Transcript - Meeting on the 13th Dec, 6 PM SLT

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Justice Soothsayer
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Transcript - Meeting on the 13th Dec, 6 PM SLT

Post by Justice Soothsayer »

Transcript - Meeting on the 13th Dec, 1 PM SLT

Meeting on 2006-12-14
Those present:
Justice Soothsayer is in the chair.
Justice Soothsayer: well, it is 6 pm and here we have the usual suspects
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Justice Soothsayer: I move we adjourn.
Justice Soothsayer: hehe
Beathan Vale: second
Ranma Tardis: yes, I am lost to as the schedule of the meetings or purpose
Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Ranma
Justice Soothsayer: we need to beat the 11 minute public meeting record for shortest meeting.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: the meetings are just to try to give most people a chance to participate,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: so, different times, different days
Ranma Tardis: well I think my point of view is known
Justice Soothsayer: this is the EST to PST-friendly time zone second open public forum.
Beathan Vale: mine too -- ad nauseum apparenly
Ranma Tardis: yes and Ashcroft is so full of it
Ranma Tardis: he talks like a lawyer
Ranma Tardis: 6pm plus 5
Beathan Vale: Hi Dex
Beathan Vale: This is the first meeting dex could make -- we should hear him
Ranma Tardis: next election should be cvlaude and pel
Dexter Leopold: Hello Beathan, et al
Justice Soothsayer: Hi Dex
Ranma Tardis: sure, what the frack
Beathan Vale has indicated consent to be recorded.
Justice Soothsayer: Welcome to the 4th of 4 public hearings on the Judiciary
Dexter Leopold: wow,just in time then
Justice Soothsayer: we have had thousands of words, but are waiting for the perfect solution
Justice Soothsayer: so you are now up!
Beathan Vale: so -- Dex -- that's what we expect you to give us -- start talking
Dexter Leopold: I think those who have read my forum posts, know I don't have that
Justice Soothsayer: but seriously folks,
Ranma Tardis: hmm I dont remember them
Justice Soothsayer: Dex, you are free to take the soapbox and speak uninterrupted for up to 10 minutes.
Beathan Vale: middle of the room
Dexter Leopold: Are we on one particular topic yet, I haven't kept up with the forums since I got off of work
Beathan Vale: no -- any of the questions -- judiicary in general
Justice Soothsayer: it seems that many of the topics mesh together
Multi Gadget v1.49.3 by Timeless Prototype
Justice Soothsayer: so most have been taking them all at once, though some have been guided by the questions.
Justice Soothsayer: found by clicking the banners in the hall
Justice Soothsayer: your choice, really.
Dexter Leopold: Okay, at this point I want to get very practical, most here know my general position on the Code and the JA
Justice Soothsayer: keep in mind you are also speaking for the record,
Dexter Leopold: I want to figure out what to do and where we go
Justice Soothsayer: and please click the recorder on the table to indicate consent
Dexter Leopold: ty Justice, I know
Dexter Leopold has indicated consent to be recorded.
Dexter Leopold: I feel we really need to stick with something, even if it's a Code a fundamentally disagree with, and get the ball rolling
Dexter Leopold: I think we are clearly at a point where both sides have firm in their opinions, and nothing will get done without putting it into practice
Dexter Leopold: I could rehash all my arguments against the current Code and in support of the former, but I really don't like hearing me repeat myself
Gwyneth Llewelyn has indicated consent to be recorded.
Dexter Leopold: I have noticed many, from both sides of the table, state that we can't judge something without trying it out
Dexter Leopold: and that generally, I agree with
Dexter Leopold: I feel the current Code has far too many gaps, and I firmly believe they will be revealed in time
Dexter Leopold: however, I see no reason why the entire JA must fall for that, and I'm still waiting for a good reason for those who believe it must
Dexter Leopold: and I'm confident I'll hear some of those arguments shortly
Beathan Vale: nope --
Beathan Vale: I've already talked too much ;-)
Justice Soothsayer: well, maybe not from the present crowd...
