Encouraging immigrants

Here you might discuss basically everything.

Moderator: SC Moderators

User avatar
Ashcroft Burnham
Forum Wizard
Forum Wizard
Posts: 1093
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:21 pm

Encouraging immigrants

Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[b:1kfgdxek][u:1kfgdxek]Encouraging immigrants[/b:1kfgdxek][/u:1kfgdxek]

There has been a great deal of discussion of late about the question of requiring people to have been in the CDS for a fixed period of time, say 28 days, before holding any public office here. The thread on which it was most discussed concerned only judges, and has now descended into a debate between Beathan and Michel on the interpretation of US contract law, but the point is of more general importance than in relation to the judiciary.

Our current Public Information Officer came to the CDS just to be a PIO here. A number of people have come to the CDS to be lawyers under our legal system. We have had an unfilled position on the Scientific Council since before I came to what was then simply Neufreistadt in August, the consequence of which is that the constitution and Terms of Service on the main website is months out of date.

If we impose a residency requirement for public office, there are two distinct ways in which that can be harmful to us: (1) it may mean that important offices go unfilled; and (2) it may discourage people from joining.

Taking the second first, it might be quaint to think that everybody joins the CDS because they like the idea of democracy in the abstract, or just want to be a citizen in general, but the reality is that people who may well turn into highly valued citizens do not always think that way. People are more likely to come to SecondLife thiking, "what can I do?", rather than "where can I live?". If we can provide answers to that question, whether it be "be a judge" or "be the Scientific Council archivist", or "be the Public Informaiton Officer", or be any other sort of civil servant that we have yet to invent, then we are likely to encourage more citizens who have a specific interest in doing that sort of thing. It is very unfair to think of people who come here for this reason lesser sort of people (as, disturbingly, Beathan seems to think in one of his multiplicity of posts), who will never become fully involved citizens: SecondLife in general has a way of attracting people to do one thing, and then gently persuading them to do a whole range of other, more social things when they are here. Nobody is going to come and live in the CDS just to decorate our Christmas tree or talk in the thermae, but, nine times out of ten, people who come for something else will, if they end up getting a house here, at least, become part of our social circle. Indeed, as I have posted before, it is no exaggeration to say that about 10% of our current population are here because of our new judicial system: that tells us something about the power of institutions to attract people.

Secondly, as our government grows ever more sophisticated, and acquires more land and other assets to administer, more and more government jobs will need to be filled. We are already seeing that with the Chancellor's office, the judiciary, Gwyneth's Scientific Council reform proposal, and ideas about improving our co-ordination of events handling and management, as well as the multiple estate-owner idea put forward by Pelanor. We already have jobs, most notably, that of Scientific Council archivist, that have remained unfilled for months. One important job, that of Public Information Officer, was not filled except when our present Chancellor managed to draft in somebody whom she knew elsewhere. If she had not been able to do so, we would still probably be without a PIO, with all of the disasterous consequences for Colonia Nova that that would have had. One of our citizens, Zeus Zetkin, is keen on setting up a branch of his SLJobFinder service in the CDS to deal with government jobs. That itself could be a way of encouraging citizens to join us, and of filling important posts at the same time. It is not enough to say that people may do so if they wait 28 days, as, faced with only the possibilities of having to wait 28 days, or not doing it at all, many who would do it without the wait would not bother (and understandably so) if they had to be delayed by a month.

It is hard to see that anything special is achieved by making citizens wait 28 days before they can provide good service to us. There is nothing magic about that number: why should a citizen who has been here 21 days or 14 days be any less qualified to hold public office than one here for 28? In a community as small as ours, and one in which, esepcially given our recent acquisition of Colonia Nova, a significant and increasing proportion of our population themselves have not been here for 28 days, and an even more significant proportion, not much longer than that, the requirement seems arbitrary. Is there any real evidence that people learn in 28 days of just being a citizen what they can't learn in an application process for whatever office it is that they want to fill?

Finally, I realise that we have a 28 day requirement on voting, but that is different: that is to prevent electoral fraud. Because we cannot verify the RL identities of voters, we have the 28 day requirement to prevent a flood of new people (perhaps from franchulates), many of whom might be alts, from innundating our government with votes in order to pull off some sort of coup, as Desmond Shang vividly imagined on one of his many posts in the SLHomepage forums. If we were able to verify who was an alt of whom (as we might be able to do sooner than some may think), we would probably not need even this.

