CSDF General Meeting Friday 8 Dec - Transcript

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Patroklus Murakami
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CSDF General Meeting Friday 8 Dec - Transcript

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

The next General Meeting of the CSDF will be on:

Friday 8 December at 3pm in

The Red House, Lowland Road, Neufreistadt.

Agenda

1. Welcome to new members

2. Judiciary Act

3. Election

Please post other ideas for agenda items in this thread.

All welcome but we'll probably kick non-members out when we start talking about the election :)

Last edited by Patroklus Murakami on Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Patroklus Murakami
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Transcript 1/2

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

[color=Black:l4f7i3fl][i:l4f7i3fl]Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1[/i:l4f7i3fl][/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Sienna:l4f7i3fl][i:l4f7i3fl]Region: Neufreistadt (246528, 249600)[/i:l4f7i3fl][/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:l4f7i3fl][i:l4f7i3fl]Local-Position: (99, 79, 128)[/i:l4f7i3fl][/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkGreen:l4f7i3fl][i:l4f7i3fl]Meeting on 2006-12-08[/i:l4f7i3fl][/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Those present[/b:l4f7i3fl]: [/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][i:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami is in the chair.[/i:l4f7i3fl][/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][i:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:l4f7i3fl][/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkSlateGray:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Extropia DaSilva[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Beg and ye shall be TP'd:)[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: hi extropia[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: lol[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Hello Extropia[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkSlateGray:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Extropia DaSilva[/b:l4f7i3fl]: I will only speak to say 'hello' and to point out that this week my eye colour is 'lavander' as chosen by Gwyn:)[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: :D[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: So I am hoping we can put the white lists off both here and in the RA, or am I being optimistic?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: oh that was the reason then, Ex :)[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: welcome to the 85th General Meeting of the CSDF (or something like that). agenda is in the notecard giver. pls touch the recorder to indicate consent for the chat log[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][i:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:l4f7i3fl][/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: lol Pat![/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][i:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:l4f7i3fl][/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: well, i think everyone agrees on removing teh white lists[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: yes, jon :) i hope so[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: lol[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Lavender lists from now on.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][i:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant hums the Internationale :D[/i:l4f7i3fl][/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: shall we begin[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: lol[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: item 1. welcome to new members. none, as far as i know[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: ok[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: item 2. judiciary act. the gift that keeps on giving :)[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: lol[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: who wants to kick off?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: yes, sighs loudly[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: a true cornucopia, i agree[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: well[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: i feel fairly lost myself in it already[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Jon, can you try and make sense of latest developments?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: i'll comment along[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Ah, I am sure there are more on the forums since I last looked.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: help...[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: hm Gwyn?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: i think i have the latest bills on the notecard[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: MORE on the forums.... I need help :)[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: i had an interesting conversation with beathan yesterday.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: At least 12 clones.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: oh?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: yes, we talked for an hour or so[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Oh, forget me, please. I'm looking forward to read the 250 new posts or so during the weekend. So, what did Beathan say?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: i asked him 'what's the worst that could happen?' if we continue[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: btw Justice is working on a revision of this proposal[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Ok...[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: with the judiciary act. the answer?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][i:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn listens to drum rolls.[/i:l4f7i3fl][/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: "nothing"? :)[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: it may collapse under its own weight, effort might be lsot, bad decisions might be made..[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: big whoop![/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Hmm[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: hmmmmmm[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Well, I have reason to think that a working system is needed to protect citizens.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: i attempted today to write a document[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: So I don't take this lightly.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: so i could clear these issues in my mind[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: yes, jon? pls elaborate[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][i:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant listens to Jon[/i:l4f7i3fl][/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][i:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle sighs and chooses his words carefully[/i:l4f7i3fl][/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: especially for new people, greifing can be a serious thing.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: yes, i agree[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkSlateGray:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Extropia DaSilva[/b:l4f7i3fl]: I met a woman who was quite upset by some griefers.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: the ability to ban greifers means the difference between safety and fear walking the streets[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: yes[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: ok[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: mind you, the marshals of the peace can ban all griefers[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: i don't know the exact words in english[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Yes, they can but very temporarily[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: but catching a person in misdeed in portugal quite simplifies the process[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: so, we need a functioning judiciary to handle these incidents?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkSlateGray:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Extropia DaSilva[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Um..I know I said I would not speak but...Won't griefers take it as a badge of honour if they are banned? I think, instead, we need to educate people to just disregard them. Starve them of the oxygen of distress.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: I beleve we do. And one that is set up to protect citizens.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: well, extropia, i guess it depends on the 'type' of griefing incident. for some it's jsut a phase, for others it's their reason to be here[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Extropia, I know of one case were it meant the difference between someone staying on in SL and leaving. Knowing that she could walk around the sim and not meet their attacker.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: *her[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkSlateGray:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Extropia DaSilva[/b:l4f7i3fl]: I see. That is an unfortunate dilema.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: i think we all agree that the JA is - or should be - indeed a guarantee that citizens feel safe[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: my questions arise from teh reasons that make it perhaps not be[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: One of its functions, yes...[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: and that, i think[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: arises not from the JA itself[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: but on a conflict about interpretation[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: and that is what we must solve, i think[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: do we think the JA has popular support? or is there really a backlash against it? have ppl 'changed their minds"?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: i don't know Pat[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: I thik there is a serious backlash.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: i think teh subject is being deliberately stirred[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: All this conflict in the forums does not help.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Well, from about 20% of the population ? the rest ignore it.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: again, a conflict on interpreations[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: but, to be frank, the backlash is really against ash's actions, not the JA[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Pat, I agree with that.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: that is why i think teh commission bill is important[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: the commission can establish final interpretations[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Yes, I do agree as well?? people are talking about a *person*, not his role.