Dexter Leopold: I feel I have as well Beathan
Beathan Vale: I even said that I would not launch a chimp on hydrogen into space on this lead zepplin
Justice Soothsayer: Dex, I'm passing you two possible ballots for the commission discussed earlier today
Dexter Leopold: darn, I was looking forward to witnessing that
Beathan Vale: well -- the transcripts are available ;-)
Justice Soothsayer: i'd be glad to hear your comments on each - they were distributed at the 1 pm meeting
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... and at 2:30 we were still arguing about them :)
Dexter Leopold: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So feel free to take your time :) :)
Dexter Leopold: thank you Justice
Dexter Leopold is reading, so please talk
Ranma Tardis: well I am talked out
Beathan Vale: Gwyn - final version
Justice Soothsayer: me too
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh BEathan, that one is even meaner :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "A Copybot is available to clone Ashcroft for said purpose"
Beathan Vale: but I got to work in a Copybot reference
Gwyneth Llewelyn: how appropriate!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes :D
Justice Soothsayer: but well within guidelines of civility
Ranma Tardis: oh you have meet the 1sgt of my unit?
Ranma Tardis: mean asshole
Ranma Tardis: pitty the troops under him
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :P
Justice Soothsayer: meanwhile, anybody have any good ideas as to how we got about giving meaningful input to the RA on all of this?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the next step, Beathan, is to write a webcomic strip called "The Daily Ashcroftian" ;)
Dexter Leopold: sledgehammer
Dexter Leopold: jk
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Meaningful... hmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn *scratches head* and thinks a bit
Justice Soothsayer: I feel like the politician in the days of the debate over prohibition
Justice Soothsayer: "Some of my friends are fer it, and some of my friends are agin it"
Beathan Vale: but -- if we don't ban alcohol -- the Irish will keep coming, Dammit
Justice Soothsayer: "...and I always stand behind my friends".
Ranma Tardis: oh the us senate might not change hands
Beathan Vale: something like that?
Dexter Leopold: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe that's a great one, Justice :)
Beathan Vale: Excellent Justice
Justice Soothsayer: in other ways, I feel like I am co-chairing the Iraq Study Group.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly my feelings.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh my
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
Beathan Vale: Oh -- Rove's plot to whack the Sen Johnson failed?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: if *this* works out,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: you might cite us as a Case Study :)
Justice Soothsayer: is this our exit strategy?
Beathan Vale: Well -- as long as we aren't hurried
Beathan Vale: I'd hate to see us rush out of a mess we rushed into
Ranma Tardis: he recovered, tough luck to the republicans
Ranma Tardis: loosers
Beathan Vale: my cable is crashing -- and I have a cable modem -- so I might lose y'all soon
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oops
Dexter Leopold: no, that's just me Beathan
Dexter Leopold: pulling at the chords
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I wouldn't like to see us "rushing" out
Gwyneth Llewelyn: but we certainly didn't "rush in" hehe ? not after 4 months of talking!
Beathan Vale: OK -- fair enough
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Still, as I usually say in these cases, we took a year for setting a sim up, and 10 months to discuss franchulates...
Beathan Vale: 4 months is something like -- what -- 17 RL years ?
Ranma Tardis: no rush for people to join us
Beathan Vale: and that would make me -- hmmm -- a ten year old?
Dexter Leopold: sounds about right
Dexter Leopold: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Ranma Tardis: well think the cds is as large as possible
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd say the CDS grows, but painfully slowly.
Ranma Tardis: there will not be a 3rd sim
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why do you say that??
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We're almost full here
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and we've not even did our "launch party" for the 2nd sim!
Ranma Tardis: well the goverment is driving away residents as fast as attracting them
Beathan Vale: no -- if you build it, they will come -- poor saps
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Beathan
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And hmm Ranma
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that was always the case.
Ranma Tardis: 2 marginal sims
Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is SL :)
Justice Soothsayer: really, gwyn, I thought the Commission WAS the launch party?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We had perhaps 150 or so people in the CDS,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: but never than more than 60 at a time.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Justice!
Ranma Tardis: not anymore
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's actually a scary thought, though!
Justice Soothsayer: 5, 4, 3, 2, wait, wait, let's talk about the procedure for voting about voting before we decide to lift off.
Justice Soothsayer: sorry, a little frustration with retail democracy talking.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
Ranma Tardis: well the harder Ashcroft squueces the more citizens will slip through his fingers
Dexter Leopold: Do we on record knowledge of one citizen who left because of Ashcroft? I'm not aware of that
Dexter Leopold: have knowledge

Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, i was wondering about that.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don't
Ranma Tardis: well I am on the borderline
Ranma Tardis: illegal to threaten
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Many are, Ranma, but we don't really know how many will leave because of Ashcroft.
