New Local Government Study Group

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Ashcroft Burnham
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New Local Government Study Group

Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

Many of you may be interested in joining a new group that I have created in-world called the "Local Government Study Group". Its group charter is as follows:

[quote="Group Charter":3a67xhe3]A group to study ways of using the concept of local governments to enhance commerce, and improve organisation and law and order in SecondLife, and to lobby Linden Lab to integrate local government tools into the SecondLife software.

Anyone concerned about fraud, griefing, underhanded business practices, IP theft, or interested in ways of organising groups of people in more complex and sophisticated ways without having to extend an unwise level of trust to any given member, should consider joining.[/quote:3a67xhe3]

I have devised the following outline plan of the group's activities:

[quote:3a67xhe3]Local Government Study Group - outline plan

* Phase 1 - creation

Recruit new members.
Publicise the group.

* Phase 2 - preparation

Have an initial social meeting.
Have a planning meeting to organise how we will set about working.
Discuss ideas, including, eventually, details, about how local government tools, integrated into the SL software, could work to improve organisation and the rule of law in SL.

* Phase 3 - implimentation

Formulate an agreed proposal to LL
Discuss and agree on effective methods of persuading LL to adopt it, and put that plan into action.

* Phase 4 - unknown

Whether there will be a phase 4, and what it is, will depend on whether, and to what extent, phase 3 is successful.[/quote:3a67xhe3]

We are currently in phase 1, with the emphasis on recruitment. We alerady have a considerable number of members, including well-known figures such as Desmond Shang, Random Cole, katykiwi Moonflower, Frank Koolhaas, Tom Bukowski, as well as a few familliar CDS faces, including Sudane, Redakisto, Michel and Dexter.

Enrolment is free of charge and open. I plan to have the first social meeting either shortly before or shortly after Christmas.

Ashcroft Burnham

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Pelanor Eldrich
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I'd like to join.

Post by Pelanor Eldrich »

Hi Ash,

When I finally get back in world, I'd like to join your group. There are at least a couple of tools for self-governance I'd like to see LL implement.

1) An avatar should be able to a priori sanction a group to banish him/her to the cornfield for a maximum predetermined amount of time. Cash and assets should be frozen (no send/recieve). Call that the "Arrest Power". This makes the job of marshall much easier and stops suspects from transferring funds/objects illegally while under investigation.

2) An avatar should be able to visit a LL vendor to get a LL digitally signed transaction log on a notecard. When requesting a transaction log, you should be able to query for date range and avatar name. A second log should datestamp and list your inventory. This is useful for investigations, audits and enables flat and graduated income taxes should we ever desire them.

Thanks!

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Re: I'd like to join.

Post by Desmond Shang »

[quote="Pelanor Eldrich":2uh1a7dm]1) An avatar should be able to a priori sanction a group to banish him/her to the cornfield for a maximum predetermined amount of time. Cash and assets should be frozen (no send/recieve). Call that the "Arrest Power". This makes the job of marshall much easier and stops suspects from transferring funds/objects illegally while under investigation.

2) An avatar should be able to visit a LL vendor to get a LL digitally signed transaction log on a notecard. When requesting a transaction log, you should be able to query for date range and avatar name. A second log should datestamp and list your inventory. This is useful for investigations, audits and enables flat and graduated income taxes should we ever desire them.[/quote:2uh1a7dm]

Item #2 seems very worthwhile! One small issue with it: privacy. We all conduct transactions with people with the understanding that transactions are more or less private save for the involved parties.

Not that there is any right to privacy. There certainly isn't one in the United States or the United Kingdom, if I recall correctly. But... culturally, it is deeply engrained. Something to think about - before enacting such a thing the loss of player-to-player transaction privacy should be made clear.

Item #1 I don't understand. Allow a group to stop a person's ability to exchange money or items, confine them... am I reading this right? Indeed, yes, it would make the job of marshall quite easy!!!

I can imagine the field day that Prokofy would have with such a proposal, if I'm understanding this correctly.

Are you familiar with the following? http://www.prisonexp.org/

Is there wisdom in making such a thing possible on the grid?

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Thanks for the comments...

Post by Pelanor Eldrich »

Hi Desmond,

It's wonderful to have you and your always helpful criticism in our forum. I like the way you think.

The Mad Aunt Bea Problem: In reforming our guild I've propsed training and accreditation for Estate Owners and other AC roles such as Treasurer and Director of CDS Bank. Only those with formal SL training and some kind of track record would aaplicants be considered for this most important positions. Also, because sim owner (EO) is such an important post, I'd like to keep it to one avatar per sim equivalent and to keep other powers out of the hands of EOs. I'm still debating that.

The Evil Estate Owner Problem: I've already discussed using $1200USD escrow divided among the other branch heads. It needs a little refinement. Disaster recovery for when the Evil Estate Owner has sold the sim or nuked the contents is being worked on. The problem with sharing passwords (so a "deputy" could step in) is that you multiply the evil EO risk while reducing disaster recovery risk. There are ways, of say having a key supplied to a deputy if and only if 2 branch heads (for example) declare a sim state of emergency. Still working on that.

