Is it time to start planning again?

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Ashcroft Burnham
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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Claude Desmoulins":2c9oklhx][b:2c9oklhx]Voids[/b:2c9oklhx]

A sim at 80% occupancy nets us around $300. at current rates Given that we want there to be a government budget, I think two things would have to happen for voids to be practical.

1) Land fees in future sims would need to be set higher than those in present sims, so as to allow the same revenue margin at 80% occupancy (about $100 per sim over the tier costs)

2) Low prim sims come in sets of four which cost as much as one regular sim. In order not to gut the budget, I suspect that we would be hard pressed to support any circumstance in which the number of voids exceeded the number of regular sims, barring a significant land fee hike.[/quote:2c9oklhx]

What might work is allowing occupancy of the void sims at 1/4 of the density of the normal sims, which would ensure an equilibrium with the current financial arrangements. I am not sure whether the void sims have exactly 1/4 of the prims of a normal sim, however. They could be used to make a pleasant countriside area (perhaps with waterfalls and lakes) to balance our more urban style settings at present.

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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

If I recall correctly, the void sims are 'not recommended' for residential use. The prim limit is a 1/4 of a regular sim but, even if you were prepared to accept the limitations and reduced occupancy, they are still not recommended. Now others who are more technically-minded than me may be able to give the lowdown on why this is the case but I guess that there is some kind of performance hit that makes them only suitable for 'light' use.

Claude's pragmatic concerns about occupancy rates etc. are probably correct. We may well not be able to afford to buy a set of void sims until we have four 'regular' sims at roughly 80% occcupancy rates. I think we can wait for that. We could focus on creating two more 'cities' that have similar occupancy rates to NFS and CN and then fill in the space between with a set of void sims.

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Post by Beathan »

I think that my Justice sim proposal could be done in a low-prim sim. (Unless traffic is fatal to sim performance.) Further, Diderot's proposal of garden sims should be OK for low prim sims. Therefore, if the sim lying between CN and NF is a low prim sim, we should not disqualify it (and abandon the project of linking the sims) for that reason. Rather, we should link the sims and pursue a project that we can build on the low-prim sim.

I think that my budget for the Justice sim project is around, or possibly slightly more than, the CN budget was. However, some of this budget would have to be used for RL expenses. Also, if I were committed to pay the tier as primary owner (owner of the Justice Center Building), I would need to use some of the budgetted funds (at least initially, until a rent stream was in place).

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Post by Diderot Mirabeau »

[quote="Patroklus Murakami":cvm7j1ej]The prim limit is a 1/4 of a regular sim [/quote:cvm7j1ej]

The [url=http://history.secondserver.net/index.p ... s:cvm7j1ej]sources[/url:cvm7j1ej] I am able to find report that a void sim has only 1,875 prims as opposed to the normal 14,976 for an ordinary sim.

This translates into roughly 29 prims per 512 sqm parcel.

So if my sources are correct a void sim will hardly be suitable for occupancy beyond a single dwelling.

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Post by Diderot Mirabeau »

[quote="Beathan":1uyhd9ji]I think that my Justice sim proposal could be done in a low-prim sim. (Unless traffic is fatal to sim performance.)[/quote:1uyhd9ji]

Well, with a maximum of 1,875 prims at your disposal I think you'd be hard pressed to be able to provide enough prims for tenants in your high rise building ..

Traffic on the other hand I do not imagine to be much of a problem: The normal upper limit is around 40 avatars for one sim I believe. Since a 4-pack of void sims share the same server I imagine that they will do load balancing so that if at one moment there are 35 avatars in the Justice sim then the CPU will take away processor time from the less explored wilderness sims for the duration of the event.. The question is though the extent to which there is actual load balancing or if the shudders between the sims are watertight in terms of allocation of CPU time slots.

[quote:1uyhd9ji]Further, Diderot's proposal of garden sims should be OK for low prim sims. Therefore, if the sim lying between CN and NF is a low prim sim, we should not disqualify it (and abandon the project of linking the sims) for that reason. Rather, we should link the sims and pursue a project that we can build on the low-prim sim.