Justice Soothsayer: not anymore, Ranma
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: not any more :)
Ranma Tardis: he will be the straw
Justice Soothsayer: The provision that made it illegal to threathen to leave was dropped by a bill...
Justice Soothsayer: written by Ashcroft.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unless the JA gets repealed :)
Beathan Vale: LOL
Ranma Tardis: oh right
Beathan Vale: cool
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then, hah! the SC shall be ruthless
Ranma Tardis: the hush Banocraft law
Beathan Vale: I love that
Justice Soothsayer: One of the good things the JA did for us
Justice Soothsayer: Some of the others include theMArshals of the Peace
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree... :)
Beathan Vale: Banish everyone who threatens to leave -- that'll show them
Justice Soothsayer: definition of citizenship
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Beathan ? yes, that was the funny bit :)
Ranma Tardis: well you can have my 6 dollars
Justice Soothsayer: and even cleaning up the name of the Constitution.
Beathan Vale: yes -- the JA has many good parts -- which should have been separate bills
Beathan Vale: it
Justice Soothsayer: well, ranma, for most of us it is about a lot more than the money (or Lindens)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That was Justice's original purpose, actually, Beathan.
Beathan Vale: it's like Wagner's music -- some brilliant moments -- but some horrible half hours
Justice Soothsayer: it is the time, energy, and spirit of the place.
Dexter Leopold: I agree, but I'll still take the 6 bucks
Dexter Leopold: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: pfft Dexter :)
Ranma Tardis: well the money is the last measure
Ranma Tardis: when all else fails
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Should we bribe Ashcroft, then? ;)
Dexter Leopold: The natural outcome in a democracy is that voices will be heard, and some will agitate and some we'll agree with
Beathan Vale: We should promote him to the SC -- see if that changes his outlook
Beathan Vale: Can I nominate him?
Ranma Tardis: perhaps, I was put down by all before the Judicary act passed
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can't comment on that, Beathan ;)
Ranma Tardis: was told how great it was and how wrong I was
Ranma Tardis: have to say, "I told you so"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tsk Ranma, that's unfair.
Dexter Leopold: Well I don't agree with your opinion on the JA, nor was a here then to put you down, so I deflect your "I told you so"
Dexter Leopold: hehe
Ranma Tardis: this is politics
Justice Soothsayer: so, dex, have you had a chance to read the notecards, and do you have any comments?
Ranma Tardis: I would vote for #1
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, I mean ? saying "I told you so" about this never working,
Beathan Vale: I think we should use mine
Gwyneth Llewelyn: when it was not even *tested*,
Beathan Vale: '-
Justice Soothsayer: or at least the part of the community that cares enough to either post on the forums or come to an open meeting, or both.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well yes, good point, Justice.
Justice Soothsayer: It is clear to me at least that the opinion of that community is divided.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: At least it was fair to say that the fragmentation is in four major groups:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: - the "bury it" group
Jon Seattle: yes, it is Justice
Gwyneth Llewelyn: - the "keep it" group
Justice Soothsayer: It makes sense to take (and report) on a straw poll as to how those divisions break out.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: - the "compromise" group
Beathan Vale: I prefer to call us the "burn it" group
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and the group that did not participate at all :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (ie. the majority hehe)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Justice.
Justice Soothsayer: then there is the "talk some more" group.
Justice Soothsayer: Indeed, "talking more" seems to have a majority, in the sense that there is a lot of talking going on.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Even if it might not be *very* consistent, ie. some of these groups have just 2-3 people :D
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And Justice ? that was the "compromise" group.
Justice Soothsayer: ok
Beathan Vale: but - I think I am the only burn it person on the commission -- so I will settle for meaningful talk
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The ones willing to make changes, by discussing it further.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: no no Beathan
Gwyneth Llewelyn: there are more!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: At the very least, Ranma
Jon Seattle: Shall we start by polling ourselves?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: is she still here?
Gwyneth Llewelyn looks around
Dexter Leopold: no
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah she left
Pelanor Eldrich: I'm about to form the Beathan Vale Option 5 scripted rock/paper/scissors w/Guillotine scripted object group.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Pel :D
Dexter Leopold: lol
Justice Soothsayer: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: or gladiator fights to the death perhaps? :)
Beathan Vale: no -- guillotines are messy and too French
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just to keep "in theme"
Pelanor Eldrich: It's be very apocalypto. We'll call it the Oracle or somethin.