The Evil Gov't Branch Head: When designing a democratic system of gov't the checks and balances must address a tyrant or criminal occupying one or more branches. How would such abuse be checked and balanced? It's important not to look at personalities when designing such a system. I also have a software QA background, so I often think of ways that the system could be "crashed" by an abusive officer of gov't.

The Digitally Signed Transaction Log: When "Querying" for this log, I expect that you should probably have to supply avatar names. Otherwise, the transactions should be deidentified/anonymous. Avatar names are not important in taxation, but can be in audits and certainly are in commercial criminal case investigation. In all cases, the minimum "need to know" should be supplied by the avatar who requests the log, and logs should only be requestable by the owning avatar. I'd like an equivalent log for a datestamped snapshot of $L and Inventory with UUID as well as a inventory transfer log.

The Arrest Power: This is purely opt-in, and BTW, I have a pscyh degree and am fully aware of the Milgram and other pioneering social psych experiments on the topic. It's surely debatable. The problem without this tool is the ability to move stolen objects and funds to alts while under investigation. In terms of penalties, we can always use our model of fining and property seizure and threat of CDS wide ban. The problem is in the investigation portion. Perhaps the Log power would be enough, I don't know. Surely an avatar would have to opt into (obvisouly beforehand) the arrest power, and a max amount of time in the cornfield should be specified during opt-in. Some might want to make this opt-in a condition of virtual nation citizenship. Just a thought. The Log power with sufficient privacy safeguards might obviate the need for an arrest power.

If we cared what the naysayers thought, the CDS wouldn't exist. I'm much more interested in constructive criticism and people who build, like you Desmond. Thanks! -Pel

PS: I need to get back in world so we can discuss how to boost retail and service sector (commercial activity generally), as well as boosting gov't revenue without excess taxation.

PPS: I'm mindful of the fact that the non-LL proposals essentially go nowhere until they are debated, amended as required and passed or rejected by the RA representing the people. The adoption of proposals sent to LL is the domain of LL.

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Re: Thanks for the comments...

Post by Desmond Shang »

*after the 'Arrest powers' suggestion Desmond quietly tags Pelanor's commentary with a warm brown, in as good a humour as possible but also in fear of Godwining the thread, and suspects that few will get the reference anyway*

[color=brown:24nsn8gv]It's wonderful to have you and your always helpful criticism in our forum. I like the way you think.[/color:24nsn8gv]

[color=violet:24nsn8gv]*grin* - Well, I do try to be constructive here, as I am clearly a guest and this is not 'open forum' - I attempt to behave here, ah, mostly. :) I'm not always being a critic, though.[/color:24nsn8gv]

[color=brown:24nsn8gv]The Mad Aunt Bea Problem: In reforming our guild I've propsed training and accreditation for Estate Owners and other AC roles such as Treasurer and Director of CDS Bank. Only those with formal SL training and some kind of track record would aaplicants be considered for this most important positions. Also, because sim owner (EO) is such an important post, I'd like to keep it to one avatar per sim equivalent and to keep other powers out of the hands of EOs. I'm still debating that.[/color:24nsn8gv]

[color=violet:24nsn8gv]A good start. I wonder about the practise of it though. I'm famous for *never* hiring an in-world assistants due to the fact that almost inevitably, people who know how to run sims generally start their own, taking your tenants with them. And anyone willing to put up 1250 USD, or more accurately close to 2000 USD now, is about as likely to start their own sim unless they were *very* dedicated to the CDS cause. Yet, I can't see any better solution, save for a *very* loose group of independent sims.[/color:24nsn8gv]

[color=brown:24nsn8gv]The Evil Estate Owner Problem: I've already discussed using $1200USD escrow divided among the other branch heads. It needs a little refinement. Disaster recovery for when the Evil Estate Owner has sold the sim or nuked the contents is being worked on. The problem with sharing passwords (so a "deputy" could step in) is that you multiply the evil EO risk while reducing disaster recovery risk. There are ways, of say having a key supplied to a deputy if and only if 2 branch heads (for example) declare a sim state of emergency. Still working on that.[/color:24nsn8gv]

[color=violet:24nsn8gv]One advantage you do have nowadays: the Company will 'roll back' a sim based on suggestion of an estate manager, not just the owner of record. Which may be a way of protecting content, presuming of course that the owner didn't wipe out the estate manager list too. Another trick: the Payor and the listed Owner of a sim can be different people. The Payor holds much control, if not active control. One might find some additional leverage that way.[/color:24nsn8gv]

[color=brown:24nsn8gv]The Evil Gov't Branch Head: When designing a democratic system of gov't the checks and balances must address a tyrant or criminal occupying one or more branches. How would such abuse be checked and balanced? It's important not to look at personalities when designing such a system. I also have a software QA background, so I often think of ways that the system could be "crashed" by an abusive officer of gov't.[/color:24nsn8gv]

[color=violet:24nsn8gv]Hmm. I'd think it most critical *to* consider personalities, when considering checks and balances. Someone like say, Ashcroft or myself wouldn't be likely to raid the cash register after-hours. However, one might make sure that there wasn't a trap door to a shark aquarium under the place where your Scientific Council or other gatherings take place. Style is everything when it comes to villiany, mmm?[/color:24nsn8gv]

