Free speech on the forums

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Gxeremio Dimsum
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Post by Gxeremio Dimsum »

[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":3m3lq16p]

It does not exist in the CDS either...

The constitution explicitly provides, therefore, that only the Courts of Common Jurisdiction (or, in special, limited circumstances, the Court of Scientific Council) may interpret the law. Furthermore, the constitution does not grant the legislature any power to interpret the law, and bodies only have those powers expressly granted to them by the constitution.[/quote:3m3lq16p]

In that case, I ask the RA to do what needs to be done on this issue.

Who wrote that part of the law reserving such wide powers for the judiciary alone?

Do we have any part of the CDS constitution that reserves whatever powers are not explicitly given to the RA, or to the People? I'd look for it, but I really don't have the time to delve into the monstrosity that our Constitution has become.

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Ashcroft Burnham
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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Gxeremio Dimsum":1xhhj2mx]Dear friend, you are the only person I can ever remeber having read who has invoked the protection of that rule as a response to criticism on any of the CDS forums. If you had never complained, I would never have needed to ask for a clarification of the rule. And I don't think anyone wants to deter people from posting, but slowing down the pace of posts would sure be nice! ;)[/quote:1xhhj2mx]

What does this have to do with anything? I am entirely entitled to take exception to attacks on my character of the kind expressly prohibited by forum moderation guidelines. The invocation of a rule is not in and of itself a reason to abolish it. And why do you (or can you) not address my point on the importance of civility?

[quote:1xhhj2mx]Ash, Ash, Ash. Again, I think the question hinges on what is an attack on "character" rather than calling a public official onto the carpet for demonstrated temperment issues.[/quote:1xhhj2mx]

What is temprament but a subset of character?

[quote:1xhhj2mx]For example, you've said that under your system of lifetime judicial appointments someone can be impeached for insanity; how will their sanity ever be called into question if that is considered an attack on character?[/quote:1xhhj2mx]

Why do you think that all communication must occur on the forums? There is, of course, no equivalent to a web forum for any real-life nation in the world, and they get along fine with communications. To impeach a judge for insanity, one would simply issue some unspecified originating process in the Court of Scientific Council (I write unspecified because neither the Dean of the Scientific Council nor the legislature has yet prescribed any procedure for the Court of Scientific Council), and the matter would (presumably, depending on the procedures) be determined by the evidence of witnesses in court.

[quote:1xhhj2mx]I know how I have responded to attacks on my character and mental ability on these forums: angrily. When I did so I was warned as being in violation of the guidelines. Odd, isn't it?[/quote:1xhhj2mx]

Perhaps if you had raised the issue with the moderator, instead of responding by making what was undoubtedly a personal attack yourself, you might have got further - if, that is, the moderator agreed with you that what you were complaining about really was a personal attack, rather than a response to the argument itself.

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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Gxeremio Dimsum":323yqrqj]In that case, I ask the RA to do what needs to be done on this issue.[/quote:323yqrqj]

What, exactly, do you think needs to be done?

[quote:323yqrqj]Who wrote that part of the law reserving such wide powers for the judiciary alone?[/quote:323yqrqj]

What relevance is that? The judiciary is, by its very nature, the body that interprets the law. The doctrine of the separation of the powers entails that it is the only body that ought have any power to interpret the law. Do you disagree with the doctrine of the separation of the powers?

[quote:323yqrqj]Do we have any part of the CDS constitution that reserves whatever powers are not explicitly given to the RA, or to the People? I'd look for it, but I really don't have the time to delve into the monstrosity that our Constitution has become.[/quote:323yqrqj]

What do you mean by "reserves" here, exactly? Since the constitution is the only basis for any public body to have any power, it necessarily follows that those public bodies only have those powers expressly granted to them by that very same constitution.

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Gxeremio Dimsum
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Post by Gxeremio Dimsum »

[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":14oep8a2][quote="Gxeremio Dimsum":14oep8a2][quote:14oep8a2]Who wrote that part of the law reserving such wide powers for the judiciary alone?[/quote:14oep8a2]

What relevance is that? [/quote:14oep8a2][/quote:14oep8a2]

You really don't know what relevance that has to the question? You must not be as shrewd as I thought.

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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Gxeremio Dimsum":qem6evtm]You really don't know what relevance that has to the question? You must not be as shrewd as I thought.[/quote:qem6evtm]

No, you tell me please, why you think that is relevant.

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Post by Gxeremio Dimsum »

[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":1ttpf7di][quote="Gxeremio Dimsum":1ttpf7di]You really don't know what relevance that has to the question? You must not be as shrewd as I thought.[/quote:1ttpf7di]

No, you tell me please, why you think that is relevant.[/quote:1ttpf7di]

Because it seems like if you wrote it, and you exclusively benefit from it, that the situation should be carefully scrutinized to make sure everything is on the up and up.

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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Gxeremio Dimsum":c5ujlyk7]Because it seems like if you wrote it, and you exclusively benefit from it, that the situation should be carefully scrutinized to make sure everything is on the up and up.[/quote:c5ujlyk7]

Why on earth do you think that I am the only person who benefits from the separation of the powers?

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Post by Gxeremio Dimsum »

[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":29j6avvz][quote="Gxeremio Dimsum":29j6avvz]Because it seems like if you wrote it, and you exclusively benefit from it, that the situation should be carefully scrutinized to make sure everything is on the up and up.[/quote:29j6avvz]

Why on earth do you think that I am the only person who benefits from the separation of the powers?[/quote:29j6avvz]

Straw man! Straw man! :)

I was clearly talking about the part of the constitution you quoted to me above, not the idea of separation of powers in general, or rather your interpretation of that idea, which as we have concluded here is not the same in the US, at least so far as whether or not legislatures can make a judgment on something or not.