Beathan Vale: I'm an American chauvinist -- remember
Jon Seattle: So, four options: keep, amend, amend + suspend, and repeal.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh I like that ? Oracle!
Beathan Vale: Jon -- yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Jon
Gwyneth Llewelyn: wow ? will we even agree on that??
Gwyneth Llewelyn is very surprised!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: pelanor ? please disagree with Jon's 4 options :)
Jon Seattle: I would vote to amend. I think we can do it quickly. The replacement procedures can be kept in place as we do it.
Rig Mainline: ooo, a dragon!
Pelanor Eldrich: Heads rolling down the pyramid. The ADR will be Russian roulette. See then certainly avatars will work out problems amongst themselves.
Beathan Vale: No -- i think Ash is opposed to even considering a suspend option
Aliasi Stonebender: ayuh
Beathan Vale: Hi Ali
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hello, Dragon Chancellor :)
Jon Seattle: Hi Alisi
Justice Soothsayer: suspend comes with, well, suspenders. We would have to provide some alternative system in the meanwhile (back to SC for any disputes) for it to be legitimate.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed.
Beathan Vale: agreed
Justice Soothsayer: so "amend + suspend" must be read to include suspenders.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's why I personally will vote for "amend" (since that means Justice's 6 Rules for the Code of Procedures will be in effect, but the RA may still review lots of things in the mean time)
Justice Soothsayer: while we figure out the amend part.
Michel Manen: i think limiting choices to one word slogans is too simple
Aliasi Stonebender: (Pardon folks, someone wants to set something up in NFS...)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's good news, Aliasi
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah btw
Beathan Vale: I am willing to vote for any option except the keep it one -- and want to be able to cast 3 yes and 1 no
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I got a complaint,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oops
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aliasi left :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Beathan :)
Jon Seattle: Beathan, what if you could express your first and second choice.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well ? the truth is, there is nothing in the CDS that really is a "keep it" option, the RA is always entitled to change *everything*
Jon Seattle: we all could.
Beathan Vale: That would work -- let's prioritize and count votes
Beathan Vale: that would work well
Jon Seattle: yes!
Beathan Vale: lowest vote total wins -- ranked 1 to 4
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
Justice Soothsayer: we'll report all the numbers
Gwyneth Llewelyn: so 1 is "like more" and 4 "like less"?
Beathan Vale: yes -- golf style voting
Michel Manen: i did not send Claude an IM. so i should abstain..
Gwyneth Llewelyn sadly never played golf
Beathan Vale: Michel -- you are on the commission officially
Justice Soothsayer: votes of the commission are asynchronous by statute
Beathan Vale: I don't think we should hang on formality -- although I would like you to abstain ;-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Justice Soothsayer: no need to do them in meetings when all are present due to time zone issues.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Did you IM either Justice or Moon, Michel?
Michel Manen: no, sorry
Beathan Vale: weird
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I agree totally, Justice. Hmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I wonder if there is a way to create a poll in the forum,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that is just available for a few...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That doesn't work,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: the forum polls don't give this type of rankings
Beathan Vale: vote by private message to Moon?
Justice Soothsayer: I trust Moon to count votes and keep them secret.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok
Jon Seattle: While this is true, straw polls can also be useful
Gwyneth Llewelyn agrees :)
Justice Soothsayer: If she doesn't, then Ash will have his first case!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :-D
Michel Manen: im sorry i missed this,,,, did u decide on the question(s)?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... but only if someone files a suit against her :)

Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah
Beathan Vale: then again -- why should the commissions votes be secret -- why not public, like RA votes
Justice Soothsayer: anyone can file a dissenting opinion which would be public
Jon Seattle: the four options: keep, amend, amend + suspend, repeal with priorities.
Jon Seattle: second round people suggest and we vote on specific amendment types.
Justice Soothsayer: if amend or amend+suspend get a majority?
Beathan Vale: Jon -- excellent process proposal
Beathan Vale: well -- I wouldn't say "majority" I would say "most favored"
Gwyneth Llewelyn definitely likes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that.
Justice Soothsayer: right, beathan's phrase.
Michel Manen: well how cn people vote without knowing what the amendments will be?
Michel Manen: its all theoretical
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, good point .D
Beathan Vale: if they are worried -- vote to repeal
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just the "will to amend" :)
Justice Soothsayer: amend means you want to change - then we'll discuss the possible changes.
