefore, have growth and development potential. A third sim that would fit perfectly into this vision and would be particularly timely and, I would even venture to say, path-breaking for future developments in RL, would be "al-Andalus": a sim based on the Caliphate of Cordoba of the IXth and Xth Centuries.

The Caliph of Córdoba ruled the Iberian peninsula (Al-Andalus) and North Africa from the city of Córdoba, from 929 to 1031. This period was characterized by remarkable success in trade and culture; many of the masterpieces of Islamic Spain were constructed in this period, including the famous Great Mosque of Córdoba. The title Caliph was claimed by Abd-ar-Rahman III on January 16, 929; he was previously known as the Emir of Córdoba. All Caliphs of Córdoba were members of the Umayyad dynasty; the same dynasty had held the title Emir of Córdoba and ruled over roughly the same territory since 756. The Caliph's rule is known as the splendor of Muslim presence in the Iberian peninsula, and marked a rare peroid of relatively peaceful and creative cohabitation of the same territory by Muslims, Christians and Jews.

The economy of the Caliph was based on a considerable economic capacity - grounded in an important trade -, highly developed craftsmanship, and the most modern agricultural techniques in Europe. It based its economy on its money, which had a fundamental role in its financial splendor. The gold cordobesa money became the most important one of these ages, which was probably imitated later by the Carolingian empire. Córdoba, the capital of the Caliphate, reached a 450,000 inhabitants, probably making it the most important human center of the World in these times.

The cultural aspects are also amazing, in particular following Al-Hakam II's control of power. This caliph founded a library which would have attained 400, 000 volumes. The Caliph of Córdoba thus became famous for its philosophy, translating to medieval Europe works from ancient Greece. Ibn Masarra, Abentofain, Averroes who returned platonism to Europe, and the Jew Maimónides (whom prepared the assemblage of the ancient Aristotelian philosophy with Christianism) were some of these famous thinkers, although the majority were known for their groundbreaking achievements in medicine, mathematics and astronomy.

An "al-Andalus" sim could illustrate these historical aspects of the caliphate in 2L whilst at the same time, contributing to a vital debate currently raging in political, legal and cultural studies: is Islam compatible with democracy and human rights? We could, for example, take such concepts as "umma" (the community), "shura" (consultation) and "sharia" (Islamic law) and integrate them in our CDS framework, thus illustrating the fact that active citizen participation in their own system of governance is a universal, transcendent concept applicable across space, time and cultural diversity.

Finally, the magnificent architecture of Cordoba, Granada and Seville of this period (Palace of Alhambra, Great Mosque of Cordoba etc) will provide us with brilliant sources of inspiration for "al-Andalus" archtecture and public spaces.

I therefore enthusiastically support Ashcroft's proposal of a medieval Arabian theme for our next sim, to be named "al-Andalus" and modelled on the Caliphate of Cordoba of IXth and Xth Century Spain.

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Re: Expansion

Post by Diderot Mirabeau »

[quote="michelmanen":3jbi6j19]A third sim that would fit perfectly into this vision and would be particularly timely and, I would even venture to say, path-breaking for future developments in RL, would be "al-Andalus": a sim based on the Caliphate of Cordoba of the IXth and Xth Centuries.[/quote:3jbi6j19]

Mindblowing account of the merits of this setting! One aspect worth assessing would however be the extent to which such a setting has what I'd like to term as "sales potential" vis a vis the current crop of SL residents. So far I think we've had some easy pickings choosing medieval Germanic and Roman as the architectural themes and it's my feeling that these scenarios have a relatively large flock of admirers or sympathisers in the "polsci"-crowd. I'd be interested to find out whether this applies to the same extent to a caliphate sim or whether we would have to accept a higher degree of responsibility for making the sales proposition on this one.