[color=brown:24nsn8gv]The Digitally Signed Transaction Log: When "Querying" for this log, I expect that you should probably have to supply avatar names. Otherwise, the transactions should be deidentified/anonymous. Avatar names are not important in taxation, but can be in audits and certainly are in commercial criminal case investigation. In all cases, the minimum "need to know" should be supplied by the avatar who requests the log, and logs should only be requestable by the owning avatar. I'd like an equivalent log for a datestamped snapshot of $L and Inventory with UUID as well as a inventory transfer log.[/color:24nsn8gv]

[color=violet:24nsn8gv]Interesting. I think about my logs - a lot of 'the usual' - land dealings, sales, and various and sundry... then perhaps someone gives me a note, and you'll see me pay out $L 100,000 to an individual for no transactionally obvious reason. So yes, the big picture might be a tad useless anyway. As for individual transfers - sometimes I assist in rental rights sales in my sims, and I ask that the paying party pay me directly. So there is no question of payment, no 'he said/she said' and I simply forward the money to the person whose land is on the block.[/color:24nsn8gv]

[color=brown:24nsn8gv]The Arrest Power: This is purely opt-in, and BTW, I have a pscyh degree and am fully aware of the Milgram and other pioneering social psych experiments on the topic. It's surely debatable. The problem without this tool is the ability to move stolen objects and funds to alts while under investigation. In terms of penalties, we can always use our model of fining and property seizure and threat of CDS wide ban. The problem is in the investigation portion. Perhaps the Log power would be enough, I don't know. Surely an avatar would have to opt into (obvisouly beforehand) the arrest power, and a max amount of time in the cornfield should be specified during opt-in. Some might want to make this opt-in a condition of virtual nation citizenship. Just a thought. The Log power with sufficient privacy safeguards might obviate the need for an arrest power.[/color:24nsn8gv]

[color=violet:24nsn8gv]To me, such a thing is... well, it's disastrous to even consider. Here is the blatant, immediate risk: Imagine the Herald, or Prokofy's blog proclaiming the title "Pelanor seeks Arrest Powers for Resident-Marshalls!" tomorrow.

With a list of the restrictions just below the story title... no $L transfers, no item transfers, incarceration... surely, you see that nobody anywhere will get invited to parties without knee-jerk opposition to you? No matter how tempered or conditional or restrained your ultimate suggestion may be? It's political suicide, sir.

I do oppose such things, and strongly, but in an intellectual and not knee-jerk way. Such arrest powers as outlined should be in the "And the Government shall make no law..." section, as far as I'm concerned.

Totalitarian regimes are notoriously bad at ensuring good faith business practises - in fact, the very concept of incorporation is specifically to *prevent* people who are operating in good faith from being sent to debtor's prison when a contract goes awry.[/color:24nsn8gv]

[color=brown:24nsn8gv]If we cared what the naysayers thought, the CDS wouldn't exist. I'm much more interested in constructive criticism and people who build, like you Desmond. Thanks! -Pel

PS: I need to get back in world so we can discuss how to boost retail and service sector (commercial activity generally), as well as boosting gov't revenue without excess taxation.

PPS: I'm mindful of the fact that the non-LL proposals essentially go nowhere until they are debated, amended as required and passed or rejected by the RA representing the people. The adoption of proposals sent to LL is the domain of LL.[/color:24nsn8gv]

[color=violet:24nsn8gv]In fact, I am *quite* transparent - I've never held back about how I conduct business.

Catching me in-world might be problematic, though. I've got a good bit of my own sim business ahead of me once I log in later - but I'm always happy to discuss things in forums, or if I get an in-world break.

As for what the Company does... well. Mind that I'd been a manager of highly paid professional engineers for a long time, and... they quite often approach things differently. Often making very different assumptions about human behaviour than say, a restaurant manager or a farmer would.

I would be very, very, very, very cautious about suggesting your 'arrest powers' option to the Company. It's painfully easy to code up something like that, while painfully hard to explain the 'why' of Milgram's results.

Anyway, good luck, and I do hope to see some sort of forum associated with this governance discussion group - is there one?[/color:24nsn8gv]

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I do have many stupid ideas...

Post by Pelanor Eldrich »

Which is why I bounce them off smart people whenever possible. I had a draconian "Customs" proposal meant to stop WWIII type hoards of co-ordinated griefers. While it would work, it would have killed tourism and made CDS less welcoming than North Korea or East Germany. Aliasi set me straight on that one.

I think we can forget all about the "Arrest Power". I suppose some totalitarian regimes would want it. For the CDS, we could simply have the SC/Judiciary request that plaintiffs/defendants provide certain logs or strikeout claims/find guilty if not provided. Such evidence should not be made public if it comprimises privacy of others. I'm sure Ash and the other legal experts can address those issues of privacy concerns re:evidence far better than I can. With logs, we at last can track $L and inventory and get to the bottom of certain matters.