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: well, but the RA should be able to think without animosity, no?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: i agree the commission is the sensible way forward. do we think that it has support from other RA members?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: But the other problem is that Ash's actions revelal a flaw in the current JA that also needs to be fixed.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: True.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: The Judiciary works well with 0 or 2 or more Judges,[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][i:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami listens to Jon[/i:l4f7i3fl][/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: pat, after talking to the dpu... i am not sure[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: it doesn't work with only one :([/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: yes, but that issue can be solved in days[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: yes![/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: if i am not mistaken, applications deadline was today[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: todat at midnight PST,[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: and i really honestly can't jump to teh conclusion that Ash will turn everyone away[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: 2 applications confirmed, one pending confirmation[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Well, *received* :)[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: so, if we get two more judges, problem solved?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Legally and constitutionally? Definitely, yes.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: there is a remaining of problem because of code of procedures[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Socially? I don't know![/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: since ash has already defined it[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: what do u think of justices' latest proposal?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: well, i have aproblem with Justice's proposal[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Too much power in the RA :)[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: ah, my problem is not that, my problem is one of coherence[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Ah, do you mean his proposal for the commission, or his proposal for the JA?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: JA, i believe?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: yes moon. i thought he withdrew the other proposal[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: He will now go for the commission I think, under conditions.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: my issue is[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: we discussed teh other bill for 4 months[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: and people say it has not been enough discussion[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: i don't like the undue speed. no one's given a good reason for making changes so quickly[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: yet now they rush to a proposal that has hmmm weeks?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: They want to get this in before the election.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: of course .)[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Ash's arbitration bill is a good idea. allow both systems to work in paralletl and then judge[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: yes...[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: mind you, i am not criticizing the proposal itself, i am sure Justice did a good and honest work[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: But hmm[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: won't that undermine the whole system? :)[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: it's just a question of coherence[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: We might find out, after all, that all we needed was arbitration, lol[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][i:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*[/i:l4f7i3fl][/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Well, the RA passed a bill asking Ash to do certain things. To my knowledge he has not done those things.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: ah[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Gwyn, what is the status of that?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: oh yes moon, i agree justice is being entirely sincere. well gwyn, that would be a good thing to learn[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: gwyn, your opinion on that?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Ok[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: I think i've posted a comment on the SC announcement forum... :)[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: of Justice's total sincerity i have absolutely no doubt[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: In effect, Ashcroft was entrusted to do 2 things:[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: - qualification procedures[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: - code of precedures[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: he did both,.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: as well as receiving applications[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: in the alloted time.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: ok, so that argument falls[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: the SC, which did not know what to do if he kept the timeline,[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: postponed the discussion for today :-D[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: No, I am refering to the other bill on how the procedures would be drafted[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: (the SC members are clever)[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Hmm?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: which one, Jon?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Which bill would that be?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: The one Publicis submitted. All but the last phase was passed.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: With the current abandonment state of the Wiki, I might have not kept up with a few items of legislation...[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Let me look it up.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: we must solve that wiki issue[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Well, that's another story,[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: I can't put pressure on Claude for that,[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: since I'm always one month delayed about posting the SC thingies?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: but I'll try to get a "SC Archivist" asap[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: I found a draft, but I think this was not the final version[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Jon ? is that part of the agenda for tomorrow's RA?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: was this his proposal for the last but one RA?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: This was the bill passed the RA meeting before the last one.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: "Resolution re Judiciary"[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: yes, i recall but i don't remember teh detail[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: hmm[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: A fully-constituted board of at least three members should propose rules (procedures, ethics, qualifications).. but I do not have the final draft[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: was it approved?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Yes, everyone voted for it except for Pel who voted against.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: oops lol[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: i think the first two/three clauses were approved. but i'm not sure ti bound anyone to anything[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: It was notice, at the very least, that Ash needed to let other people into the process.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: wait wait ? what was approved?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: As far as I can tell that was not what happened.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Was that specifically approved *before* the Code of Procedures was presented?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Yes, it was.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][i:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami searches the RA transcript[/i:l4f7i3fl][/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Well Jon ? that's good news then :)[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: But I don't know what parts we ended up with.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][i:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn has no transcript to search ;)[/i:l4f7i3fl][/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: i often feel a bit lost during the RA sessions, i must say[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: This is very important.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: meh, can't get into the wiki[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: I'm sorry,[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: i am not surprised that we can't find the point[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: I did really not remember that having been approved![/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Because hmm[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: let me see RA announcements[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Ashcroft's "claim" that the RA can't change the Code of procedures,[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: and the "claim" that the Code of Procedures is in effect[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: might simply be untrue.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: darn.. I wish I could find the final text.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Sorry.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: And no wiki.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: what would be the date of that RA?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: actually ash has clarified that the RA *can* replace the code of procedure, it jsut can't strike it down without putting something else in its place[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: if teh 18th Nov, the minutes just say[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: nah, can't be these[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: as Jon says Pel voted against[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: found it![/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: from RA announcements[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: http://forums.neufreistadt.info/viewtopic.php?t=536[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Ash: "In summary, the legislature can say what the procedure is, but cannot say that there will be no procedure at all."