Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1
Region: Colonia Nova (246528, 250112)
Local-Position: (14, 165, 41)
Meeting on 2006-12-15
Those present:
Justice Soothsayer is in the chair.
Justice Soothsayer: checking
Justice Soothsayer: hmm. no incoming
Michel Manen: hi Dexter
Dexter Leopold: hello Michel : )
Michel Manen: May I join you?
Dexter Leopold: please
Justice Soothsayer: hi Ludo, Michel
Michel Manen: Hi Justice
Ludo Merit: Ave, Justice
Michel Manen: Hi Moon
Moon Adamant: hi Michel
Moon Adamant: oh
Moon Adamant: hmmm Justice
Ranma Tardis: hello
Justice Soothsayer: hi Ranma
Moon Adamant: let me see if i can copy it into a mail
Moon Adamant: and hi ranma
Ranma Tardis: tried out the baths today at great risk to myself
Justice Soothsayer: you look nice and clean, Ranma
Ranma Tardis: thanks 
Ludo Merit: The baths are greatly risky?
Ranma Tardis: the consitution on the wiki is incorrect
Justice Soothsayer: i thought publius was updating it?
Ranma Tardis: someone has placed an unauthorized change in it
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Hi, is this a public/open hearing?
Justice Soothsayer: c;mon in Top.
TOPGenosse Brouwer: OK
Ranma Tardis: changing the consitition is a offensive, only the ra can change the consitution
Justice Soothsayer: moon, just got your email
Justice Soothsayer: not sure I understand it, though.
Moon Adamant: well, hmmm
Moon Adamant: i registered down teh votes, that's the first part
Justice Soothsayer: Let me ask a couple of questions:
Justice Soothsayer: first, it appears 14 members of the commission voted, right?
Moon Adamant: let me recheck
Justice Soothsayer: out of how many members?
Moon Adamant: 14, correct
Moon Adamant: our of 17
Moon Adamant: here, that is the list so far of members and the x marks a vote received
Moon Adamant: btw, i am asking gwyn to make us a ballot box
Justice Soothsayer: Option #1 was the "Do nothing" option
Justice Soothsayer: in other words, don't amend or repeal
Moon Adamant: i don't think we will have it on time for us, but maybe future commissions can use it
Moon Adamant: votes for Do Nothing:
Ranma Tardis has indicated consent to be recorded.
Justice Soothsayer: 4 people voted that as their first choice, 4 as their 2nd choice, 1 as the third choice, and 5 as the fourth choice, right?
Moon Adamant: hmmm
Ludo Merit has indicated consent to be recorded.
Moon Adamant: 4 people raanked it as 1st choice
Ludo Merit: There's a list of the vote somewhere?
Justice Soothsayer: Moon is compiling it
Moon Adamant: 1 as their 2nd choice
Moon Adamant: and 9 as their 4th choice
Moon Adamant: (nest time lets use ABCD for teh options, lol)
Justice Soothsayer: lol
Moon Adamant is not a mathematical person
Justice Soothsayer: hang on
Justice Soothsayer: let's start over again
Moon Adamant: lol, yes
Justice Soothsayer: OK, starting over.
Justice Soothsayer: Option 1: "No changes to Judiciary Act".
Justice Soothsayer: How many ranked that as their first choice?
Moon Adamant: 4 people
Justice Soothsayer: How many ranked that as their 2nd choice?
Moon Adamant: 1 person
Justice Soothsayer: How many ranked that as their 3d choice?
Moon Adamant: none
Justice Soothsayer: How many ranked it as their 4th choice?
Moon Adamant: 9
Moon Adamant: wait
Dexter Leopold has indicated consent to be recorded.
Moon Adamant: no correct
Moon Adamant: 4+1+9=14 
Dexter Leopold: bingo
Dexter Leopold: hehe
Moon Adamant: lol
Michel Manen: loll
Justice Soothsayer: ok
TOPGenosse Brouwer:
Justice Soothsayer: Now, Option #2
Moon Adamant: nods
Justice Soothsayer: "Amend the Judiciary Act"
Justice Soothsayer: How many had that as their first choice?
Moon Adamant: 4 people ranked it 1st
Justice Soothsayer: How many had it as their 2nd choice?
Moon Adamant: 6 people ranked it 2nd
Justice Soothsayer: How many had it for their 3d choice?
Moon Adamant: 4 people ranked it 3rd
Justice Soothsayer: how many had it as their 4th and last choice?
Moon Adamant: none did
Justice Soothsayer: OK, option 3
Moon Adamant: 4+6+4=14
Justice Soothsayer: Suspend the Judiciary Act while considering amendments
Justice Soothsayer: How many had that as their 1st choice?
Moon Adamant: 1 person did
Justice Soothsayer: How many had that as their 2nd choice?