[quote="michelmanen":3jbi6j19]Finally, the magnificent architecture of Cordoba, Granada and Seville of this period (Palace of Alhambra, Great Mosque of Cordoba etc) will provide us with brilliant sources of inspiration for "al-Andalus" archtecture and public spaces. [/quote:3jbi6j19]

There are probably already many interesting examples of magnificent islamic architecture in SL that I am not aware of due to the waterfall-centric focus of my mainland explorations. However, Neufreistadt resident Erin Talamasca has for her mainland residence produced a "texture baked" house on the basis of islamic architecture (I am not aware of which era it refers to, someone more knowledgeable than me in these matters will probably be able to say). If anyone wishes to visit the residence to judge the potential artistic merits of the era feel free to TP in the area of these coordinates: [url=http://slurl.com/secondlife/riiki/128/90//:3jbi6j19]Riiki (128, 90)[/url:3jbi6j19] - it's right next to "Nectaris Art", which is also worth a visit :-)

[quote="michelmanen":3jbi6j19]I therefore enthusiastically support Ashcroft's proposal of a medieval Arabian theme for our next sim, to be named "al-Andalus" and modelled on the Caliphate of Cordoba of IXth and Xth Century Spain.[/quote:3jbi6j19]

I have yet to hear of such a proposal but it seems that a competition for proposals would be likely to have a lot of qualified entries and that is undoubtedly a good thing!

Last edited by Diderot Mirabeau on Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Expansion

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

[quote="michelmanen":6akwgmpn]A third sim that would fit perfectly into this vision and would be particularly timely and, I would even venture to say, path-breaking for future developments in RL, would be "al-Andalus": a sim based on the Caliphate of Cordoba of the IXth and Xth Centuries. [/quote:6akwgmpn]I like this idea as well. We should definitely keep this as one of the options on the table as we continue our discussions. I like it for a lot of the reasons you've outlined: it's from a period of stunning achievement in terms of intellectual development, culture and architecture and points to a period in Islamic history when Islam was a tolerant and progressive force in the world. A sim modelled on these lines would be quite a statement. Granada and Seville are very high on my list of places to visit in the near future.

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Post by Claude Desmoulins »

Two things:

[b:2lw23btz]Cordoba[/b:2lw23btz]

I find this idea quite intriguing, of all the new theme ideas bandied about.

[b:2lw23btz]Voids[/b:2lw23btz]

A sim at 80% occupancy nets us around $300. at current rates Given that we want there to be a government budget, I think two things would have to happen for voids to be practical.

1) Land fees in future sims would need to be set higher than those in present sims, so as to allow the same revenue margin at 80% occupancy (about $100 per sim over the tier costs)

2) Low prim sims come in sets of four which cost as much as one regular sim. In order not to gut the budget, I suspect that we would be hard pressed to support any circumstance in which the number of voids exceeded the number of regular sims, barring a significant land fee hike.

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Post by Aliasi Stonebender »

[quote="Claude Desmoulins":1lu2bjbk]Two things:

[b:1lu2bjbk]Voids[/b:1lu2bjbk]

2) Low prim sims come in sets of four which cost as much as one regular sim. In order not to gut the budget, I suspect that we would be hard pressed to support any circumstance in which the number of voids exceeded the number of regular sims, barring a significant land fee hike.[/quote:1lu2bjbk]

Or allow occupancy of the voidsims, as many are currently rented out.

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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Diderot Mirabeau":28q7mcgx]...I am having difficulties seeing the concrete benefits of that apart from the possibility of handing over your land to the CDS in exchange for the benefit of being allowed the use of of the judiciary, which I believe any SL resident has access to already according to wide-ranging jurisdictional competence granted to the judiciary.[/quote:28q7mcgx]

I have already addressed this a number of times. Did you not read the numerous posts (and interview on BBC radio) where I explained that, as regards the judiciary, the point is nothing to do with being "allowed to use it", but being in a position to assure others that its decisions will have some real, enforcable effect? You also do not contemplate all of the non-judiciary-related benefits, such as accounting and planning of events, cross-publicity and so forth.

[quote:28q7mcgx]Furthermore, I don't see anything in Beathan's proposal explicitly leading to the conclusion that "franchulation" is necessarily the way of integrating the sim into the CDS. There needs to be more discussion before clarifying that. For example, using "franchulation" there would be no integration of the finances of the sim into the overall economy of the CDS[/quote:28q7mcgx]

Whatever gives you that idea?

[quote:28q7mcgx]furthermore there would be no guarantee of the CDS being able to make decisions regarding the planning and use of communal spaces in such a sim.[/quote:28q7mcgx]

That is not true: the Chancellor has the power to "determine the use to which any and all land in the Confederation of Democratic Simulators shall be put".

[quote:28q7mcgx]I believe issues like these need to be resolved before one can jump to the conclusion that it must be the "franchulation" method that is the ideal way of integrating Beathan's proposal into the CDS.[/quote:28q7mcgx]

I have no idea why you think that these are unresolved issues given what I have written above.

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