[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: At its November 11 meeting, the RA approved the following non binding resolution. Yeas - Desmoulins, Seattle, Soothsayer Nay - Eldrich NV - Adamant[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: RESOLUTION REGARDING THE IMPLEMENTATION OF A JUDICIARY Whereas, having further considered the implementation of a judiciary, IT IS THE SENSE OF THE R.A. THAT:[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: 1) The SC should qualify and RA should appoint at least three (two additional) judges.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: 2) There should be at least three Judges to constitute the Board of the Judiciary; once fully constituted the Board should elect one of their number to serve as Chief Judge.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkSlateGray:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Extropia DaSilva[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Somebody wake up Gwyn![/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Jon, why wasn't it non-binding[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: oh sorry ? I was brewing some tea.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: but empowering the SC to appoint two further judges wd require a Const Amend. I took that to mean 'we, the RA, want Ash to make progress on this, if not, we will intervene'[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: why would it be non-binding?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: yes[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: that 's why it was non-binding[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: read above[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: the RA wanted to give Ash time to get on with it[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Ok[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: So hmm[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: i suggest we give this ten more mins before moving on[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Right...[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][i:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn is really a bit confused on what to say.[/i:l4f7i3fl][/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: I want to be clear what my position is on all this. Know that I may differ with others.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: But I may well vote on principle in this case.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Well, my personal position is a mess ? if I publiclly oopose anything related to the JA,[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: it means that by default the judiciary powers fall back to the Dean of the Scientific Council and His Merry Gang[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: *her :)[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: and this would be seen as a move to fall back to the stus quo[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: of times long gone[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: ah yes, hehe[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: also that was a misquote, the band was of Merry Men I think :)[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: lol, I like the Marry Gang better[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: so, which way do u want to vote jon?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][i:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn has to abstain sadly[/i:l4f7i3fl][/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][i:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant raises her hand to speak next[/i:l4f7i3fl][/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: I think we need to vote to bring all the parties, especially Ash to the negotating table. I am not convinced that just suggesting nicely will work given the history of this sitution.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: We need the commission, but the commission needs to really have the mandate to seriously work out a solution[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: i'd like to avoid any sudden changes to the system before it's had a chance to begin, the external pressure needs to be resisted[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Jon[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: moon, u wanted to come in on this?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: yes[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: my idea is[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][i:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle listens[/i:l4f7i3fl][/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: to propose another JA is not the way to go[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: teh RA has a tool now - teh commission[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: teh commission should be set tasks[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: namely, provide interpretations to points in dispute[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: tehse points should be clearly set[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: sending the comission to work without tasks, and while preparing another JA...[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: I have been trying to proposal that we temporarily suspend the current JA so that we can negotate. And send the powers back (on a short term basis) to the SC and its band of merry persons[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: but jon, the JA *cannot* be suspended. that wd leave us in limbo[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: yes[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: that is why there is an alternative[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: and that is[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: make an aamend to JA[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Without suspending the JA, Ash will have no reason to negotiate.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: stating that in the following cases, A, B, C[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: these cases being cases in which there is an impediment to fair trial[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: say, teh schedule is past[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Hmm[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: or you don't have judges (imagien an hypothetic case where all judges are connected to a party)[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: My feeling is that Ash's behavor in this matter is so far off the mark that there is an imdediment in most trials.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: the cases fall automatically on SC[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: hmm, we're at time on this now. do we continue to discuss the JA?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: please, yes[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: i do need to make sure on this[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: because tomorrow i am going to attend RA and must have an opinion defined[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: i think the commission is a good idea, but justices' proposal is too prescrriptive and repeal shd be rejected[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: i am not happy with suspension of JA, i am not happy with incoherence of setting in a new proposal in haste[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Pat, what are your main concerns in summary?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: in the meantime, let's see what transpires. the RA can set down markers for success but shd refrain from changing anything just yet, its' too soon to judge[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: jon, my main concerns?[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: i think the commission should be allowed a fair opportunity to work freely - and should be set tasks to accomplish[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Yes, about Justice's proposal for the commission.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: that we make changes too quickly, without having a chance to see this system work in operation. that having taken a well-founded decsion, we allow ourselves to be 'bounced' into making a bad decision.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: exactly[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: my concerns also[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: justices' proposal is too prescriptive and too rushed[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Ah, but the commission allows you to work on these issues[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: he would have us judge this system on no evidence[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: i wouldn't say a 'bad' decision... but inded dto be bounced[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Jon[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: for teh commission to work on these issues carefully[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: the time scale has to be reasonable, two weeks is not reasonable[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: tasks should be set[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: and they aren't being discussed so far[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Well, the RA cannot set tasks.. that would not be possible given our limits.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: the RA CAN set tasks[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: the RA can say:[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: i think moon means the Commission can set the boundaries for discusssion, the terms of the inquiry[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: define an interpretation for Section B, Article 200[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: exactly[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: pinpoint the disputes, and encompass teh discussion towards that goal[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: specially with a 10-day commission[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkOrange:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Jon Seattle[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Assume that the resolution of the RA is non-binding. Why would we ever want to have a cheif judge who felt fine ignoring the RA's bills.[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=DarkRed:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Moon Adamant[/b:l4f7i3fl]: but why do you assume that?![/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Navy:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Patroklus Murakami[/b:l4f7i3fl]: well, the judiciary is *supposed* to be independant![/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Hmm[/color:l4f7i3fl]
[color=Indigo:l4f7i3fl][b:l4f7i3fl]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:l4f7i3fl]: Yes, like Pat said[/color:l4f7i3fl]