I can't imagine the Herald or any other publication writing about anything I do. I'm not trying to be modest, but I actually think only about 5 avatars outside the CDS have even heard of me. :)

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Re: I do have many stupid ideas...

Post by Desmond Shang »

*quietly changes Pelanor back to a democratic blue, and attempting to darken my laughably pink Imperial purple a bit*

[color=blue:3uibe1gp]Which is why I bounce them off smart people whenever possible. I had a draconian "Customs" proposal meant to stop WWIII type hoards of co-ordinated griefers. While it would work, it would have killed tourism and made CDS less welcoming than North Korea or East Germany. Aliasi set me straight on that one.[/color:3uibe1gp]

[color=indigo:3uibe1gp]Yeah, she's right - it's surprising how even the smallest of shouldertaps can be felt as a slap, either in a forum or on the grid. Something to do with the loss of tone that goes with speech, in text, I think. I wonder how much will change, when the Company at long last rolls out a unified voice comm feature for the grid. I hear it's on their short list.[/color:3uibe1gp]

[color=blue:3uibe1gp]I think we can forget all about the "Arrest Power". I suppose some totalitarian regimes would want it. For the CDS, we could simply have the SC/Judiciary request that plaintiffs/defendants provide certain logs or strikeout claims/find guilty if not provided. Such evidence should not be made public if it comprimises privacy of others. I'm sure Ash and the other legal experts can address those issues of privacy concerns re:evidence far better than I can. With logs, we at last can track $L and inventory and get to the bottom of certain matters.[/color:3uibe1gp]

[color=indigo:3uibe1gp]I think losing the 'Arrest Power' idea is very wise. Paradoxically perhaps, however, I support the fact that the Company has this power. For now, at least.

It's subtle, and there are many reasons why the Company should be able to ban people, but note that the web and email have no such sort of universal incarceration or ban. And function well enough. In a way, the fact that we can recreate alts with ease is telling enough, already. Much to think about here on a philosophic level.[/color:3uibe1gp]

[color=blue:3uibe1gp]I can't imagine the Herald or any other publication writing about anything I do. I'm not trying to be modest, but I actually think only about 5 avatars outside the CDS have even heard of me. :)[/color:3uibe1gp]

[color=indigo:3uibe1gp]Ah, one might be surprised. Shockingly surprised. Realise that your experiment in governance made the BBC via your own Ashcroft - trust me, all of you are being watched carefully by a large number of anonymous Britons at least. :)

Gods know how, but in responding casually to what I thought was a casual novelist, I ended up in the Second Life Handbook myself. Which makes profoundly little sense, insofar as nothing anything I've ever done on the grid has been done 'more' or 'better' by someone else. Sic transit gloria, unless of course you are on the grid and posting commentary about it.

Question: Why was (edit) "much of" the Judiciary act repealed? While I'm not the biggest fan of many ideas, the concept of a micronation with a judicial branch, at least in principle, seems to be a forward step. Maybe one before its time, but... very curious move.[/color:3uibe1gp]

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Post by Beathan »

Desmond --

Much of the Judiciary Act was repealed because, although the idea of having a judiciary is a good one, and although the Judiciary Act contained many excellent ideas, it was too bold a move, making too many questionable assumptions and detail choices, and adding too much initial complexity, which would have restricted our ability to make decisions based on things we learned in implementing the Act. The devil was in the detail.

I fully expect that the CDS will have a Judiciary Act -- and that Act will incorporate much from the original Act -- within a month or so. We are not giving up on this project at all. Rather, we are stepping back, assessing the lessons we have learned from Ash's work on and under the first Judiciary Act, and from the debate about that Act.

I expect the CDS judiciary to be like a twice-forged sword -- better and sharper for having been initially broken.

Beathan

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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Beathan":2l6jwlvw]Desmond --

Much of the Judiciary Act was repealed because, although the idea of having a judiciary is a good one, and although the Judiciary Act contained many excellent ideas, it was too bold a move, making too many questionable assumptions and detail choices, and adding too much initial complexity, which would have restricted our ability to make decisions based on things we learned in implementing the Act. The devil was in the detail.[/quote:2l6jwlvw]

Do not be so arrogant to assume that everybody who supported the destruction of the judiciary did so because they agreed with your specious arguments that you consistently refused to defend with true analysis, as opposed to unsupported strings of pejorative adjectives.

[quote:2l6jwlvw]I fully expect that the CDS will have a Judiciary Act -- and that Act will incorporate much from the original Act -- within a month or so.[/quote:2l6jwlvw]

There is no reasonable prospect of ever reaching agreement again, given the dishonest and disruptive tactics of the anti-judiciary extremists, and deliberately reckless actions of the legislature.

[quote:2l6jwlvw]We are not giving up on this project at all. Rather, we are stepping back, assessing the lessons we have learned from Ash's work on and under the first Judiciary Act, and from the debate about that Act.[/quote:2l6jwlvw]

What has been learnt is that those in power have little interest in doing things properly, or in stability, or in reasoned debate, or in putting into effect hard-negotiated compromises, or in justice, but are either grossly incompetent or thoroughly dishonest, or both.