I think that my budget for the Justice sim project is around, or possibly slightly more than, the CN budget was. However, some of this budget would have to be used for RL expenses. Also, if I were committed to pay the tier as primary owner (owner of the Justice Center Building), I would need to use some of the budgetted funds (at least initially, until a rent stream was in place).[/quote:1uyhd9ji]

Following the strand of hypothetical planning I imagine that we can offer _three_ luxury occupancies dispersed across the four-pack of void sims (i.e. one for each sim) aimed only for residential use to keep traffic low in addition to the justice community that will occupy Beathan's void sim.

Now if we say that we can offer each luxury occupancy the use of 1,000 prims and allocate a portion of land in an attractive area of the wilderness sim - following normal sim conventions an area of land corresponding to 1,000 prims would be roughly 4,096 sqm - what would be the price we could reasonably charge for that per month? (i.e. what would be the projected income):

LL tier fee for 4,096 sqm of mainland holdings + monthly premium membership fee: 34 USD = 9,520 L$

One sixteenth (65,536 sqm / 4,096) of the monthly tier for a private sim 295 USD / 16 = 18 USD = 5,180 L$

Our current highest tier for 4,096 sqm = 0.0091$ * 4,096 = 37 USD = 10,436 L$

The real fee that we would need to charge for each occupancy in order to maintain the four void sims without any expenses on behalf of the CDS treasury = 295 USD / 4 = 74 USD = 20,650 L$

Of course on top of that calculation might go fees toward paying back the initial investment in a new sim but on the other hand - since that money will be recouped upon a sale they need not be paid back as part of the operating budget.

In summary for each luxury residential occupance in the middle of a beautiful wilderness sim we would need to charge 4 times as much as people would otherwise have to pay for an area of similar size in private sims - but only twice as much as people would be paying in the mainland - with all its ugliness.

To make it more feasible for people we might consider increasing the area that we rent out to their occupancy to 8,192 sqm as long as we make them understand that they will not be getting the prim allowance corresponding to 8,192 sqm in regular sims or on the mainland. To add a further incentive for people to acquire these properties we could offer them the possibility of taking part in making decisions regarding the naming and landscaping of the remainder of the sim to a certain extent.

I don't think this is an unrealistic feat to achieve - it all depends however upon whether there is an expectancy to recoup the original outlay of $,1695 to establish the sim as part of the operating budget. This I think will not be feasible. Another great uncertainty is whether we would incur costs in having people do the landscaping of the wilderness areas.

Last edited by Diderot Mirabeau on Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ranma Tardis

Post by Ranma Tardis »

The CDS is expensive compared to Caledon. I am paying 3000 lindens a month for my 2048* lot in Caledon II. The price for a lot like this is about $30 American and I need to confirm that figure with Desmond. My quick figure makes it less than the cheapest land in the Neufreistadt valley 53 American cents per month for my land in Caledon vs 57 cents a month for land in the Neufreistadt valley.
Diderot your prices are too high for a "democratic" sim. Always thought we were striving to be a community of like minded residents and not one that is trying to make as much money as possible. Your talk of "premium" pricing is disappointing to me. This brings forth the question, what are we trying to accomplish?

*my lot might be larger and will revise figure when at my real life residence.

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Post by Diderot Mirabeau »

Ranma thanks for taking the time to read and reply to my post and to supplement it with information regarding pricing in other private sims.

I feel compelled however to attach the following commentary and clarification to your response:

[quote="Ranma Tardis":1fjw8nm6]Diderot your prices are too high for a "democratic" sim. Always thought we were striving to be a community of like minded residents and not one that is trying to make as much money as possible.[/quote:1fjw8nm6]

This may be down to my difficulty in using English as precisely as I'd like to but I believe that if you read my post closely you will find that what I did was conduct a thought experiment in an attempt to find the price at which we would be able to add four void sims without any additional cost to our operating budget. That has nothing to do with making a profit.

The idea was that establishing one residence in each sim and letting the owner of that finance the additional costs of adding the void sims we would be able to grant to the CDS the beauty of the remainder of the four wilderness sims at no cost to the community.