Moon Adamant: 7 did
Justice Soothsayer: How many had that as their 3d choice?
Moon Adamant: 6 people
Justice Soothsayer: How many had that as their last choice?
Moon Adamant: and none as last choice
Justice Soothsayer: Option 4: Repeal
Moon Adamant: 1+7+6=14
Justice Soothsayer: How many had that as their first choice?
Moon Adamant: 5 people did
Justice Soothsayer: How many had that as their 2nd choice?
Moon Adamant: none
Justice Soothsayer: How many had that as their 3rd choice?
Moon Adamant: 4
Justice Soothsayer: How many had that as their last choice?
Moon Adamant: 4
Justice Soothsayer just loves data
Moon Adamant: on this point
Moon Adamant: one of the members specifically did not rank it
Justice Soothsayer: OK
Justice Soothsayer: so total is 13?
Moon Adamant: i checked if it had been an omission, but it was deliberate
Moon Adamant: yes, on this point we have 13 votes
Justice Soothsayer: no hanging chads here
Dexter Leopold: lol
Moon Adamant: let me try and upload a jpeg
Justice Soothsayer: wait, moon
Moon Adamant: /m ewaits .)
Justice Soothsayer: the table is most confusing
Moon Adamant: lol
Moon Adamant: mea culpa
Justice Soothsayer: we need to label the choices first
Justice Soothsayer: np
Justice Soothsayer: that's why I took it step by step for the transcript.
Justice Soothsayer: OK, all you data crunchers out there, what do you make of it?
Moon Adamant: ok, i can label them
Ludo Merit: Working on it
Justice Soothsayer: one things jumps out at me - a stark divide as to Repeal. 9 ranked it 1st, 4 ranked it last, no one in the middle.
Dexter Leopold: 9 ranked "repeal" first?
Michel Manen: 9 ?
Dexter Leopold does not follow that
Michel Manen: more like 5
Ludo Merit: Only five ranked repeal first.
Dexter Leopold: 4 + 4 + 1 + 5 = 14
Justice Soothsayer: oops, sorry, reading table upside down, lol
Moon Adamant: no lol
Dexter Leopold: that's how gov't officials get killed Justice!!
Dexter Leopold: lol, jk
Justice Soothsayer: 9 ranked "keep it" last
Ludo Merit: Taking a weighted vote, counting 4 for each first choice, 3 for each second, two for each third and one for each fourth, I get the following results.
Justice Soothsayer: ah, we do have a data cruncher out there!
Ludo Merit: Do nothing 28, amend 42, suspend 21, repeal 27.
Moon Adamant: ah let me tp Gwyn
Dexter Leopold: fascinating work Ludo : )
Ludo Merit: Somebody check my math.
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Hello Gwyn
Justice Soothsayer sees the Excel files being created
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi all
Dexter Leopold: hello Gwyn
Justice Soothsayer: Hi Gwyn
Michel Manen: Hello 
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hello Michel
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I've heard that counting votes has been specially hard...
Moon Adamant: afk while i do the jpeg
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yay, we even get JPEGs
TOPGenosse Brouwer: woof
Nightwind Leonov: sorry for being perpetually late. ^^;;
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi Nightwind!
TOPGenosse Brouwer: err welcome
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you Justice
Nightwind Leonov: hey Gwyneth. ^^
Gwyneth Llewelyn has indicated consent to be recorded.
Nightwind Leonov: So... umm... what's the topic of discussion for today, then?
Justice Soothsayer: Moon just read the vote tallys on the various possible recommendations to the RA
Justice Soothsayer: she is creating a chart while we wait anxiously
Nightwind Leonov: aah, fair enough.
Nightwind Leonov: heh. with my finals done, and me jobless, ya'll will be seeing more of me around than usual, so I should get some things done. >.>
Justice Soothsayer: so far it seems that Al Gore is slightly ahead
Dexter Leopold: lol
Ranma Tardis: need to fugure in ths swinging chads
Justice Soothsayer has bad memories of Decision 2000, dontcha know?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 
Dexter Leopold nods in agreement
Ranma Tardis: dimpled, hanging, etc
TOPGenosse Brouwer: That decision lasted for 8 years
Dexter Leopold: hehe
Michel Manen: even lynched chads
Ranma Tardis: so most citizens want the thing?
Michel Manen: yup
Justice Soothsayer: getting back to my [revised] instant commentary - 9 of 14 had keeping the Judiciary unamended (or unrepealed) as their last choice
Ranma Tardis: how horrible, I came to the cds to be free of the legal complex
Justice Soothsayer: yet only 4 of 13 had repeal as their first choice.
Ranma Tardis: rl is too complex
Nightwind Leonov: heh... I forgot to vote... ^^;;
Nightwind Leonov knew he missed something
Justice Soothsayer: sorry, i mean 5 of 13.