Incidentally, on franchulates, a 28 day requirement for holding public office would be absurd, since that would mean that new people in franchualates would not be able to be part of their own local government for 28 days.

Ashcroft Burnham

Where reason fails, all hope is lost.
Beathan
Forum Wizard
Forum Wizard
Posts: 1364
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:42 pm

Post by Beathan »

Ash --

Excellent points, and very well put. That said, isn't there a legitimate interest of the people who started and have worked so hard on the CDS project, making the CDS what it is, to see that the CDS is not taken away from them by a wave of immigrants who are not familiar with the CDS or its history? I am aware that this criticism has been leveled at me, and I take it very seriously.

As a government simulation, the most vulnerable place for this kind of harm is in governmental offices. I see no lasting harm to any new immigrant in requiring a waiting period for office holding. Legal practice, or other business pactice that conforms to zoning, or other incidents of citizenship, except voting, seem different. These should be available to all citizens. Voting is different because we need to protect ourselves from the possibility of a party importing voters for an election and then having those voters, who never had any intention to stay in the CDS, leave after voting the party into office.

There are important interests on both sides of this debate. We need to balance them. I think we best balance them by imposing a reasonable length of time of citizenship as a condition of office holding. Again, I think such a rule encourages all of us to be citizens first, office seekers second, which is surely a good thing.

Beathan

Let's keep things simple enough to be fair, substantive enough to be effective, and insightful enough to be good.
User avatar
Ashcroft Burnham
Forum Wizard
Forum Wizard
Posts: 1093
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:21 pm

Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Beathan":2g4lfchr]There are important interests on both sides of this debate. We need to balance them. I think we best balance them by imposing a reasonable length of time of citizenship as a condition of office holding. Again, I think such a rule encourages all of us to be citizens first, office seekers second, which is surely a good thing.[/quote:2g4lfchr]

It isn't if people come to SL wanting to do something, but are told that they will have to wait 28 days before they can do it here: in those circumstances, many are likely to go away and do it somewhere else - and not come back.

Ashcroft Burnham

Where reason fails, all hope is lost.
Beathan
Forum Wizard
Forum Wizard
Posts: 1364
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:42 pm

Post by Beathan »

Not if we are the only game in town. We are the only game in town.

Besides, there is plenty for a citizen to do while waiting to earn the respect of the citizenry and be considered (or eligible) for office. I have found myself very busy making waves, friends, and enemies over the last month.

Beathan

Let's keep things simple enough to be fair, substantive enough to be effective, and insightful enough to be good.
Diderot Mirabeau
Master Word Wielder
Master Word Wielder
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Encouraging immigrants

Post by Diderot Mirabeau »

[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":29xi945w]Our current Public Information Officer came to the CDS just to be a PIO here.[/quote:29xi945w]
An interesting example of a case in point. It may be due to my ignorance but who exactly is our present PIO? And what was the last thing he/she did in that capacity?

When I became a citizen I understood that it would be necessary to show my commitment to the project before requesting the trust of the community to work on something important. I notice you did the same.

I also remember that we once had somebody become a citizen in order to be a curator for the Museum of Contemporary Art. This person managed to do effectively nothing except draw a salary for four months after which he resigned and left the city stating that he had become "disenfranchised" with Neufreistadt.

I am sure other examples can be found.

User avatar
Ashcroft Burnham
Forum Wizard
Forum Wizard
Posts: 1093
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:21 pm

Re: Encouraging immigrants

Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Diderot Mirabeau":1td61tno]I am sure other examples can be found.[/quote:1td61tno]

Equally, examples can be found of people who were here right from the beginning whose terms of office were, to put it mildly, turbulent, and who departed on less than good terms. This tells us nothing by itself about the significance of a residency requirement.

Ashcroft Burnham

Where reason fails, all hope is lost.
Diderot Mirabeau
Master Word Wielder
Master Word Wielder
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Encouraging immigrants

Post by Diderot Mirabeau »

[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":3kosqq48]Equally, examples can be found of people who were here right from the beginning whose terms of office were, to put it mildly, turbulent, and who departed on less than good terms. This tells us nothing by itself about the significance of a residency requirement.[/quote:3kosqq48]
Your logical argumentation seems to be slipping. But obviously your preference for going ahead and basing the system on a lot of untested assumptions rather than take one step at a time and learn from the mistakes as a true conservative would do shows itself here. Ceterus paribus the longer a citizen has been in the community the more does the community know of this particular citizen's habits and dispositions. It is therefore more responsible and respectful of the experiences of our history to demand of citizens a period of citizenship before they can serve in the capacity as a government official.