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Patroklus Murakami
Forum Wizard
Forum Wizard
Posts: 1929
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:54 pm

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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

[color=Black:1qyw3yus][i:1qyw3yus]Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1[/i:1qyw3yus][/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Sienna:1qyw3yus][i:1qyw3yus]Region: Neufreistadt (246528, 249600)[/i:1qyw3yus][/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1qyw3yus][i:1qyw3yus]Local-Position: (99, 79, 128)[/i:1qyw3yus][/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkGreen:1qyw3yus][i:1qyw3yus]Meeting on 2006-12-08[/i:1qyw3yus][/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Those present[/b:1qyw3yus]: [/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][i:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami is in the chair.[/i:1qyw3yus][/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][i:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:1qyw3yus][/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Extropia DaSilva[/b:1qyw3yus]: Beg and ye shall be TP'd:)[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: hi extropia[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: lol[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: Hello Extropia[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Extropia DaSilva[/b:1qyw3yus]: I will only speak to say 'hello' and to point out that this week my eye colour is 'lavander' as chosen by Gwyn:)[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: :D[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: So I am hoping we can put the white lists off both here and in the RA, or am I being optimistic?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: oh that was the reason then, Ex :)[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: welcome to the 85th General Meeting of the CSDF (or something like that). agenda is in the notecard giver. pls touch the recorder to indicate consent for the chat log[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][i:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:1qyw3yus][/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: lol Pat![/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][i:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:1qyw3yus][/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: well, i think everyone agrees on removing teh white lists[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: yes, jon :) i hope so[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: lol[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: Lavender lists from now on.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][i:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant hums the Internationale :D[/i:1qyw3yus][/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: shall we begin[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: lol[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: item 1. welcome to new members. none, as far as i know[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: ok[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: item 2. judiciary act. the gift that keeps on giving :)[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: lol[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: who wants to kick off?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: yes, sighs loudly[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: a true cornucopia, i agree[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: well[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: i feel fairly lost myself in it already[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: Jon, can you try and make sense of latest developments?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: i'll comment along[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: Ah, I am sure there are more on the forums since I last looked.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: help...[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: hm Gwyn?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: i think i have the latest bills on the notecard[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: MORE on the forums.... I need help :)[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: i had an interesting conversation with beathan yesterday.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: At least 12 clones.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: oh?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: yes, we talked for an hour or so[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: Oh, forget me, please. I'm looking forward to read the 250 new posts or so during the weekend. So, what did Beathan say?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: i asked him 'what's the worst that could happen?' if we continue[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: btw Justice is working on a revision of this proposal[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: Ok...[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: with the judiciary act. the answer?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][i:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn listens to drum rolls.[/i:1qyw3yus][/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: "nothing"? :)[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: it may collapse under its own weight, effort might be lsot, bad decisions might be made..[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: big whoop![/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: Hmm[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: hmmmmmm[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: Well, I have reason to think that a working system is needed to protect citizens.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: i attempted today to write a document[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: So I don't take this lightly.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: so i could clear these issues in my mind[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: yes, jon? pls elaborate[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][i:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant listens to Jon[/i:1qyw3yus][/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][i:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle sighs and chooses his words carefully[/i:1qyw3yus][/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: especially for new people, greifing can be a serious thing.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: yes, i agree[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Extropia DaSilva[/b:1qyw3yus]: I met a woman who was quite upset by some griefers.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: the ability to ban greifers means the difference between safety and fear walking the streets[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: yes[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: ok[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: mind you, the marshals of the peace can ban all griefers[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: i don't know the exact words in english[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: Yes, they can but very temporarily[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: but catching a person in misdeed in portugal quite simplifies the process[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: so, we need a functioning judiciary to handle these incidents?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Extropia DaSilva[/b:1qyw3yus]: Um..I know I said I would not speak but...Won't griefers take it as a badge of honour if they are banned? I think, instead, we need to educate people to just disregard them. Starve them of the oxygen of distress.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: I beleve we do. And one that is set up to protect citizens.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: well, extropia, i guess it depends on the 'type' of griefing incident. for some it's jsut a phase, for others it's their reason to be here[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: Extropia, I know of one case were it meant the difference between someone staying on in SL and leaving. Knowing that she could walk around the sim and not meet their attacker.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: *her[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Extropia DaSilva[/b:1qyw3yus]: I see. That is an unfortunate dilema.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: i think we all agree that the JA is - or should be - indeed a guarantee that citizens feel safe[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: my questions arise from teh reasons that make it perhaps not be[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: One of its functions, yes...[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: and that, i think[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: arises not from the JA itself[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: but on a conflict about interpretation[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: and that is what we must solve, i think[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: do we think the JA has popular support? or is there really a backlash against it? have ppl 'changed their minds"?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: i don't know Pat[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: I thik there is a serious backlash.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: i think teh subject is being deliberately stirred[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: All this conflict in the forums does not help.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: Well, from about 20% of the population ? the rest ignore it.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: again, a conflict on interpreations[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: but, to be frank, the backlash is really against ash's actions, not the JA[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: Pat, I agree with that.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: that is why i think teh commission bill is important[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: the commission can establish final interpretations[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: Yes, I do agree as well?? people are talking about a *person*, not his role.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: well, but the RA should be able to think without animosity, no?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: i agree the commission is the sensible way forward. do we think that it has support from other RA members?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: But the other problem is that Ash's actions revelal a flaw in the current JA that also needs to be fixed.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: True.