Justice Soothsayer: I am just 1 member of the RA, but I think the message is: keep it, but change it (in unspecified ways which we must discuss)
Ludo Merit: No, no one had repeal as their first choice.
Ludo Merit: Five had it as second choice. Let me scroll back and make sure of that.
Dexter Leopold: thought 5 did as first
Justice Soothsayer: You: How many had that as their first choice? [17:26] Moon Adamant: 5 people did
Ludo Merit: Woops, I was wrong, whic means my math was wrong.
Moon Adamant: there
Justice Soothsayer: can you rezz the tabulation of votes, Moon (and make it freely copyable)
Moon Adamant: hm?
Moon Adamant: thsi jpeg, you mean?
Justice Soothsayer: your jpeg
Justice Soothsayer: ah, there it is
Dexter Leopold: Certainly far from a strong mandate being sent to the RA
Nightwind Leonov: out of curiousity, what does the asterisk mean in the 4th column?
Justice Soothsayer: that person did not rank all 4
Nightwind Leonov: aah, alright.
Moon Adamant: i am trying to set it to anyone can copy
Moon Adamant: ok, even better
Moon Adamant: click to buy the texture for l$0
Moon Adamant: er... can someone test that, please?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes..
Moon Adamant: i am having lots of issue with asset server
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, I've got a copy
Dexter Leopold: worked for me
Moon Adamant: ok, cool
Dexter Leopold: thx MOon
Justice Soothsayer: looking at this from a slightly different perspective, 4 people ranked "keep it unaltered" as #1, while 5 people ranked "repeal" as #1
Michel Manen: and 5 to amend
Michel Manen: very nicely distributed
Justice Soothsayer: while 9 people ranked "keep it unaltered" as #4, and 4 people ranked "Repeal" as #4.
Justice Soothsayer: with everyone else in the middle.
Moon Adamant: btw, it is legible, the table?
Dexter Leopold: yes
Nightwind Leonov: yesw
Moon Adamant: i hope it is easy to read...
Justice Soothsayer: suggesting that there are two polar extremes in this debate, with the rest in the middle (i.e. no clear consensus)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, typical result.
Dexter Leopold: that's our people!!!
Michel Manen: and they are all equal in 2st choices lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ie. nothing else was really expected, was it?
Dexter Leopold: hehe
Michel Manen: sorry ast
Michel Manen: 1st
Ludo Merit: I'm seeing some interesting patterns.
Justice Soothsayer nominates Ludo to draft the report to RA
Dexter Leopold seconds
Dexter Leopold: : )
Ludo Merit: What, isn't anyone else a statistician?
Dexter Leopold looks into the air, whistles
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Nightwind Leonov: marketing, here.
Justice Soothsayer: the table will soon become someone's master's thesis
Moon Adamant is not mathematical at all
Gwyneth Llewelyn knows how to spell "Excel"
Jon Seattle: Ah, I see
Ludo Merit: Nah, it's not that complicated.
Jon Seattle: which option is which?
Justice Soothsayer: yeah, moon, we need to label the options too
Dexter Leopold: 1 keep, 2 amend, 3 amend/suspend, 4 repeal
Moon Adamant: sighs
Justice Soothsayer: sorry
Nightwind Leonov: so, repeal and amend are our two real options...?
Justice Soothsayer: some of us are better with words than numbers
Moon Adamant: brb then, photoshopping
Justice Soothsayer: heh
Jon Seattle: Ah, I propose using small prime numbers as weights
Jon Seattle: and then summing
Jon Seattle: this preserves all information
Justice Soothsayer is lost at "small prime numbers"
Jon Seattle: 7, 5, and 3
Ludo Merit: Two is a prime, and I think one is as well
Jon Seattle: so for option 1, say 4 * 7 + 1 * 5 + 0 * 3
Justice Soothsayer: we need a "Prime Number Commission"
Jon Seattle: One is not prime.
Ludo Merit: It is only divisible by itself and one.
Jon Seattle: It turns out a great deal of number theory collapses if you allow 1 to be prime.
Jon Seattle: 2 is however.
Ludo Merit: Two is the only even prime
Jon Seattle: I like the odd primes.
Jon Seattle: thus 7, 5, 3
Justice Soothsayer: and we thought lawyer debates got complicated, wait til the mathematicians get going.
Dexter Leopold nods at Justice
Ludo Merit: I think there are some patterns in this data that won't be preserved and using a number as high as 7 for a weight could be misleading.
Ludo Merit: Hang on a minute and I should be able to say something.
Ranma Tardis: too compicate
Ranma Tardis: should be just a straight vote
Dexter Leopold: guess we'll have start attacking the mathematicians now along with the lawyers on the forum
Justice Soothsayer: I look at this chart and it says neither side is convincing - most of us are in the middle, leaning toward some sort of unspecified change, but dissatisfied with status quo.