User avatar
Pelanor Eldrich
Veteran debater
Veteran debater
Posts: 246
Joined: Fri May 26, 2006 10:07 am

We're talking about Judges, right?

Post by Pelanor Eldrich »

If we look at the SC, AC (above apprentice), Exec and RA only civil servants under the exec can take jobs without some kind of serious (other than Chancellor approval) scrutiny by multiple members of the community.

Judges now, as I understand it, have the toughest qualification process yet right now without a residency restriction.

Pelanor Eldrich
Principal - Eldrich Financial
User avatar
Fernando Book
Forum Admin
Forum Admin
Posts: 92
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:39 pm

Post by Fernando Book »

I think we can draw a line between two categories of public officers.

First, we have the public officers that exert some power (specially on other people). These include the Chancellor, members of the RA, Judges, members of the PJSP, Treasurer... A common feature is that a person is appointed to the post, and his removal is difficult and is done via impeachment or a popular election. In this cases, I think it's prudent to wait a few weeks before appoint a newcomer.

Second, we have ordinary jobs that can be filled simply by hiring a person, and the removal depends of the end of the contract or the task that is in the origin of the post. In the list of jobs Ashcroft has provided, Scientific Council archivist could fall under this category. I don't have a problem in hiring a newcomer for such posts.

Of course there's a grey zone, in which we can found cabinet-like posts, like the Public Information Officer, or a would-be Chief Architect or so. I would be more comfortable with people with some experience in the CDS, but they should come and go with the authority who has appointed them, and they should have the confidence of their bosses.

Gxeremio Dimsum
Veteran debater
Veteran debater
Posts: 205
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:37 pm

Post by Gxeremio Dimsum »

[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":1ery31cb]It isn't if people come to SL wanting to do something, but are told that they will have to wait 28 days before they can do it here: in those circumstances, many are likely to go away and do it somewhere else - and not come back.[/quote:1ery31cb]

This is true. However, we should be very wary indeed of those who only have time or interest to rule the place, and never to participate in the community.

User avatar
Aliasi Stonebender
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 586
Joined: Fri May 26, 2006 12:58 pm

Post by Aliasi Stonebender »

In the case of our PIO (Nightwind Leonov), he did come specifically to be hired - but as a civil service job under the executive, this does not seem an outrageous thing, especially as I went to the greatest extent to "hire from within" before settling on Nightwind.

That said, while I've tried to be understanding (Nightwind's had RL issues) he has been unable to perform his job as fully as he should, and I have informed him that if the situation does not change very soon, I'll have to replace him. (Although he will likely remain a member of the CDS, if not through his grandfathered microplot, through my own group-owned land.)

Member of the Scientific Council and board moderator.
michelmanen
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 812
Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:53 am

Residency requirements

Post by michelmanen »

The issue here is as follows: how should we treat professionals who decide to move into CDS because we have a need for their skills?

I live in a major city, who two city planners retired. The City interviewed a number of condidates, including a young man who was the city planner for a large city located quite a distance away.

Clearly, that individual would not have moved to our city and left his job without being certain he would have the new position.

On the other hand, we are not asking people to move full-time in-world and give up their iRL occupations... lol

So, I think that each position for which we are thinking to impose a residency requirement must go through an interview process. Part of that process should be meeting with the community and getting to know CDS.

It is not length of time here that counts, because unlike RL, the individual could technically become a citizen and never long on for a month. It is the quality of the interactions with the community.

I, for one, visited NFS quite a bit before joining; I found it to be a pretty deserted town. It's only after about a month or so that I bumped into Ashcroft and started meeting the community and attending the meetings.

So what really counts is the quality of the persons interactions with the community.

1. No residency requirement in the sense that a person must first become a citizen and buy land.

2. An interview process of minimum one week and maximum two.
3. A minimum of 3 meetings with the people the prospective candidate would be working closest with.

4. Attendance at at at last one Saturday morning meeting.

5. A tour of the city of at least one hour with a City reception committee of at least 3 individuals who would show the candidate around town;

6. Attendance at a function organised by us where as many of us as possible would attend and interact with the candidate.