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: The Judiciary works well with 0 or 2 or more Judges,[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][i:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami listens to Jon[/i:1qyw3yus][/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: pat, after talking to the dpu... i am not sure[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: it doesn't work with only one :([/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: yes, but that issue can be solved in days[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: yes![/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: if i am not mistaken, applications deadline was today[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: todat at midnight PST,[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: and i really honestly can't jump to teh conclusion that Ash will turn everyone away[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: 2 applications confirmed, one pending confirmation[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: Well, *received* :)[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: so, if we get two more judges, problem solved?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: Legally and constitutionally? Definitely, yes.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: there is a remaining of problem because of code of procedures[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: Socially? I don't know![/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: since ash has already defined it[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: what do u think of justices' latest proposal?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: well, i have aproblem with Justice's proposal[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: Too much power in the RA :)[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: ah, my problem is not that, my problem is one of coherence[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: Ah, do you mean his proposal for the commission, or his proposal for the JA?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: JA, i believe?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: yes moon. i thought he withdrew the other proposal[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: He will now go for the commission I think, under conditions.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: my issue is[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: we discussed teh other bill for 4 months[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: and people say it has not been enough discussion[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: i don't like the undue speed. no one's given a good reason for making changes so quickly[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: yet now they rush to a proposal that has hmmm weeks?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: They want to get this in before the election.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: of course .)[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: Ash's arbitration bill is a good idea. allow both systems to work in paralletl and then judge[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: yes...[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: mind you, i am not criticizing the proposal itself, i am sure Justice did a good and honest work[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: But hmm[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: won't that undermine the whole system? :)[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: it's just a question of coherence[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: We might find out, after all, that all we needed was arbitration, lol[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][i:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*[/i:1qyw3yus][/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: Well, the RA passed a bill asking Ash to do certain things. To my knowledge he has not done those things.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: ah[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: Gwyn, what is the status of that?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: oh yes moon, i agree justice is being entirely sincere. well gwyn, that would be a good thing to learn[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: gwyn, your opinion on that?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: Ok[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: I think i've posted a comment on the SC announcement forum... :)[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: of Justice's total sincerity i have absolutely no doubt[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: In effect, Ashcroft was entrusted to do 2 things:[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: - qualification procedures[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: - code of precedures[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: he did both,.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: as well as receiving applications[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: in the alloted time.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: ok, so that argument falls[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: the SC, which did not know what to do if he kept the timeline,[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: postponed the discussion for today :-D[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: No, I am refering to the other bill on how the procedures would be drafted[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: (the SC members are clever)[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: Hmm?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: which one, Jon?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: Which bill would that be?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: The one Publicis submitted. All but the last phase was passed.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: With the current abandonment state of the Wiki, I might have not kept up with a few items of legislation...[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: Let me look it up.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: we must solve that wiki issue[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: Well, that's another story,[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: I can't put pressure on Claude for that,[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: since I'm always one month delayed about posting the SC thingies?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: but I'll try to get a "SC Archivist" asap[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: I found a draft, but I think this was not the final version[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: Jon ? is that part of the agenda for tomorrow's RA?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: was this his proposal for the last but one RA?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: This was the bill passed the RA meeting before the last one.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: "Resolution re Judiciary"[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: yes, i recall but i don't remember teh detail[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: hmm[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: A fully-constituted board of at least three members should propose rules (procedures, ethics, qualifications).. but I do not have the final draft[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: was it approved?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: Yes, everyone voted for it except for Pel who voted against.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: oops lol[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: i think the first two/three clauses were approved. but i'm not sure ti bound anyone to anything[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: It was notice, at the very least, that Ash needed to let other people into the process.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: wait wait ? what was approved?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: As far as I can tell that was not what happened.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: Was that specifically approved *before* the Code of Procedures was presented?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: Yes, it was.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][i:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami searches the RA transcript[/i:1qyw3yus][/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: Well Jon ? that's good news then :)[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: But I don't know what parts we ended up with.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][i:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn has no transcript to search ;)[/i:1qyw3yus][/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: i often feel a bit lost during the RA sessions, i must say[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: This is very important.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: meh, can't get into the wiki[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: I'm sorry,[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: i am not surprised that we can't find the point[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: I did really not remember that having been approved![/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: Because hmm[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: let me see RA announcements[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: Ashcroft's "claim" that the RA can't change the Code of procedures,[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: and the "claim" that the Code of Procedures is in effect[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: might simply be untrue.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: darn.. I wish I could find the final text.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: Sorry.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: And no wiki.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: what would be the date of that RA?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: actually ash has clarified that the RA *can* replace the code of procedure, it jsut can't strike it down without putting something else in its place[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: if teh 18th Nov, the minutes just say[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: nah, can't be these[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: as Jon says Pel voted against[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: found it![/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: from RA announcements[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: http://forums.neufreistadt.info/viewtopic.php?t=536[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: Ash: "In summary, the legislature can say what the procedure is, but cannot say that there will be no procedure at all."