Dexter Leopold: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, there are some things worth noticing
Justice Soothsayer listens to Gwyn
Moon Adamant: ok, get the new version
Gwyneth Llewelyn: like hmm, 9 people (2/3) ranked option #1 as being the worst for them
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But the opposite is not true.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, no one ranked the two "compromising" things in the middle as the worst option.
Jon Seattle: The advantage of the weighting scheme is that it counts people' second choice.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes.
Dexter Leopold: true, but shouldn't the weights have been predetermined and the people told prior to voting?
Jon Seattle: otherwise you end up throwing out the additional informaiton about choices.
TOPGenosse Brouwer: I agree w/ Dexter
Moon Adamant: hmmm, i think it is easy to undertand that 1 will be higher than 2, tehn 3, etc, no?
Jon Seattle: Dexter, other schemes may end up throwing out information, In this case you can recover the origjnal counts. But we can use several weighting schemes if you like.
Dexter Leopold: yes Moon, that I get : )
Ludo Merit: May I point out some things?
Dexter Leopold: please
Justice Soothsayer: oh, i think we are all free to interpret (and weigh) the results as we like (or are convinced by our favourite mathematician)
Justice Soothsayer: btw, we have the soapbox, if anyone wants it
Nightwind Leonov: =D
Justice Soothsayer: and please click recorder on the table to indicate consent
Moon Adamant has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jon Seattle has indicated consent to be recorded.
Nightwind Leonov: consent of the facts you've just told us
Nightwind Leonov: ?
Justice Soothsayer: consent to recording
Nightwind Leonov: aah.
Nightwind Leonov has indicated consent to be recorded.
Dexter Leopold: good question though Night
Nightwind Leonov: bah. it's not a good question, it just proves I confuse easily. x3
Dexter Leopold: : )
Justice Soothsayer: Ludo? Analysis?
Dexter Leopold: yes
Ludo Merit: If I look at what the second choices were for each of the first choices, more polarity is evident.
Jon Seattle: Using prime number weights: (for info only)
Dexter Leopold: : )
Ludo Merit: Go ahead, Jon.
Jon Seattle: keep = 33
Jon Seattle: amend = 70
Jon Seattle: suspend = 60
Jon Seattle: repeal = 47
Jon Seattle: I assume that last column is repeal?
Justice Soothsayer: right
Moon Adamant: oops
Moon Adamant: sorry
Moon Adamant: photoshop again *sighs*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "indefinitely suspend"
Jon Seattle smiles, np!
Jon Seattle: It sure looks like amend and / or ammend + suspend is the majority position to me.
Justice Soothsayer: so, having taken the pulse of the community our conclusion is that the community has a pulse.
Jon Seattle: thought my argument has to be informal.
Nightwind Leonov: hey, at least we're not dead.
Jon Seattle: ty Moon
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thanks, Moon
Dexter Leopold: I have a hard time ignoring that only 1 person voted for amend/suspend, but yet it carries that much weight in that analysis
Justice Soothsayer: thanks, moon
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm interesting observation, Dexter.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, quite correct
Jon Seattle: Ah, because it was the second choice for many many.
Dexter Leopold: I understand why,I'm just chirping here
Dexter Leopold: : )
Jon Seattle: We could do a contingency table, but that is much more complicated.
Jon Seattle: But it seems to me, the main conclusion that I draw from this, is that we really need the second round of baloting
Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh-huh
Michel Manen: thi s vote resolved nohing..... it only tells us what we new
Jon Seattle: Michel, no, this tells me quite a lot.
Ludo Merit: It's also a small sample of the population.
Jon Seattle: For example
Michel Manen: indedd
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's not a referendum, mind you, just a *comission*
Michel Manen: 14 out of 65
Jon Seattle: Well, of the people who cared enough to show up
Moon Adamant: well, everyone was invited to attend
Nightwind Leonov: hey now, that's not fair, Jon.
Justice Soothsayer: or had the time, or had enough notice, etc.
Dexter Leopold: just the part of the population crazy enough to get involved in this, lol
Nightwind Leonov: I just finished finals for college, and I -was- working 13 hour shifts.
Michel Manen: and so little time to vote
Moon Adamant: justice, everyone was contacted
Jon Seattle: keep was first choice for 4 but there are not many who listed it for second choice.
Justice Soothsayer: but it is interesting that it's not just those who hold the most extreme views - a lot in the middle.
Jon Seattle: That is the good news
Nightwind Leonov: also note, that middle percentile is less that 1/4 of our population. I honestly think this data isnt' a good enough sample set.
Jon Seattle: It means we can move forward and ask how it should be amended.