[quote:2l6jwlvw]I expect the CDS judiciary to be like a twice-forged sword -- better and sharper for having been initially broken.[/quote:2l6jwlvw]

Your sole project since you came to the CDS has been to destroy the judiciary that I helped to create. Under the kind of system that you favour: amateurish over professional, politicised over independent, oversimplified over carefully detailed, there is no prospect of achieving just results except by accident.

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Post by Gxeremio Dimsum »

[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":249mh330]There is no reasonable prospect of ever reaching agreement again, given the dishonest and disruptive tactics of the anti-judiciary extremists, and deliberately reckless actions of the legislature.[/quote:249mh330]

[quote:249mh330]What has been learnt is that those in power have little interest in doing things properly, or in stability, or in reasoned debate, or in putting into effect hard-negotiated compromises, or in justice, but are either grossly incompetent or thoroughly dishonest, or both.[/quote:249mh330]

[quote:249mh330]Your sole project since you came to the CDS has been to destroy the judiciary that I helped to create. Under the kind of system that you favour: amateurish over professional, politicised over independent, oversimplified over carefully detailed, there is no prospect of achieving just results except by accident.[/quote:249mh330]

The word [i:249mh330]vitriolic[/i:249mh330] comes to mind. What evidence do you have that anyone in the CDS is dishonest, disruptive or deliberately reckless? These are extreme, untrue (as far as I know), and quite rude charges against not just public figures but private citizens, which I assume would include myself since I can't remember anyone other than Beathan who has taken a stronger or more consistent stand against the excesses of your Judiciary Act. By the way, you can call us "extremists" if you'd like (though I find the word rather empty in this context), but "anti-judiciary" is a bad moniker as we have all suggested forms of a judiciary which might work better in our context.

I can't even imagine what you might do if someone leveled these kinds of charges against you (which they haven't, as far as I know). Do you believe you are above the "unenlightened masses" here?

As I've suggested for several weeks, try your system privately and prove it works outside of force. If it can't work because there is no force behind it, it won't work in the CDS anyway since the enforcement mechanisms of the CDS are unalterably weak. If it does work, you've proven us all wrong. In any case, don't give up, and definitely don't become bitter towards a community of which you have become an important part.

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Post by Desmond Shang »

[color=indigo:30xqbuej]Well... question answered twice over! I think.[/color:30xqbuej]

[color=blue:30xqbuej]As I've suggested for several weeks, try your system privately and prove it works outside of force. If it can't work because there is no force behind it, it won't work in the CDS anyway since the enforcement mechanisms of the CDS are unalterably weak. If it does work, you've proven us all wrong. In any case, don't give up, and definitely don't become bitter towards a community of which you have become an important part.[/color:30xqbuej]

[color=indigo:30xqbuej]Now that seems like an interesting idea. I wonder what the 'adoption criteria' would be, were the judicial system to be tried privately and seen as modestly successful?

With no offence intended to anyone, I sense personality driving policy from all sides. [/color:30xqbuej]

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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Gxeremio Dimsum":3rs9t44w]The word [i:3rs9t44w]vitriolic[/i:3rs9t44w] comes to mind. What evidence do you have that anyone in the CDS is dishonest, disruptive or deliberately reckless? These are extreme, untrue (as far as I know), and quite rude charges against not just public figures but private citizens, which I assume would include myself since I can't remember anyone other than Beathan who has taken a stronger or more consistent stand against the excesses of your Judiciary Act.[/quote:3rs9t44w]

I have given many such specific examples. Dishonesty includes making a claim without being able to support it with reasons (refusing to respond to requests for specific reasons, or responding with strings of pejorative adjectives in place of reasons, or responding with mere accusations that I do not understand, or responding by deliberately misrepresenting my arguments), or making unfounded personal accusations. It also includes purporting to act for reasons which are not the real reasons for which one is acting, and purporting to agree a compromise, only to do whatever one can immediately afterwards to undermine and destroy that compromise and gain further concessions. Recklessness includes destroying a system into which much thought and care (and literally months of work) has gone without adequate or clearly explained reasons, with little thought, and replacing it with a grossly ill-conceived and under-specified system, again with no thought as to the consequences of doing so, and a deliberate refusal even to attempt to entertain such thought. Disruptiveness includes incessant unjustified and knowingly ill-founded personal attacks, and attempts deliberately to destabilise a system upon which much effort has been expended and upon which a true, principled compromise has been reached specifically in order to impose their agenda on everyone and purposely destroy the compromise. And I do not agree for one moment, for all the reasons that I have already given, and for all the lack of reasoning that I have many times exposed in those who claim the contrary, that the judicial system created by the Judiciary Act has any "excesses".

[quote:3rs9t44w]By the way, you can call us "extremists" if you'd like (though I find the word rather empty in this context), but "anti-judiciary" is a bad moniker as we have all suggested forms of a judiciary which might work better in our context.[/quote:3rs9t44w]

By "anti-judiciary extremists" I mean those who will stop at nothing or next to nothing to destroy the judiciary as created by the Judiciary Act.