[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: At its November 11 meeting, the RA approved the following non binding resolution. Yeas - Desmoulins, Seattle, Soothsayer Nay - Eldrich NV - Adamant[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: RESOLUTION REGARDING THE IMPLEMENTATION OF A JUDICIARY Whereas, having further considered the implementation of a judiciary, IT IS THE SENSE OF THE R.A. THAT:[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: 1) The SC should qualify and RA should appoint at least three (two additional) judges.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: 2) There should be at least three Judges to constitute the Board of the Judiciary; once fully constituted the Board should elect one of their number to serve as Chief Judge.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Extropia DaSilva[/b:1qyw3yus]: Somebody wake up Gwyn![/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: Jon, why wasn't it non-binding[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: oh sorry ? I was brewing some tea.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: but empowering the SC to appoint two further judges wd require a Const Amend. I took that to mean 'we, the RA, want Ash to make progress on this, if not, we will intervene'[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: why would it be non-binding?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: yes[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: that 's why it was non-binding[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: read above[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: the RA wanted to give Ash time to get on with it[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: Ok[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: So hmm[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: i suggest we give this ten more mins before moving on[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: Right...[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][i:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn is really a bit confused on what to say.[/i:1qyw3yus][/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: I want to be clear what my position is on all this. Know that I may differ with others.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: But I may well vote on principle in this case.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: Well, my personal position is a mess ? if I publiclly oopose anything related to the JA,[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: it means that by default the judiciary powers fall back to the Dean of the Scientific Council and His Merry Gang[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: *her :)[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: and this would be seen as a move to fall back to the stus quo[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: of times long gone[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: ah yes, hehe[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: also that was a misquote, the band was of Merry Men I think :)[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: lol, I like the Marry Gang better[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: so, which way do u want to vote jon?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][i:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn has to abstain sadly[/i:1qyw3yus][/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][i:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant raises her hand to speak next[/i:1qyw3yus][/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: I think we need to vote to bring all the parties, especially Ash to the negotating table. I am not convinced that just suggesting nicely will work given the history of this sitution.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: We need the commission, but the commission needs to really have the mandate to seriously work out a solution[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: i'd like to avoid any sudden changes to the system before it's had a chance to begin, the external pressure needs to be resisted[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: Jon[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: moon, u wanted to come in on this?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: yes[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: my idea is[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][i:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle listens[/i:1qyw3yus][/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: to propose another JA is not the way to go[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: teh RA has a tool now - teh commission[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: teh commission should be set tasks[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: namely, provide interpretations to points in dispute[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: tehse points should be clearly set[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: sending the comission to work without tasks, and while preparing another JA...[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: I have been trying to proposal that we temporarily suspend the current JA so that we can negotate. And send the powers back (on a short term basis) to the SC and its band of merry persons[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: but jon, the JA *cannot* be suspended. that wd leave us in limbo[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: yes[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: that is why there is an alternative[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: and that is[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: make an aamend to JA[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: Without suspending the JA, Ash will have no reason to negotiate.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: stating that in the following cases, A, B, C[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: these cases being cases in which there is an impediment to fair trial[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: say, teh schedule is past[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: Hmm[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: or you don't have judges (imagien an hypothetic case where all judges are connected to a party)[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: My feeling is that Ash's behavor in this matter is so far off the mark that there is an imdediment in most trials.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: the cases fall automatically on SC[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: hmm, we're at time on this now. do we continue to discuss the JA?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: please, yes[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: i do need to make sure on this[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: because tomorrow i am going to attend RA and must have an opinion defined[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: i think the commission is a good idea, but justices' proposal is too prescrriptive and repeal shd be rejected[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: i am not happy with suspension of JA, i am not happy with incoherence of setting in a new proposal in haste[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: Pat, what are your main concerns in summary?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: in the meantime, let's see what transpires. the RA can set down markers for success but shd refrain from changing anything just yet, its' too soon to judge[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: jon, my main concerns?[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: i think the commission should be allowed a fair opportunity to work freely - and should be set tasks to accomplish[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: Yes, about Justice's proposal for the commission.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: that we make changes too quickly, without having a chance to see this system work in operation. that having taken a well-founded decsion, we allow ourselves to be 'bounced' into making a bad decision.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: exactly[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: my concerns also[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: justices' proposal is too prescriptive and too rushed[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: Ah, but the commission allows you to work on these issues[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: he would have us judge this system on no evidence[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: i wouldn't say a 'bad' decision... but inded dto be bounced[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: Jon[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: for teh commission to work on these issues carefully[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: the time scale has to be reasonable, two weeks is not reasonable[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: tasks should be set[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: and they aren't being discussed so far[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: Well, the RA cannot set tasks.. that would not be possible given our limits.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: the RA CAN set tasks[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: the RA can say:[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: i think moon means the Commission can set the boundaries for discusssion, the terms of the inquiry[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: define an interpretation for Section B, Article 200[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: exactly[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: pinpoint the disputes, and encompass teh discussion towards that goal[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: specially with a 10-day commission[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkOrange:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Jon Seattle[/b:1qyw3yus]: Assume that the resolution of the RA is non-binding. Why would we ever want to have a cheif judge who felt fine ignoring the RA's bills.[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=DarkRed:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Moon Adamant[/b:1qyw3yus]: but why do you assume that?![/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Navy:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1qyw3yus]: well, the judiciary is *supposed* to be independant![/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: Hmm[/color:1qyw3yus]
[color=Indigo:1qyw3yus][b:1qyw3yus]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1qyw3yus]: Yes, like Pat said[/color:1qyw3yus]