Michel Manen: brecause we are in such a rush to finish it up after 4 months of work on the judiciary
Ranma Tardis: being against having a rl like justice system inflicted on you is not "extreme"
Moon Adamant: can someone please check if the panel is giving version 3 of teh notes?
Jon Seattle: Ah, nightwind. This is not a sample since it constitutes everyone who voted.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes it is, Moon. I just bought it.
Dexter Leopold: I think "inflicted" is a little strong
Nightwind Leonov: yes, but not every one who -could- vote.
Ranma Tardis: not at all
Jon Seattle: 1. There were the people who cared to vote.
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Moon > Why not put a "version 3" on the Jpeg?
Michel Manen: this poll can be used to support almost any position
Ludo Merit: The panel?
Nightwind Leonov: exactly my point, Michel.
Nightwind Leonov: the people who voted are what.
Ranma Tardis: that is my point
Nightwind Leonov: 14.
Nightwind Leonov: out of 65?
Nightwind Leonov: that's less than a quarter of our population there.
Jon Seattle: Michel, no, that is incorrect.
Michel Manen: it is open to manipuhahah
Ranma Tardis: well they could not be bothered
Nightwind Leonov: and then you have amajority of the minority helping us to move forward?
Michel Manen: becaue we had such a short voting time
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Moon > "Ballot-votes3", so yes
Moon Adamant: thanks everyone who checked
Moon Adamant is having a lot of asset lag
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry to chime in, but don't overestimate the "power" of the comission
Dexter Leopold: very true
Jon Seattle: It says to me very clearly, that those who insist on no change at all are tyring to impose their will on the majority, who are clearly in the middle on this.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Any group of citizens could simply have gotten together and presented a proposal to the RA.
Nightwind Leonov: but the people who voted aren't a majority of the population!
Michel Manen: Mark Twain once said : There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. " This is the perfect example. Only 14 citizens out of 65 had the chance to vote because of the unde haste of the Commission, the incredibly short window during which people could vote
Nightwind Leonov: if this was 20, or 30 people out of 65, sure.
Nightwind Leonov: that would be a wonderful sample of the population, and a good indicator.
Ranma Tardis: well the current system is too complex, I dont have money to waste on lawyers
Nightwind Leonov: but, at 14, I can't trust these numbers at all.
Ludo Merit: We are supposed to make a recommendation. We need not make it in accordance with this vote. This is a beginning.
Nightwind Leonov: I reccomend we vote again.
Dexter Leopold: #1, has any made a statement that damn lawyers are going to be expensive, or charge at all?
Michel Manen: IAnd now this will be used to invest the commission's report withlegitimacy, and the RA's decision will reply on the Commission's report. What a travesty of democracy!
Ludo Merit: I recommend that we talk.
Nightwind Leonov: I reccomend we order out for pizza. :3
Ranma Tardis: well I will never hire a lawyer
Ranma Tardis: beer
Justice Soothsayer: Michel, the commission could certainly recommend that more discussion is needed
Ranma Tardis: a clear vote is needed
Justice Soothsayer: though that begs the question of what we do while that discussion transpires
Ludo Merit: No one chose suspending first.
Dexter Leopold nods
Justice Soothsayer nods
Jon Seattle: yes, I think that most of the need for suspension was taken care of my Justice's simplified procedure.
Dexter Leopold: "A" system must move forward while more debate rages
TOPGenosse Brouwer: I agree w/ Michel that the time-window was short to produce a representative sample .. however if the RA only wants an "indication"...
Jon Seattle: *by
Nightwind Leonov: and an indication would be a decent sample set!
Michel Manen: In practical terms, what does the commission now that it didnt know before from the discussion already taking place? Virtually nothing.
Jon Seattle: Quite a lot
Nightwind Leonov: you don't look at a black toe and lob off the leg because it may have gangrene!
Michel Manen: hahaha
Jon Seattle: in fact I was surprised at some of the results.
Michel Manen: indeed
Soapbox: Jon Seattle is on the soapbox now!
Ranma Tardis: I think the judicial system is more like a cancer
Soapbox: Shhh...
Jon Seattle: Let me explain.
Jon Seattle: There were a number of people who said to me that there was no substantial group who disagreed with the system as it was set up.
Soapbox: It is Ranma Tardis's turn to speak, please take the floor
Justice Soothsayer: sorry, premature
Soapbox: Shhh...
Jon Seattle: that all we need do is stand by the existing system
Soapbox: Jon Seattle is on the soapbox now!
Soapbox: Jon Seattle is on the soapbox now!
Jon Seattle: this shows beyond a doubt that there is at least a substantial group who questions the system as it is
Jon Seattle: and wants to reform it in some way.
Michel Manen: sorry
Soapbox: Shhh...
Jon Seattle: and that is news to me.
Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
Justice Soothsayer: Ranma?
Soapbox: Ranma Tardis is on the soapbox now!
Justice Soothsayer: MIchel next
Soapbox: Shhh...
Ranma Tardis: I see the current justice system being imposed on the adverege citizen
Ranma Tardis: there is no check from the state being abusive with endless court battles in which it is not possible for us to use without a lawyer
Ranma Tardis: from my rl experience lawers coust hunderds of amercian dollars for the sinmplest thing
Ranma Tardis: I view this as rp
Ranma Tardis: nothing more, it will not add to our quality of life
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Let's propose a bill to expell all lawyers from the CDS ;-D
Soapbox: Shhh...
Ranma Tardis: also no relief from alts sending in lots of cases, the alt just needs to be able to use the system
Ranma Tardis: good thought
Ranma Tardis: I will not pay hundreds of dollars for my 6 dollar lot, this encourges me to keep my "investment" as small as possible
Ranma Tardis: thank you
Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
Justice Soothsayer: Michel, then Nightwind, Ludo, Gwyneth.
Dexter Leopold: wow, I got a long time to wait
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Patience, patience
Michel Manen: sorry im lagging
Soapbox: Michel Manen is on the soapbox now!
Michel Manen: Thank you.
Michel Manen: Well, I think the results of this poll are telling indeed.
Michel Manen: When the Commission was proposed, I was hopeful
Michel Manen: THat we would do this in accordance with well established principles
Michel Manen: of thoroughness and fairness.
Michel Manen: This Commision will be finished in one week or less
Michel Manen: the voting window was less than one day
Michel Manen: the recommendations will be issued in 24 hours
Michel Manen: based on 14 cvitizens viotes
Michel Manen: out of 54
Michel Manen: 65
Michel Manen: . THe RA will rely on this report to make
Michel Manen: one the most critical decisions
Michel Manen: in the history of the CDS.
TOPGenosse Brouwer: hear hear
Soapbox: Shhh...
Michel Manen: What does this tell us about the manner we practice democracy and delberation?
Michel Manen: Especially afterwe took 4 months to try to devise a new legal system?
Michel Manen: Not much.
Michel Manen: In my oipi\inion, this poll
Michel Manen: is fatally flawed
Michel Manen: it will confer no legitimacy
Michel Manen: to wahtever recommendation the commission will make
Michel Manen: and to whatever decisin the RA will take,
Michel Manen: I feell very sad about this.
Michel Manen: Thank you.
Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
Justice Soothsayer: Ludo next
Soapbox: It is Nightwind Leonov's turn to speak, please take the floor
Soapbox: Ludo Merit is on the soapbox now!
Nightwind Leonov: [18:32] Justice Soothsayer: Michel, then Nightwind, Ludo, Gwyneth.
Soapbox: Shhh...
Justice Soothsayer: then Nightwind
Soapbox: Shhh...
Nightwind Leonov: you reversed it, Justice.
Soapbox: Shhh...
Justice Soothsayer: sorry
Soapbox: Shhh...
Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
Nightwind Leonov: oh, bah, I won't be such an ass.
Nightwind Leonov: go ahead, Ludo.
Ludo Merit: If nightwind is supposed to be next let him be next.
Nightwind Leonov: no, lazy.
Nightwind Leonov: you're already up. x3
Soapbox: Ludo Merit is on the soapbox now!
Nightwind Leonov: I just... like I said, I confuse easily, so I was lik e"wtf?!"
Soapbox: Shhh...
Ludo Merit: What is important is not this confusion of numbers.
Ludo Merit: What is important is that we make a wise recommendation.
Ludo Merit: It is evident that more of us, use being the commission, did not choose keep as their first choice than did.
Ludo Merit: It is equally evident that 9 thought keep was fourth choice and eight thought repeal was third or fourth choice.
Ludo Merit: So there is substantial dissatisfaction with Ashcroft's design but also substantial satisfaction with parts of it.
Ludo Merit: It seems we must recommend change and must recommend that something be instituted while the change is being debated, but we don't concur on what changes are needed.
Ludo Merit: So a vote to change is not a vote agreeeing with anyone, it's a vote disagreeing with the status quo.
Ludo Merit: We dono't have an alternative.
Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
Justice Soothsayer: Nightwind?
Soapbox: Nightwind Leonov is on the soapbox now!
Nightwind Leonov: pyeh. that's my first thought at this.
Nightwind Leonov: we've got a small sample, that is almost irrelevant.
Nightwind Leonov: I mean, I only took statistics for a few years..
Nightwind Leonov: .but from what I can remember, you need a decent sample set to pull out any decent conclusions. and by decent, I mean concrete.
Nightwind Leonov: Sure, you can say "well, the majority are dissatisfied with the status quo". that's actually true, if you consider a majority of voters to equal 14.