[quote:3rs9t44w]I can't even imagine what you might do if someone leveled these kinds of charges against you (which they haven't, as far as I know).[/quote:3rs9t44w]

People have levelled far worse, and deliberately failed even to attempt to provide reasons in support, or even retract accusations that have been conclusively proven to be false (such as the accusation made by Jon Seattle that I deliberately designed the judicial qualification process to make sure that I remained the only judge).

[quote:3rs9t44w]Do you believe you are above the "unenlightened masses" here?[/quote:3rs9t44w]

I believe that anybody who is honest is above anybody who is dishonest, that anybody who is prepared to engage in reasoned debate is above anybody who is impervious to reason, and continues to criticise somebody's work whilst refusing to show how the arguments against their arguments are flawed, that those who believe that, once a compromise is made in principle by those with the power to do so on behalf of everyone, it should be respected resolutely are above those who believe that a concluded compromise may be undermined by any means possible to secure additional concessions from the other side, and that those who seek to create are above those who merely seek to destroy.

[quote:3rs9t44w]As I've suggested for several weeks, try your system privately and prove it works outside of force. If it can't work because there is no force behind it, it won't work in the CDS anyway since the enforcement mechanisms of the CDS are unalterably weak. If it does work, you've proven us all wrong. In any case, don't give up, and definitely don't become bitter towards a community of which you have become an important part.[/quote:3rs9t44w]

And as I have explained before, more than once now, enforceability is a key component of a judicial system, without which it is wholly useless. One can no more try a judicial system without enforceability than one can test-drive a car without wheels. (You will no doubt recall the Superior Court of SecondLife from 2005 that was utterly ignored precisely because it had no enforceability). Why have you ignored what I have written on this and again made the same suggestion as I have repeatedly explained before is wholly pointless?

(Incidentally, if you think that the enforcement mechanisms in the CDS are so weak as to be no better than nothing, why do you care one iota what the judicial system that has what you claim are non-powers is like?)

Ashcroft Burnham

Where reason fails, all hope is lost.
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Pelanor Eldrich
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Personalities, populism, pompous pedantry and perplexion...

Post by Pelanor Eldrich »

I was the only RA member of 5 who wholly supported the Judiciary Act from beginning to end. We worked hard to negotiate a compromise, then unanimously approved it on 3 occasions (to get SC approval). It was not vetoed by the executive. It was never fully tested and did not hear a single case. As far as I'm aware, I was the only RA member to file a case.

General support for the JA began to erode, in my opinion, due to several factors:
[list:3d4issfy]The perception of the Judiciary as a one man show
The perception that Ashcroft could use the JA as a way to alter the balance of gov't power
The perception that the current implementation of the JA was overly complex to work effectively in the CDS
The perception that only legal professionals could truly access the institution
The perception that the Judiciary was excessively ethnocentric (British)[/list:u:3d4issfy]

The Ashcroft Judiciary could effectively function independently of the CDS. In fact it could be an indepedent institution used by all of SL including the CDS. One of the criticisms of any CDS judiciary was the bias in ruling against citizens or gov't when hearing cases brought forward by non-citizens.

The problem, of course, as Ashcroft aptly points out, is that it cannot function without enforcement. CDS enforcement is weak enough as it is. Some kind of large bank/escrow service would be needed to hold assets for any kind of gov't independent judiciary to have a chance of working. All of the serious previous attempts at binding SL conflict resolution failed in no small part due to lack of enforcement.

I do hope we can give this another try within the CDS after the election. I also hope that Ashcroft will stay on to help us with it.

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Post by Gxeremio Dimsum »

[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":saycpd0v]Dishonesty includes making a claim without being able to support it with reasons [/quote:saycpd0v]

Really? I disagree with your redefinition of a fairly clear word.

[quote:saycpd0v]It also includes purporting to act for reasons which are not the real reasons for which one is acting, and purporting to agree a compromise, only to do whatever one can immediately afterwards to undermine and destroy that compromise and gain further concessions. [/quote:saycpd0v]

I agreed to a compromise someone proposed (not you) almost immediately, but it was not a two-party talk. You were not in on it, and neither were many others. So the talks broke down, not among those who agreed, but among those who didn't sign on.

[quote:saycpd0v]Recklessness includes destroying a system into which much thought and care (and literally months of work) has gone without adequate or clearly explained reasons, with little thought, and replacing it with a grossly ill-conceived and under-specified system, again with no thought as to the consequences of doing so, and a deliberate refusal even to attempt to entertain such thought.[/quote:saycpd0v]

Ash, [i:saycpd0v]it's not your government[/i:saycpd0v]. You are one citizen among many and no matter how well-conceived a plan is (in the eyes of the person who created it), the People retain the right to say how they will be governed.

[quote:saycpd0v]Disruptiveness includes incessant unjustified and knowingly ill-founded personal attacks, and attempts deliberately to destabilise a system upon which much effort has been expended and upon which a true, principled compromise has been reached specifically in order to impose their agenda on everyone and purposely destroy the compromise.[/quote:saycpd0v]

My perception is that your support eroded when you began to "bring up" issues that, in fact, people had not assented to (though they may have passed the Act in which they were couched). I know of no real personal attacks that were not foundational to reasonable arguments against the JA. Playing the pity card might work better if you had presented some humanity throughout the process, or were principled in your restraint of attacks on others (such as in this thread).