Michel Manen: thats just not acceptable
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm
Michel Manen: if i may
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I see your point, Michel
Pelanor Eldrich hums the smurf song. La la lalala la la la la la...
Justice Soothsayer: keep in mind, this is about what you think the RA should do, as early as Saturday.
Beathan Vale: why not -- if most people want the thing amended-- then we know that we need to discuss how to amend it
Michel Manen: i have lived through 4 referendums in CAnada
Jon Seattle: We need to find a practial way to do this. Just throwing up our hands and going home is not acceptable either.
Michel Manen: 2 for Quebec independence
Beathan Vale: if most people want to keep it as is, or to repeal it -- then we know that we don't need to talk about that
Michel Manen: 2 for major constitutional reform
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Imagine that the amendment is: "abolish the PJSP and the right to impeach any judge" :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: People would vote for "amend" thinking that it'll promise a different thing altogether...
Pelanor Eldrich: /Preston Manning shouts Refooooorm!
Michel Manen: the question must be clear and specific, not theortical and open ended
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh and we were doing so well thus far :)
Beathan Vale: no - we must start open ended
Justice Soothsayer: I think the first question is "Do you think the RA should do nothing"?
Michel Manen: thats no way to use a poll to justify any decision taken afterwards
Beathan Vale: otherwise we are drafting legislation, not recommending things to the RA or showing political wll
Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is indeed a difference,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: between a referendum
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and a simple recommendation to the RA
Beathan Vale: yep yep
Michel Manen: not in its implications
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that "too vague" questions are definitely not appropriate for referenda,
Pelanor Eldrich in an effort to placate the Oracle sacrifices Ashcroft to the holy trinity of the Rock, the Paper and the Scissors.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: but telling the RA: "we wish to discuss this further, we have too many open issues"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: is perhaps not so unreasonable.
Justice Soothsayer: and telling the RA what to do, or what not to do, in the meantime, would also be reasonable.
Jon Seattle: What I am suggesting is that the votes on the two rounds are not contingent. You can vote on amendments even if you, for example, vote to repeal.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, I would think as much
Beathan Vale: Jon -- yes
Michel Manen: well, i have said my opinon; i am sure in your wisdon you will decide the right thing to so. since this is my second meeting today and I cannot vote, i shall beg for your indulgence and be excused. ;)
Beathan Vale: And if you don't want to amend or repeal -- you can vote against any specific amendment
Gwyneth Llewelyn: no no Michel,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: your feedback was most important,
Michel Manen: looks ar Gwyn
Beathan Vale: Thus, if there is some general will to amend -- but no support for any given amendment -- we get a backdoor "stay the course"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: since the COmission has also some reputation to maintain towards the public :)
Justice Soothsayer: ah, Moon returns.
Moon Adamant: hello everyone
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Great ? welcome, Moonie :)
Beathan Vale: Hi Moon
Jon Seattle hugs Moon
Beathan Vale: here's a third optiopn
Moon Adamant: just finished all i could do so far... have to work more in 2 hours though
Justice Soothsayer: jumping on soapbox for a munite
: Justice Soothsayer is on the soapbox now!
Justice Soothsayer: minute, even
Justice Soothsayer: This Commission is a creature of the RA - it is to give advice to the RA.
Beathan Vale: hear hear
: Shhh...
Justice Soothsayer: Out of fortunate happenstance, we have 4 RA members present.
Justice Soothsayer: Jon has suggested that we poll the Commission members with 4 options: keep the Judiciary Act, amend it, amend it (and suspend it while we discuss amendments), or repeal it.
Justice Soothsayer: If one of those garners the most support, then...
Pelanor Eldrich: I IMed Claude, so I'm on the Commission, right?
: Shhh...
Justice Soothsayer: if it is keep or repeal, our work is done.
Michel Manen: If i may, since Moon is here, can you accept my presence as notice of intention instead of the IM i neglected to send you so I can bote?
: Shhh...
Justice Soothsayer: if amend or amend+suspend gets the most support, then we would ask for more time to make further recommendations on precisely what amendments to offer.
Justice Soothsayer: But if my RA colleagues agree, those are the questions that I would put to the commission tomorrow.
: The soapbox is now free
Jon Seattle: Well, I would like a bit more information.