Ludo Merit: Ten
Soapbox: Shhh...
Nightwind Leonov: I, for one, was never notified about this vote, and I actually don't even have the information on what this was -about-.
Michel Manen: hear hear
Soapbox: Shhh...
Nightwind Leonov: and as such, I am extremley frightened.
Jon Seattle: Nightwind. that applies only if this is a sample. We are not trying to sample but to determine the recomendations of the comission. Everyone in the comission had an oppertunity to vote.
Soapbox: Shhh...
Nightwind Leonov: why? because, even though I work -for- you guys, and even though I work with you, I have no idea what this is about, and it seems to be insanely important.
Nightwind Leonov: to answer you, Jon, this couldn't even determine a reccomendation. Do me a favor. go into a city, and talk to 3 businessmen, and then 3 hobos. about, oh, say anything.
Nightwind Leonov: you'll get three decent answers, 2 "illuminati" answers, and one "DEAR GOD THERE'S GLASS IN MAH TEEF" answer.
TOPGenosse Brouwer: hahah !?!?! huh?
Soapbox: Shhh...
Nightwind Leonov: according to that small set, like what we're dealing with here, 1/3 of all people believe in the illuminati.
Nightwind Leonov: do you follow my analogy?
Nightwind Leonov: the 6 people you talked to on the street are -useless- compared to everyone else in the city.
Nightwind Leonov: all this proves is that you went and grabbed -literally- whoever was close to you and polled them. if I remember correctly, you said this vote was within 24 hours.
Nightwind Leonov: that's an insane time window.
Michel Manen: hear hear
Soapbox: Shhh...
Nightwind Leonov: in conclusion, for the love of god, please just discount all findings in this survey. it's not a good sample set, it doesn't gague the feelings of the people, and I would honestly fight this thing from ever appearing again.
Justice Soothsayer: time
Soapbox: Shhh...
Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
Soapbox: It is Ludo Merit's turn to speak, please take the floor
Justice Soothsayer: Gwyn
Soapbox: Gwyneth Llewelyn is on the soapbox now!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you
Soapbox: It is Gwyneth Llewelyn's turn to speak, please take the floor
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well hmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think I'll echo Jon's words a bit.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm not sure if everybody understood exactly why we did vote at all,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: or why we thought that voting on a conclusion was a good idea.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We have a representative democracy, and just 5 peole
Gwyneth Llewelyn: debating over a period of 2 months and a bit, if I recall correctly
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and posting half a billion posts
Gwyneth Llewelyn: reached the conclusion, unanimously, voting three times on it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that the JA was good enough to be approved.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, our duly elected representatives,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: know what they're doing
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And they also know something else ?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "there is nothing written on stone"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Everything gets changed, amended, tweaked
Gwyneth Llewelyn: over time, and as the citizenry changes.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's all right.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We have also a good experience:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: the newer citizens are the most active ones,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and the ones very likely to sit in the RA next.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's good.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: after the vote was passed
Gwyneth Llewelyn: we increased our population by 50%.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lots of new people came in,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and found that the JA was not to their taste.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Democracy and democratically approved rules are not "imposed"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: on anyone.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thus I think it was appropriate to review things.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: With whomever was willing to discuss
Gwyneth Llewelyn: this "vote" here
Gwyneth Llewelyn: does not represent "a minority" or "majority"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: only the *RA* represent the people
Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is just to make *recommendations*
Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and my time is up!
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Soapbox: It is Michel Manen's turn to speak, please take the floor
Justice Soothsayer: Michel?
TOPGenosse Brouwer: But this vote respresents the opinions of "those who are actively involved' ? <only>
Soapbox: Michel Manen is on the soapbox now!
Michel Manen: I'd like to briefly address just one point
Michel Manen: made by Gwyn.: Democracy is not imposed on anyone
Michel Manen: That is true.
Michel Manen: However, does that necessarily mean
Michel Manen: that with each wave
Michel Manen: of new citizens
Michel Manen: we will radically review and change
Michel Manen: our most basic institutions
Michel Manen: simply because
Michel Manen: they new majority
Michel Manen: was not there at the Point of Origin?
Michel Manen: Certainly not.
Michel Manen: If newxt week, a\our poupulation triples
Michel Manen: and we are faced with requests
Michel Manen: of a legal system
Michel Manen: based on rpinciples
Michel Manen: radically differnt
Michel Manen: from the Values of the CDS
Michel Manen: will be change again?
Michel Manen: No.
Michel Manen: So i thtink
Michel Manen: that democracy and stability
Michel Manen: must work together
Michel Manen: not to have one privileged at hte expense of the other
Michel Manen: What we aree doing now
Michel Manen: will provide a precedent
Michel Manen: fror many futuredisasters
Michel Manen: it is simply wrong.