[quote:saycpd0v]And I do not agree for one moment, for all the reasons that I have already given, and for all the lack of reasoning that I have many times exposed in those who claim the contrary, that the judicial system created by the Judiciary Act has any "excesses".[/quote:saycpd0v]

Obviously you would not agree, but will you bend to the democratic government that you tried to beat me over the head with in earlier posts?

[quote:saycpd0v]By "anti-judiciary extremists" I mean those who will stop at nothing or next to nothing to destroy the judiciary as created by the Judiciary Act.[/quote:saycpd0v]

Thanks for that clarification. But if you were opposed to me making Esperato the mandatory language of the CDS, I wouldn't be right in calling you an "anti-language extremist", would I?

[quote:saycpd0v]And as I have explained before, more than once now, enforceability is a key component of a judicial system, without which it is wholly useless. One can no more try a judicial system without enforceability than one can test-drive a car without wheels. (You will no doubt recall the Superior Court of SecondLife from 2005 that was utterly ignored precisely because it had no enforceability). Why have you ignored what I have written on this and again made the same suggestion as I have repeatedly explained before is wholly pointless?[/quote:saycpd0v]

I haven't ignored you, I have made a reasonable point - force is not really possible here in SL, so if a judiciary truly does depend on enforceability, then there CAN be no judiciary in SL. I, however, believe that a judiciary can be built on principles other than force, and have said so repeatedly.

[quote:saycpd0v](Incidentally, if you think that the enforcement mechanisms in the CDS are so weak as to be no better than nothing, why do you care one iota what the judicial system that has what you claim are non-powers is like?)[/quote:saycpd0v]

Because attempts to impose force (which if tried against me would result in, as I have said, my departure from the community and thus neither of us getting what we want) would be a real pain in the neck. The Judiciary Act was kind of like a child that always wanted its way; some of its demands would be appeased (give me a toy! pay this small fine!) and some wouldn't (I want a pony right now! take this harsh punishment or else!), but in any case it would be a great annoyance.

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The impossibility of justice in the CDS

Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Pelanor Eldrich":1pioviyf]General support for the JA began to erode, in my opinion, due to several factors:

The perception of the Judiciary as a one man show
The perception that Ashcroft could use the JA as a way to alter the balance of gov't power
The perception that the current implementation of the JA was overly complex to work effectively in the CDS
The perception that only legal professionals could truly access the institution
The perception that the Judiciary was excessively ethnocentric (British)[/quote:1pioviyf]

The notion that there was support that gradually eroded is, I am afraid, false: there were always people who supported it and those who did not support it: as far as I am aware, only one person (Pat) actually changed his opinion on the desirability of the project - others merely (wholly improperly) gave into those who did not like it in the first place.

[quote="Pelanor Eldrich":1pioviyf]The Ashcroft Judiciary could effectively function independently of the CDS. In fact it could be an indepedent institution used by all of SL including the CDS. One of the criticisms of any CDS judiciary was the bias in ruling against citizens or gov't when hearing cases brought forward by non-citizens.

The problem, of course, as Ashcroft aptly points out, is that it cannot function without enforcement. CDS enforcement is weak enough as it is. Some kind of large bank/escrow service would be needed to hold assets for any kind of gov't independent judiciary to have a chance of working. All of the serious previous attempts at binding SL conflict resolution failed in no small part due to lack of enforcement.[/quote:1pioviyf]

There is no point in having a permanent escrow, since such an escrow is, for all effective purposes, lost to the user when it is put down in any case. What would be needed is a liquid escrow, of the sort that I propose, whereby a person could authorise an institution to remove up to a certain amount from that person's Linden dollar account at any time in the future. That, of course, would need to be hard-coded.

[quote:1pioviyf]I do hope we can give this another try within the CDS after the election. I also hope that Ashcroft will stay on to help us with it.[/quote:1pioviyf]

I am afraid that that will not be possible. I do not believe in throwing good money after bad, and the same goes for my valuable time. I will remain a citizen until the polls in the election close, but no longer. The utterly breathtaking irresponsibility of the way in which this government has acted in destroying a judicial system because it rejects those features that I made abundantly clear from the start would be and ought to be present (as Pat acknowledged), even though the arguments against those very features were considered and rejected at the time that the system was approved, means that I have no desire to contribute anything further to this community, and strongly suggest that nobody else ever be so foolish as to attempt to do so ever again, either.

I do not believe that it is possible to create any fair and effective judicial system in any community that is dominated or controlled by irrational anti-intellectuals who purposely shun analytic consideration of issues in favour of insubstantial polemic, argumentation by recitation of pejorative adjectives, intellectual dishonesty, personal attacks, and/or grotesque intellectual laziness of the sorts that have overwhelmed the discussion of the judiciary, nor one in which people are expected, on pain of personal malice and accusations of insanity or inability to compromise, to subordinate their opinions of what is right to those who are most aggressive or vocal, irrespective of whether those people are able to provide any genuine, reasoned argument to substantiate what they claim.