The prices quoted in my post are not "my prices" rather they are prices derived at by calculation. The resultant price does not imply any profit it is in fact neutral relative to the budget. The purpose of the calculation was to find out if funding the void sims through rental of land would be a feasible way of financing them by comparing the resultant cost with similar land ownership through alternative means.

In comparing price levels with Caledon one should take into account that what you get there is 2048 sqm and a guarantee that there will be other residents buildings on the land surrounding your plot. The scenario that I've established guarantees that there will be no neighbouring buildings to your plot in the remaining area of 57,000 - 61,000 sqm. Surely people would be willing to pay more for that.

[quote:1fjw8nm6]Your talk of "premium" pricing is disappointing to me. This brings forth the question, what are we trying to accomplish?[/quote:1fjw8nm6]

The question of what we are trying to accomplish is easily answered: We are trying to accomplish the addition of four void wilderness sims to our community at as low a negative impact to our budget as possible. My little exercise has shown the pricing we would need to charge if the community is not willing to pay a single Linden on a monthly basis to enjoy the benefit of four wilderness sims around us. Probably, the community will understand the improved quality of life of being surrounded by wilderness and will be willing to finance the addition at least in part.

Your post comes across to me as accusing me of failing the CDS' democratic values in favour of all out profitmaking from land sales.

This may be a misunderstanding on my side but if that is really what you take away from my previous post I'd like to ask for a little more goodwill in relation to interpreting the intention of my proposals. Like everyone else here I have invested time and resources into the community because I believe in the ideal that the best community is based on democratic governance and participation. I find an accusation that I'm participating in order to turn the project into a vehicle for profit to be somewhat saddening and disappointing.

Ranma Tardis

Post by Ranma Tardis »

Diderot I did not mean to pick on you as a citizen. It is just that we are already paying too much to both buy and own land in the CDS. At this time we have a price markup (rent, tier) in excess of 50 percent of what the city pays to Linden Labs.
The city took in a bit over 3k in loans for the new sim but paid only 1250 to linden labs. Where is all of this money going? Are we paying the content providers to make Colonia Nova? My quick and ready math shows about 1/2 of the money unaccounted. Why does land in Colonia Nova cost over twice that in Caledon? It is closer to three times and please don’t quote me prices on the mainland. We are supposed to be above them. *laugh*
Looking at Caledon again, Desmond has just reduced his prices charged to his residents again. Why is the CDS so expensive?
Again Diderot I am not picking on you or calling names. Again I call for a meeting of all of the citizens.

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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Ranma Tardis":10agsgj2]The CDS is expensive compared to Caledon. I am paying 3000 lindens a month for my 2048* lot in Caledon II. The price for a lot like this is about $30 American and I need to confirm that figure with Desmond. My quick figure makes it less than the cheapest land in the Neufreistadt valley 53 American cents per month for my land in Caledon vs 57 cents a month for land in the Neufreistadt valley.[/quote:10agsgj2]

One of the reasons that things are cheaper in Caledon is no doubt becasuse there is vastly less public land in Caledon. Desmond tells me that he limits to about 5% (if I recall correctly) the amount of public land in Caledon; Colonia Nova has 10% public land, and Neufreistadt about 30%. For that reason, Desmond can make more of a profit by having more residents per sim, but charging each resident less per unit of land.

Effectively, the deal that you get in Caledon is that you get to do whatever you like (within the covenants) with your own bit of land for the lower price, but then only get to use a very small amount of public land, the rest of the land being taken by other people's private land. In the CDS, you get full control (within the covenants) of your own bit of land for a slighlty higher price, plus the communal use of a great deal more public land. Neither one or ther other is a better deal overall: it is just a matter of different priorities.

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Post by Aliasi Stonebender »

Quite so. Caledon doesn't have the numerous 'public use' spaces we have. Any citizen can hold an event in the Church, Platz, Biergarden, CN Ampitheatre, etc provided they notify the Chancellor (so someone can set the actual event listing in the calendar). An impromptu, unscheduled or unlisted event can be held at any time those places are not in use. Similarly, we have the community 'general store' in NFS - which I would love to see more use of; with CN humming along I'm intending to use the remainder of my term on these 'little' projects such as making the store an active concern.