Michel Manen: Thsnk you
Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
Soapbox: It is Justice Soothsayer's turn to speak, please take the floor
Justice Soothsayer: ooh, me!
Soapbox: Justice Soothsayer is on the soapbox now!
Justice Soothsayer: This Commission, and this vote, was never intended to be a representative sample of the population.
Justice Soothsayer: We have one of those,
Justice Soothsayer: every six months or so,
Justice Soothsayer: it's called the election.
Justice Soothsayer: What this process was intended to do was to see if the forum discontent about the judiciary was real, and called for action.
Justice Soothsayer: I hoped, and I think the other RA members hoped, we would expand the conversation beyond the "usual suspects" of the forums.
Justice Soothsayer: And to a limited extent, we did, as some people who only occacionally write on the forums have participated here
Justice Soothsayer: But this has been the group of the people who "care the most" about the judiciary (pro or con)
Justice Soothsayer: and some in the middle
Justice Soothsayer: Certainly the group of people who have written about it the most,
Justice Soothsayer: probably those who have thought about it the most, and certainly have listened to it the most.
Justice Soothsayer: So they (we) are entitled to some respect, and cannot be easily dismissed as unrepresentative
Justice Soothsayer: This vote, messy as it is, can hardly be viewed as a vote of confidence inthe judiciary as it stands today
Justice Soothsayer: It does not tell the RA what to do, though,
Justice Soothsayer: and I think we will need quite a bit more time to identify the alternatives.
Justice Soothsayer: Ash proposed on yesterday (Ash 3), I proposed one before this commission even started.
Justice Soothsayer: And I am sure other suggestions will be forthcoming.
Justice Soothsayer: I also dont think there can at this juncture be any consensus "report" from the commission.
Justice Soothsayer: Other than to provid ethe RA saturday with these numbers, our transcripts, and anything else anyone wants to contribute.
Justice Soothsayer: But I am also willing to listen to suggestions of how to proceed,
Justice Soothsayer: so I will leave the soapbox now.
Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Good speech, Justice!
Justice Soothsayer: ty, Top.
Soapbox: Dexter Leopold is on the soapbox now!
Justice Soothsayer: Dexter.
Soapbox: Shhh...
Dexter Leopold: Thank you, just a few points
Dexter Leopold: I will not rehash the arguments I have previously made, nor those that I have heard that I support tonight
Jon Seattle: I have to run home. Thanks everyone.
Soapbox: Shhh...
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Bye jon
Soapbox: Shhh...
Dexter Leopold: The fact is that I do not agree about this being a representative sample, but that being said
Dexter Leopold: we cannot force those to participate who may not care one way or the other
Dexter Leopold: There are obviously a good many who believe in some sort of change
Dexter Leopold: I do not, but I am one citizen
Dexter Leopold: I want to stress my belief that amendments, and especially any real consensus on amendments, will be a lenghty process
Dexter Leopold: and that some system must move forward while that debate goes on
Dexter Leopold: I feel doing that, arguing amendments if that's what the RA chooses, while putting into practice the system that is in place now
Dexter Leopold: can both shed light on what needs to be done
Dexter Leopold: I also want to state that the JA was not forced on anyone
Dexter Leopold: it was agreed upon by the RA, like so many other things
Dexter Leopold: The JA is not a product of those "nasty lawyers" in here necessarily
Dexter Leopold: we must remember that lawyers are also responsible for advocating and drafting the current simple system
Dexter Leopold: we must be open to ideas, but me must also start putting something to the test, for I believe that will reveal much
Dexter Leopold: Thank you
Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
Justice Soothsayer: thank you
Justice Soothsayer: it is now getting late
Justice Soothsayer: this meeting has been going for over 2 hours
Justice Soothsayer: and everyone has had a turn at the soapbox
Justice Soothsayer: and we have aslo scheduled a session at 1 pm tomorrow
Justice Soothsayer: so unless anyone has any burning comments they feel they must make
Justice Soothsayer: going once.....
Ranma Tardis: a question of Dexter san
Justice Soothsayer: Ranma?
Ranma Tardis: dexter san, who is going to pay for the lawyers?
Dexter Leopold: If you want free representation, I'll give it to you Ranma
Dexter Leopold: problem solved
Justice Soothsayer: not if she's liable for the other side's costs
Ranma Tardis: they are expensive and the most people will not be able to use the system
Dexter Leopold: I cannot control that Justice
Dexter Leopold: But I think we cannot talk about this great expense when none has ever been laid out there
Ranma Tardis: thus our "investments" here are not safe
Ranma Tardis: yet
Dexter Leopold: so no system at all?
Ranma Tardis: the egg has not hatched yet
Justice Soothsayer: OK, with that exchange, we are now adjourned.
The meeting closed at 19:15 Linden time.