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Patroklus Murakami
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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: 'Tis is a hard thing.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkOrange:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Jon Seattle[/b:2jigtv6u]: The judiciary is supposed to be independant in its application of the law. It is not supposed to decide on the boundries or make up new legislation. And it certainly is not supposed to ignore bills.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: Wait[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: i understand why ash' actions have caused concern, but we haven't been taken over yet! i think we can let the system move along, and then we'll know if the judiciary is 'out of control' and then we can propose changes[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: Jon ? and this is coming from someone living under a civil law system,[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: isn't the whole point of having a common law system the co-creation of laws and the way they're applied a shared goal between the legislative and the judiciary?[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: well, the legislature holds all the cards, in the final analysis. they can pass new laws[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: Exactly,[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkRed:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Moon Adamant[/b:2jigtv6u]: yes, indeed[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkOrange:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Jon Seattle[/b:2jigtv6u]: Gwyn, say that is true. Then wouldent it be necessary for the cheif judge to be willing to listen to the judiciary.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: the judiciary can only interpret the existing ones.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkRed:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Moon Adamant[/b:2jigtv6u]: but justly because they can, the RA must be wary of doing that[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: Yes.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkOrange:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Jon Seattle[/b:2jigtv6u]: sorry to the legislature[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkRed:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Moon Adamant[/b:2jigtv6u]: must be cautious[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkRed:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Moon Adamant[/b:2jigtv6u]: otherwise, dangerous precedents can be created[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][i:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn nods at Moon[/i:2jigtv6u][/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkOrange:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Jon Seattle[/b:2jigtv6u]: I see no sign that our new cheif judge in this case is willing to listen to the legislature[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: That was, for me, the biggest change with the new Judiciary ?[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: that we now have to take into account that the RA is not the only one dealing with the laws.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: Formerly, I might be accused of being the person demanding a *strict* separation between legislation and the way it is applied ? thus the old motto: "the SC cannot change laws, just veto them"[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: i think that judicial independence means the chief judge must *not* be swayed by the legislature (or public opinion). he/she must obey the law, but bending to the legislature 's will wd not be right[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: The new judiciary, however, is not bound that way. They can change the *meaning* of the laws, if they're vague enough-[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: 5 mins more ppl[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkOrange:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Jon Seattle[/b:2jigtv6u]: Ah, Pat, only on those issues that the judge has freedom to operate. No, creating their own law is not acceptable.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: yes, agreed[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkRed:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Moon Adamant[/b:2jigtv6u]: but is that happening?[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: i don't think so[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkRed:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Moon Adamant[/b:2jigtv6u]: i would rather that the commission would say that[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkRed:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Moon Adamant[/b:2jigtv6u]: or say the opposite, as it would find it to be[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: i think ash is doing what he was tasked to do[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: I think that Ash *believes* he's doing what he was told to do :)[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkOrange:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Jon Seattle[/b:2jigtv6u]: No, we asked him to do two things and he ignored that bill. You can fall back on "well, he was not strictly required to" but he should have gone on to include more people in his deliberations.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkRed:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Moon Adamant[/b:2jigtv6u]: indeed, i believe teh same[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: hehe, yes. i see there's a difference[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: Wait Jon ?[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: what were the two things?[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkRed:2jigtv6u][i:2jigtv6u]Moon Adamant taps her fingers on teh table[/i:2jigtv6u][/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: 1) get more judges?[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: Well he established the qualification procedures[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: and is reviewing applications[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: What is #2?[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: and more ppl have applied[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: yes, they have[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: 2 mins[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkOrange:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Jon Seattle[/b:2jigtv6u]: Very slowly and in such a way as they were not written in good faith. I believe the qualification procedures are ment to exclude others.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: They might still be black-balled, but that's not the issue *yet*[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: ... and counting![/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: Aaah[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: Well Jon ? but you would agree that would be one of the purposes for the commission to inquire as well?[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkOrange:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Jon Seattle[/b:2jigtv6u]: The second thing was this: 2) There should be at least three Judges to constitute the Board of the Judiciary; once fully constituted the Board should elect one of their number to serve as Chief Judge[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: Ah[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: Well[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkOrange:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Jon Seattle[/b:2jigtv6u]: In other words he should have waited to declare himself chief judge.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: Once the applications are approved, they will be able to elect a Chief Judge[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: well then, the time to intervene is when no judges get appointed, that wd represent a failing of the system[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: So he's Acting Chief Judge.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][i:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn has to second Pat on that[/i:2jigtv6u][/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkRed:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Moon Adamant[/b:2jigtv6u]: seeing as he is the only judge so far[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: we really need to move on folks[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkRed:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Moon Adamant[/b:2jigtv6u]: maybe that's his fault too, that no one applied back then?