As we continue to develop, other public-use institutions will be created; the planned games in CN would be one example.

In any case, we've never been about competing on cost. As any MBA could tell you, businesses can compete on cost, or on quality, or by servicing a niche (and choosing one of those first two specialties within that niche). Insofar as the CDS-as-business is a valid way to look at it, we service a niche; we're here to be a democratic community. Within that niche, I believe most would agree we have a focus on quality. Our aim has been to be [i:2qyvt5hd]similar[/i:2qyvt5hd] to mainland costs, not the typical 'we pay less for a sim and pass the savings on to you!' private sim scheme.

I remember Desmond once wryly remarked on the old LL forums the only thing he owned in Caledon is the roads; those and his mainland shop formed the sum total of 'his' land. Here, all citizens 'own' the public land in common. Neither way is necessarily more correct; each simply has a different aim. To compare the two is to compare apples and a 1988 Ford Mustang.

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Post by Ranma Tardis »

Aliasi I think a public dissusion on rates is in order. For your infomation I did not buy property in Neufreistadt to live in a area like the mainland. About all of the public spaces there is not a lot of imfomation about them or how to get "rights" to use them.
About Caledon, Desmond is about to bring the void sims online (awaiting for Linden Labs to process order). I will let him describe how these will be used to benifit the community at large.
I would like to see some sort of budget meeting on how the funds of the CDS are used.
I disagree with the concept of charging as much as possible. Might as well live in Dreamland. We are suppose to be a democratic sim where these decisions are made by the citizens and not an elite. The citizens need to be able to make a choice between different plans.

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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Ranma Tardis":dsoyfg0c]About all of the public spaces there is not a lot of imfomation about them or how to get "rights" to use them.[/quote:dsoyfg0c]

What more information could be needed than seeing the public spaces there, free for all to use unless there is a scheduled event going on? Anyone can use the public spaces at any time unless they are (unusually) pre-booked for something else. And if you want to know how to pre-book them, "ask the Chancellor" seems like a fairly straightorward way of doing things.

[quote:dsoyfg0c]I disagree with the concept of charging as much as possible.[/quote:dsoyfg0c]

Why do you think that we are charging "as much as possible", rather than an amount that is commensurate with the services that we provide and the public space that we have?

[quote:dsoyfg0c]We are suppose to be a democratic sim where these decisions are made by the citizens and not an elite. The citizens need to be able to make a choice between different plans.[/quote:dsoyfg0c]

We have a representative democracy. Those who have been elected to the legislature cannot properly be described as "an elite", since anybody may be elected by the whole citizenry. The citizenry has the opportunity to make a choice about how the budget is spent by voting in elections. The citizenry voted for the DPU, whose policy was to have no more than 10% of the space in Colonia Nova reserved for public space, a lesser figure than in Neufreistadt. I think that they might also be committed to redeveloping the Schloss and Old Altenburg to abstract from those areas at least some more private land.

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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

[quote="Ranma Tardis":7gu75143]Aliasi I think a public dissusion on rates is in order. ...
I would like to see some sort of budget meeting on how the funds of the CDS are used.
...We are suppose to be a democratic sim where these decisions are made by the citizens and not an elite. The citizens need to be able to make a choice between different plans.[/quote:7gu75143]Ranma, I put together a draft budget for CN some weeks back which I shared with the members of the Finance Sub-group of the Sim Planning Committee. When I can get it looking 'tidy' (it's currently a messy Excel spreadsheet) and work out how to post it on the forums I will post it so that everyone can see it. I don't think that the excess money raised for Colonia Nova can be used for any other purpose until the RA authorises an alternative use; the Act only specified the CN project as a use for the money.