Jon Seattle: In particular, even if the mjority votes to repeal or keep as is, I still would like votes on potential amendments.
Justice Soothsayer: ok, but i think that will take longer than between now and 4 am Saturday, as the range of potential issues is large.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye.
Jon Seattle: So two rounds, 1. keep / amend / amend + suspend / repeal. Round 2. Amenedments organized by agenda question.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok
Justice Soothsayer: Right.
Michel Manen: but amend and suspend is very differnt from just suspend.. it has serious implications for the entire judiciary.
Jon Seattle: Michel, do you insist that this be perfect?
Justice Soothsayer: I am sure the "amend" part would take some time. Colonia Nova wasn't built in a day.
Moon Adamant: :D
Michel Manen: not at all.
Dexter Leopold chuckles at Justice's reference
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :) :)
Beathan Vale: No -- not perfect -- just not workable in any way that changes the Act
Michel Manen: but to asume that just because amend and suspend may get a majority the entire system must revert to before..... this is not acceptable
Michel Manen: its tantamount to repeal
Jon Seattle: Look folks, as an RA member, I really need this information.
Gwyneth Llewelyn *scratches head*
Justice Soothsayer: no, not at all, michel.
Jon Seattle: there is no point in dragging your feet.
Michel Manen: in fact, it is repeal inall btu name
Beathan Vale: As a supporter of repeal -- I think suspend and amend is a far cry from repeal
Beathan Vale: repeal ends this nightmare -- suspend and amend merely delays it a night or two
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "a night or two" hehe
Dexter Leopold: I think the idea is to at least give us some system, allow something to exist, while we figure out what we should be really doing
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd say, "a month or two" at the very least...
Justice Soothsayer: suspend and amend means Stop! We may change direction, we may not, but Stop while we decide.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's what I understood as well.
Justice Soothsayer: We may continue on the same path, after "due deliberation".
Beathan Vale: And stop does nor necessarily mean no -- no means no -- stop might must mean, let me get my toys from my bedstand
Michel Manen: no, not when the JA was approved by the RA already
Justice Soothsayer: Not that I am necessarily advovating for suspent + amend.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: welcome back, Pel :D
Jon Seattle: Lets vote on my proposal for voting. (Yes, a meta-question)
Beathan Vale: Yes to the double process and the four questions
Justice Soothsayer: so, RA members - does Jon's plan for voting make sense - two rounds, first one with the 4 questions, then 2nd round on possible amendments?
Justice Soothsayer: I say yes.
Jon Seattle: I say yes.
Jon Seattle: :)
Justice Soothsayer: Pel? Moon?
Moon Adamant: yes indeed
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye, of course.
Gwyneth Llewelyn reminds herself she's not an RA member
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I thought this was for the *comission?
Beathan Vale: So -- why do we each matzah, why bitter herbs, why dip foods, and why sleep with a pillow
Beathan Vale: those are the 4 questions, right?
Justice Soothsayer: my question was just an informal poll of RA members present on Jon's proposal.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, ok
Pelanor Eldrich: Yes, i guess it's ok.
Justice Soothsayer: Apparently Pel votes for matzoh.
Jon Seattle: Okay, so the RA members here agree on the process.
Pelanor Eldrich: As long as it's kosher.
Beathan Vale: Yeah -- consensus at last --
Beathan Vale: and some people doubt the work of this commission
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The RA members are uncannily good at consensus ;)
Dexter Leopold: I've noticed that
Beathan Vale: true -- its unnerving
Justice Soothsayer: Jon, please take the lead on formulating the 4 questions for the first round
Justice Soothsayer: and I'll note that we are of different factions!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Months of practice. Literally.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Beathan Vale: that's pragmatism for you
Gwyneth Llewelyn: or social democracy ;)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Pelanor Eldrich: Beathan support the DPU!
Jon Seattle: Okay -- though I think your formulation will do. We will ask people to rank their preference.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ROFL
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that was a good one, Pel :)
Michel Manen: Well i think this will provide an erroneous and superficial visin of what our options are and their consequences
Beathan Vale: Pel -- I intend to -- in a unity government with the Simpletons
Michel Manen: it is de facto repeal
Justice Soothsayer: I want to get out the questions to everyone ASAP, results to Moon by end of day tomorrow.
Pelanor Eldrich: We pragmatics stick together. Long live the DPU tri-partisan alliance!