It is also wholly impossible to create any fair judicial system in a community whose institutions of state (in this case, the legislature and the Scientific Council) are filled by people with people whose understanding of law is so dim that they are unable to extrapolate the consequences of a set of rules, unable to understand fully what the function of a judicial system is, are utterly impervious to the overwhelmingly obvious consequences of lack of detail, yet who simultaneously insist that they know best how to run a judicial system, and at the same time purposely refuse to engage in genuine, reasoned debate about what precisely they think that a judicial system should do, or how precisely it should do it.

The mind-bending and pervasive incompetence and unprofessionalism of the CDS's present institutions was most starkly illustrated in last week's meeting of the Scientific Council, in which, not only was it revealed that the procedures approved only the previous week had not even accounted for the overwhelmingly obvious eventuality of a tied vote on whether or not to ratify a bill, it became obvious that a member of the Council (Pat) had sent an e-mail to every other member, urging them to ratify a particular bill, and not resubmit it for rewriting, because he (a strong supporter of the bill himself) believed that there were political reasons for doing so, that he considered that the next iteration of the legislature would "not be like any other legislature", and in which it became quite apparent that the members of the Council did not even have the same understanding as each other of what it [i:1pioviyf]meant[/i:1pioviyf] to ratify a bill. When the vote as to whether to ratify the bill was tied, the Council spent around [i:1pioviyf]forty-five minutes[/i:1pioviyf] discussing what to do, and eventually decided to re-take the vote couched in different terms, which resulted in two people who had hitherto voted not to ratify it, but to submit it to be rewritten, to vote to ratify it, but "recommend" that it be rewritten. It was therefore quite clear that two people who had honestly believed that the Bill was unconstitutional had nonetheless voted to ratify it just out of convenience, in consequence of not even having a rule to deal with a tied vote. (It is quite apparent that they cannot have changed their view on the constitutionality itself, since the substantive constitutionality was not discussed at all during the forty-five minutes).

It was at that meeting that I realised that, even if the Judiciary Act was restored, and the judiciary implemented as I had always intended, there would be no prospect of real, lasting, long-term justice in the CDS, because the impoverished understanding, hapless amateurism and crushing incompetence extends far too deep.

Although certain people with warped views insist that professionalism is evil, professionalism is really about more than getting paid: it is about dedicating oneself to becoming exceptionally skilled in a particular field so that there can be far more achievement in that field than there could be by people not so dedicated; it is about professional detachment from the work that one undertakes; it is about always putting one's professional duty above one's own personal interests; it is about having and always maintaining a rigorous standard of professional ethics; and it is about never being satisfied with anything less than the very best that can be achieved, even if it means a great deal more hard work than might otherwise be undertaken. Professionals do not, as officials in the CDS pervasively do, fudge things, or make do with what, at first glance, seems to be approximately adequate, or do whatever of those things that will achieve something approximating what one is aiming for that takes the least work, or do what one is seeking to do in whatever way seems the most "fun", or do things in a particular way just to make it easy for everybody to join in. Professionals believe in putting in as much work as is necessary to get things as good as they can be, and that professionalism takes dedication, hard work and skill. Professionalism means recognising that nothing is worth doing unless it is worth doing, at the very least, properly. Professionalism means recognising that jacks of all trades are masters of none, and that one should strive to achieve excellence in whatever field in which one has skill and to which one has chosen to dedicate oneself, and recognise that other fields are better left to those who have similarly chosen to do the same in relation thereto, for the benefit of all. It is that sort of professionalism that is absolutely necessary to make the extremely difficult, unavoidably complicated, and highly skilled task of creating and running a truly fair judicial system even remotely possible, and it is that sort of professional attitude that is, apart from many of the people who are professionals of one sort or another in the first life, dangerously absent in the CDS.

All of this means that, if there is ever going to be justice in SecondLife, it will most certainly not, at least for the foreseeable future, ever be in the CDS. Since I came to SecondLife with the sole purpose of creating and participating in a serious, professional, and, above all, just legal system, it is quite apparent that I have been entirely wasting my time over the last five or so months with this amateurish government most of whose members take the exercise no more seriously than one might a school debating club.

All that remains of worth in the CDS are the pretty buildings and a few good people (such as Pelanor, who seems to have been the only member of the present legislature who understood the importance of taking law and government seriously). Those, and no doubt their numbers are growing, who believe that what SecondLife needs, somewhere at least, is a [i:1pioviyf]serious[/i:1pioviyf] government, with a [i:1pioviyf]serious[/i:1pioviyf] legal system would be far better off not wasting their energies (and Linden dollars) on the CDS, which is evidently quite incapable of meeting those aims. Those who are here for the pretty buildings and the nice people will no doubt come to realise that there are pretty buildings and nice people elsewhere, too, and that the nice people here can be contacted and interacted with even by those who do not spend their hard-earned Lindens propping up the destitute institution that is the CDS. If the Local Government Study Group succeeds in its aims, there will eventually (and hopefully sooner, rather than later) be a far greater opportunity than there is now to create truly serious and professional class governments, with truly serious, professional, and just legal systems.

Ashcroft Burnham

Where reason fails, all hope is lost.
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