On rental rates in the CDS: they don't seem excessive to me, even by the figures you've given, but I see no problem in having a debate on it. I was thinking of suggesting that we put them up in order to establish an 'expansion fund' or pay for void sims to enhance the beauty of the territory! Diderot has come up with some interesting ideas for how we might be able to achieve this with less of an impact on the budget. But if you think they should be lower can you say how much lower? And have you calculated what effect that would have on the CDS budget? It is essential that we continue to have enough income to pay tier each month. We are lucky that we have an excellent Treasurer in Sudane who has made sure we've achieved this.

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Post by Aliasi Stonebender »

[quote="Ranma Tardis":e77f7gtr]Aliasi I think a public dissusion on rates is in order. For your infomation I did not buy property in Neufreistadt to live in a area like the mainland.
[/quote:e77f7gtr]

Nor did most. I was speaking only of cost. Someone owning an entire private island paid less on a per m^2 basis than someone with a premium account and any amount of land. Thus, the main way private islands have 'competed' is to choose a price for their land that lies beween the price they pay, and the price LL would charge for mainland land.

We do not, although our prices are still set to be similar to that one would pay on the mainland.

[quote:e77f7gtr]
About all of the public spaces there is not a lot of imfomation about them or how to get "rights" to use them.
[/quote:e77f7gtr]

You are right, and this is something I shall have to work to correct. Given our small, village-like existence it's been generally assumed "if it deals with the public land, talk to the Guildmaster", and now, "talk to the Chancellor". Explicit guidelines would be a good idea.

[quote:e77f7gtr]
would like to see some sort of budget meeting on how the funds of the CDS are used.
[/quote:e77f7gtr]

We have those. They're RA meetings.

[quote:e77f7gtr]
I disagree with the concept of charging as much as possible. Might as well live in Dreamland. We are suppose to be a democratic sim where these decisions are made by the citizens and not an elite. The citizens need to be able to make a choice between different plans.[/quote:e77f7gtr]

The basic choice is made when you first join. We do not hide the costs of land here in any way, after all. The secondary choice is made by the elected representatives of the citizenry. The tertiary choice is made when one decides to stay or not to stay.

That said, I do believe looking at the costs of land and revising it periodically is a good thing, but with loans to pay off and now civil service jobs to handle, I don't believe this is something we can reduce currently.

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Post by Ranma Tardis »

[quote="Aliasi Stonebender":2bnd6nay][quote="Ranma Tardis":2bnd6nay]Aliasi I think a public dissusion on rates is in order. For your infomation I did not buy property in Neufreistadt to live in a area like the mainland.
[/quote:2bnd6nay]

Nor did most. I was speaking only of cost. Someone owning an entire private island paid less on a per m^2 basis than someone with a premium account and any amount of land. Thus, the main way private islands have 'competed' is to choose a price for their land that lies beween the price they pay, and the price LL would charge for mainland land.

We do not, although our prices are still set to be similar to that one would pay on the mainland.

[quote:2bnd6nay]
About all of the public spaces there is not a lot of imfomation about them or how to get "rights" to use them.
[/quote:2bnd6nay]

You are right, and this is something I shall have to work to correct. Given our small, village-like existence it's been generally assumed "if it deals with the public land, talk to the Guildmaster", and now, "talk to the Chancellor". Explicit guidelines would be a good idea.

[quote:2bnd6nay]
would like to see some sort of budget meeting on how the funds of the CDS are used.
[/quote:2bnd6nay]

We have those. They're RA meetings.

[quote:2bnd6nay]
I disagree with the concept of charging as much as possible. Might as well live in Dreamland. We are suppose to be a democratic sim where these decisions are made by the citizens and not an elite. The citizens need to be able to make a choice between different plans.[/quote:2bnd6nay]

The basic choice is made when you first join. We do not hide the costs of land here in any way, after all. The secondary choice is made by the elected representatives of the citizenry. The tertiary choice is made when one decides to stay or not to stay.

That said, I do believe looking at the costs of land and revising it periodically is a good thing, but with loans to pay off and now civil service jobs to handle, I don't believe this is something we can reduce currently.[/quote:2bnd6nay]

This is becomming pointless and is my last reply.
I always thought we were above the other sims but it seems that that view was wrong.
I think you are missing an important point and you are clueless.
Well enough said! I have nothing more to say!

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