Beathan Vale: yep yep
Justice Soothsayer: And anyone is free to add their individual (or collective) opinions too.
Dexter Leopold: Has someone compiled an official list of members?
Jon Seattle: Michel, sometimes you just have to go with a slightly impractical procedure. There is is. The perfect vs the good enough.
Moon Adamant: i have
Justice Soothsayer: Claude is the official repository of membersip, and has copied Moon & me on that.
Pelanor Eldrich: Michel, you're still the Manen in my book.
Justice Soothsayer: *membership
Jon Seattle: *slightly imperfect
Michel Manen: this is not good enough.. It has the potential to turn to disaster
Jon Seattle: sorry, very tired.
Dexter Leopold: I thought I was on, but now I'm not sure, I emailed Claude about 4 days ago but heard nothing
Justice Soothsayer: members sipping comes later.
Michel Manen: Sorry to play the Casandra here
Dexter Leopold: sorry, IM'ed Claude
Michel Manen: i dont mean to
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well ? this is really just an "advisory" commission, Michel
Beathan Vale: Michel -- I think that is like saying we are going to spill milk in the hurricane that is tearing our roof off
Justice Soothsayer: and we have 4 of the 5 who are seeking advice here tonight.
Pelanor Eldrich: It's just a vote. I don't feel 100% bound to it when I vote in the RA.
Michel Manen: if the Commision has a popular vote in one direction
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, i was just going to add that
Dexter Leopold: hmmmm
Michel Manen: it will be very hard not to follow it

Jon Seattle: I am going to have to go.. I have to call my sister
Michel Manen: and if that vote is based on a superifical understanding
Beathan Vale: well -- that's kind of what a recommendation is supposed to be like
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The RA can simply say: "welllllll ok, the COmission advised us to do X, but they're a bunch of uninformed morons, so we'll do Y instead" :)
Michel Manen: of the consequences
Michel Manen: it will be a disaster
Beathan Vale: we have no real authority -- the RA does
Pelanor Eldrich: I'm voting my conscience on this stuff.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly
Dexter Leopold: of course Beathan in theory, but I fear a rubber stamp on this
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You still have one, Pel? :)
Beathan Vale: Dexter - no there will be no rubber stamp
Michel Manen: as a non -voting member, i shall now leave. sorry to be overbearing.
Justice Soothsayer: after thousands of words of testimony, and many thousands more words on the forums, I think the RA has a fairly good idea of the detailed basis for everyone's opinons - at least those who have spoken up.
Jon Seattle: Michel, we have been around for a bit, for much of that time had only the SC as a judiciary. The sky will not fall!
Pelanor Eldrich: Let us say, generously, that I didn't exactly follow the party line last meeting. ;)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Did we just lose Michel?
Dexter Leopold: I do believe
Justice Soothsayer: anyone else want to say anything for the record?
Pelanor Eldrich: Sure.
Pelanor Eldrich: You want soapbox?
Beathan Vale: yes -- he had to leave some time ago -- only stayed around to prognosticate doom ;-)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: When will the vote be recorded?
Moon Adamant: before that
Dexter Leopold: Yes, how in the heck do I know if I made it on the member list?
Moon Adamant: let me say goodnight to everyone
Pelanor Eldrich: I think you can assume you're on Dex.
Dexter Leopold is never comfortable with assumptions : )
Moon Adamant: Justice, thanks for chairing
Moon Adamant: and thanks everyone
Pelanor Eldrich: Thx Moon.
Dexter Leopold: ty Moon
Beathan Vale: Goodnight Moon
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you to both of you!
Beathan Vale: That was a great book I had as a kid
Beathan Vale: Goodnight Moon I mean
Jon Seattle: Thanks everyone and goodnight
Soapbox: Pelanor Eldrich is on the soapbox now!
Pelanor Eldrich: Friends, Democras, Citizens!
Pelanor Eldrich: *crats
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh
Soapbox: Shhh...
Pelanor Eldrich: This is the most important thing done in SL, in my opinion.
Pelanor Eldrich: We have an opportunity here to change AR and dispute resolution SL wide, and possibly beyond.
Pelanor Eldrich: We could be a model for VW dispute resolution, International law and and ODR.
Pelanor Eldrich: Or we could more likely fractionate and this whole thing will turn to shit.
Pelanor Eldrich: What's it gonna be?
Beathan Vale: well -- can we get things right first?
Soapbox: Shhh...


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