[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: yes, I had a social event to attend as well, before the SC meeting eheheheh[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: ah good point, Moon[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkRed:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Moon Adamant[/b:2jigtv6u]: i just want to say one thing, Pat[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: k[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: Ash cannot be blamed for not promoting the new JA[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: he did it[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: he did *interviews on the RL media*[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: he got 8 citizens in[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkRed:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Moon Adamant[/b:2jigtv6u]: tomorrow, i am going to go there into that RA and i am going to vote on my conscience and on my good judgement[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkRed:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Moon Adamant[/b:2jigtv6u]: if i come to teh conclusion[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: Now, I'm not defending him ? he can defend himself ? but I think he made all the possible efforts to get more judges, but nobody was willing[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkRed:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Moon Adamant[/b:2jigtv6u]: during the session[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkOrange:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Jon Seattle[/b:2jigtv6u]: I beleve in the forums he has presented himself as cheif judge, not as acting cheif judge.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][i:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn listens to Moon[/i:2jigtv6u][/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkRed:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Moon Adamant[/b:2jigtv6u]: that there isn't a clear interest in taking sufficient steps to deal with this issue[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkRed:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Moon Adamant[/b:2jigtv6u]: i will resign[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkOrange:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Jon Seattle[/b:2jigtv6u]: I will do exactly the same as Moon on this.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: don't do that moon, it would be totally unhelpful. why resign? u haven't done anything wrong.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkRed:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Moon Adamant[/b:2jigtv6u]: Pat[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkRed:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Moon Adamant[/b:2jigtv6u]: i am definetely trying to help here, by suggesting eventual tools that can reinforce the RA in a positive way[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkOrange:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Jon Seattle[/b:2jigtv6u]: Yes, and I agree that the commission is the best way forward.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkRed:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Moon Adamant[/b:2jigtv6u]: that is, by inviting teh popular consultation, and trying to take off teh enmotional weight off the issue[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkOrange:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Jon Seattle[/b:2jigtv6u]: I just disagree that it can work if we assume that the current system will stay in force during the process.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: aaah[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkRed:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Moon Adamant[/b:2jigtv6u]: imposing the power of the RA, creating a precedent of involvement, is a negative way[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: Well, that's another point ? but then, Jon, it would mean that the conclusions of the commission would be set from the beginning![/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkOrange:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Jon Seattle[/b:2jigtv6u]: We have warned Ash with the prior bill and he has not responded.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: but the 'current system' has not even got off the ground yet. what is the basis for suspending it?[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: ie. suspend first, investigate later.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkRed:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Moon Adamant[/b:2jigtv6u]: shoot first and ask questions later[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: Yes. We should have solid grounds to base a suspension on.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: hehe Moonie :)[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkOrange:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Jon Seattle[/b:2jigtv6u]: Because Ash will not have any reason to come to the table in the current situation.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: i think ash *has* responded to the RA concerns. he has tried to get more judges in the system.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: he has produced what was required of him[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkRed:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Moon Adamant[/b:2jigtv6u]: if he won't come to the table after that, then you have other tools[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: Thus, Pat, we can't really say he's acting in "bad faith" during the *whole* process,[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkOrange:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Jon Seattle[/b:2jigtv6u]: Pat, I read his qualifications document. It appears to me he is going everything he can to keep judges out of the system.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: although I also agree that that should be one of the purposes of the commission.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: that's rihg gwyn[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: *right[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: i think there are big problems with 'suspending' the JA. it would appear to be unconstitutional L)[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: :)[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: Very much so, unless the wording was done very carefully[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkOrange:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Jon Seattle[/b:2jigtv6u]: Pat, that may well be. Then we will have to replace it temporarily.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkRed:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Moon Adamant[/b:2jigtv6u]: amend it as proposed[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkRed:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Moon Adamant[/b:2jigtv6u]: after all, teh firt concern should be the right to fair trial[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: well, u wd have to put in place an alternative justice system. it's like the discussions we had over a 'sunset clause', there needs to be certainty for those cases already in the system[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: Yes.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: i move we go to item 3 :)[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: Ah ? and I have to "move" elsewhere. Sorry guys.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkOrange:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Jon Seattle[/b:2jigtv6u]: Lets put off number 3.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: bye gwyn, see u in half an hour[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Extropia DaSilva[/b:2jigtv6u]: You are leaving, Gwyn?[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkOrange:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Jon Seattle[/b:2jigtv6u]: And 4 for that matter.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Indigo:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2jigtv6u]: just have another half hour before the SC meeting, and naturally, you're also invited to attend that.[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkRed:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Moon Adamant[/b:2jigtv6u]: i may go there[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: well, item 3 takes no time. surely no one agrees with this[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Extropia DaSilva[/b:2jigtv6u]: I think I will log in a minute or two. Thank you so much for allowing me to sit and listen:)[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: do we want to postpone discussion on the election?[/color:2jigtv6u]
[color=Navy:2jigtv6u][b:2jigtv6u]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2jigtv6u]: np extropia, glad u could join us[/color:2jigtv6u]

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