All this can easily take place during the 1 to 2 week interview process.

If the CDS people who are hiring the candidate, and who should have attended all the above events, sign off that the candidate attended all the events listed above and interacted with the rest of the community, then this should satisfy our inculturation concerns. Once the job is offered, if the candidate accepts, he/she becomes a citizen right away.

In other words, let's make inculturation part of the interview process; ensure that it is quality of interations and not length of time that counts; and remove any possibility of having second-class citizens.

Let us remember: these are individuals who skills we need, because we have positions we cannot fill from within. It makes no sense to delay their starting the job by a month. If we make the interactions above part of the interview process, at the end of that process, if the job is offered , the candidate (now appointee) can start right away in his/her position (after, of course, becoming a citien).

Claude Desmoulins
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 730
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 9:28 am

Post by Claude Desmoulins »

Michel, you make a very good point in distinguishing time on the rolls from actual interaction with the community, and I think you're quite right that it's the latter that we want.

Up to this point, citizenship/community membership and employment/office holding have always been distinct. In this sense we're moving into new territory. I agree with Fernando's notion that it matters which job/office one is seeking. I would share his willingness to hire an archivist who was brand new to CDS. On the other hand, just as in RL, I would be highly suspect of someone who moved to my city one week and ran for city council or sought a position as a city judge the next.

Gxeremio Dimsum
Veteran debater
Veteran debater
Posts: 205
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:37 pm

Re: Residency requirements

Post by Gxeremio Dimsum »

[quote="michelmanen":bs60l071]In other words, let's make inculturation part of the interview process; ensure that it is quality of interations and not length of time that counts; and remove any possibility of having second-class citizens.

Let us remember: these are individuals who skills we need, because we have positions we cannot fill from within. It makes no sense to delay their starting the job by a month. If we make the interactions above part of the interview process, at the end of that process, if the job is offered , the candidate (now appointee) can start right away in his/her position (after, of course, becoming a citien).[/quote:bs60l071]

I appreciate the thought you have put into what we're looking for - understanding of the community, ability to work with others, etc. However, I take exception to a few points of your proposal:

1. I for one believe we should have alternate paths to citizenship (other than owning land), as I proposed in my CDS constitution. However, having someone with no financial ties to the community other than receiving a salary (which is a pittance anyhow) does not support the ability to punish them for wrongdoing.

2. I disagree that there are skill sets we desperately need which are not already part of our community. We have talked in several threads about what I perceive as over-professionalization (and subsequent marginalization of non-RL-professionals).

3. A position of public trust, especially in institutions which have not yet developed public trust (i.e. the judiciary, archivists, and Chief Engineer), can not be had merely by working with others in those institutions. Citizens (who they serve, right?) need to have confidence in them.

4. I repeat that our requirements for public service work should not in any case be less than our requirements for voting, which is the fundamental form of participation in a democracy.

5. The speed at which immigration is possible, plus our desire to avoid illegal ex post facto laws, mean that we must be careful about how new community members are assimilated such that we don't find a wave of newcomers seizing control of the assets of the community through elections.

michelmanen
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 812
Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:53 am

Residency requirements

Post by michelmanen »

Claude wrote:

[quote:3w1lqmnm]On the other hand, just as in RL, I would be highly suspect of someone who moved to my city one week and ran for city council or sought a position as a city judge the next.[/quote:3w1lqmnm]

Two issues:

1. Elected positions: as was noted before, it is inconsistent to have a 28-day voting period wait for new citizens, yet be able to stand for office right away. This being said, I think it is utterly wrong to have 2 classes of citizens -even if for only 28 days. Therefore, I think we should have a new category, that of residents, lasting 28 days, and including some minimum iinteraction requirements with the community, upon completion of which the individual becomes a citizen, can vote and can stand for office.

2. Since we appoint judges rather than elect them, we should treat them like all other appointed positions. We are talking here about individuals whose skills we need, because no one in CDS eiher applied for the job or has the required skills. As long as they get through the interview process (including the community interaction requirements) we have achieved more than we could possibly achieve just with a purely time-defined delay of one or even two months. For me, it's the quality and frequency of interactions that are critical in CDS, not the amount of time elapsed since membership (as mentioned, the newbie may long on once or twice only per month and meet strictly no one and still qualify based on time-criteria only).

Post Reply

Return to “General Discussion”