You keep it up, and I'm gonna actually dig through that blasted Constitutional mess to see if the other branches powers are so *ahem* explicitly laid out and protected for those branches alone.

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Post by Beathan »

Apropos.

I have appealed the recent warning I received in the thread on the Simplicity Party meeting. In that appeal, I have also asked the SC to state the punitive structure of forum moderations and to reconcile the forum rules with the UDHR. Hopefully the issues raised in this thread will be formally dealt with by the SC on this appeal.

A copy of my appeal card is below.

Beathan

[quote:2lhetm55]On Tuesday, December 26, I was one person subjected to the following warning:
This thread has been locked in accordance with article 5.5 of the Forum Moderation Guidelines:
Quote:
"5.5: A moderator may proactively decide to lock a thread if it has drifted from its original topic, contains posts that are bordering on being in violation with this document or are in other ways deemed to be detrimental to the purpose of the forums. The moderator will post a message in the thread giving justification for locking the thread. "

The thread has been locked because it contains discussions of Roman history and of the Judiciary Act: An exciting topic which may be discussed in a total of three different forums on this site but not in the events forum, the description of which reads:
Quote:
"Announcements of activities and events in Neufreistadt"

I maintain that it is permitted to post in extension of an announcement in this forum but only in so far as it pertains to matters directly related to the event in question. Topics falling under this definition include but are not limited to:
Event transcripts, corrections of initial announcement, questions in relation to the event, related events, other kinds of follow-ups

The following posters have posted in violation of these guidelines and are therefore warned that repeated infringements may result in sanctioning:
- Ashcroft Burnham (6 times)
- Publius Crabgrass (6 times)
- Michaelmanen (6 times)
- Gxeremio Dimsum (1 time)
- Beathan (8 times)
- Oni Jiutai (1 time)
- Fernando Book (1 time)

The following guidelines are considered to have been violated:
Quote:
3.2: Make sure that the topic of your post falls within the subject of the forum in question. Notice that some forums are intended for announcements or questions only and thus have certain restrictions on who may post there.

3.3: When responding to a post, consider if the topic has drifted away from that of the original post and if so, consider posting your reply as a separate thread.

This decision may be appealed to the Scientific Council by anyone who feels wrongly admonished or that the sanction is disproportionate in accordance with provision 7.1 of the Forum Moderation Guidelines:
Quote:
7.1: The decision of a moderator is subject to Neufreistadt jurisdiction and the citizen affected by the decision may therefore lodge an appeal by email or note card in world to the Dean of the Scientific Council of Neufreistadt or his/her archivist.

I request that this warning be modified or removed insofar as it relates to me. The warning indicated that I posted eight off topic posts. However, two of my posts were duplicates of a proper post, and were deleted and had no content. The post they duplicated was a call to the moderators to do exactly what you did -- call a foul on the hijacking of the thread. Two other posts were similar calls for moderator intervention.

By my count, no more than three of my postings were tangential. Two were erased duplicates of a proper posting; two were postings that pointed out the diversion of the thread; and one was a response to Publius who gave his reason (a good one) for believing that the diversion actually served the greater interest of the thread. I request that the warning be modified to reflect these facts.

I also request that the S.C. clarify the penal effect of a warning. Is a warning a free pass, or will multiple warnings increase the possibility of, or require, a more serious sanction. For instance, will repeated yellow cards result in a red car and get a poster thrown off the pitch? If so, for how long?

I also request that the forum posting rules be clarified and reconciled with the UDHR protection of free expression of opinions, Article 19. As an official forum of the C.D.S., the forums are subject to the UDHR. The UDHR should trump any forum posting rule that contradicts the rights set forth in the UDHR.

I see two potentially applicable UDHR articles -- Article 12 and Article 19. Dimsum has posted a thread on this point.

Article 12 of the UDHR, as it relates to speech, is one of the most confusing, perhaps flawed, articles in the UDHR. On one hand, it protects personal correspondence from arbitrary interefence; on the other hand it prohibits attacks on honor or reputation. I take this to mean that communication channels shall be open -- but that states must provide some protection from defamation. However, having some rule against defamation does not tell us what that rule should be. First, truth is always a defense to defamation. Caveats in expression also avoid defamation. I am personally confident that I have not even approached defamation in any comment I have written anywhere in any post on these forums.

I also note that Article 12 does not require that we speak with decorum or Engish civility. Rather, it requires only that we avoid malicious and dishonest attacks on the intangible persons of our fellow human beings. We cannot make false statements about another's honor and reputation. This has two components -- first, it applies to statements (claims of fact -- rather than expressions of opinions or suggestion of potential fact); second, the factual claims must be false -- even intentionally false.

Unlike Article 12, Article 19 is very clear -- freedom of expression of opinions is absolute. Therefore, we can express our opinions about another's character -- even if our opinion is wrong -- provided we do not falsely claim to have facts casting the other into disrepute.

How do we reconcile the Articles? It's not hard: provided a person expresses doubts about the honor of another person, or about the deservedness of the other's reputation, as opinions of the speaker, rather than as facts, such expressions are protected and are not prohibited as defamation. However, if a person makes untrue claims that dishonor or demean another person, and makes those claims as claims of fact, not opinion, and without caveats such as ("it is possible that" or "perhaps"), then the statements are prohibited defamation.

In addition to a request for clarification and modification of the forum warning, I request clarification of the forum posting guidelines in light of the requirements of the UDHR.
[/quote:2lhetm55]

Let's keep things simple enough to be fair, substantive enough to be effective, and insightful enough to be good.
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Re: Free speech on the forums

Post by Justice Soothsayer »

[quote="Gxeremio Dimsum":3hrplh7e]I would like the RA to consider and pass a legislative judgment about free speech on the forums, particularly the ability to criticize or question public officials. How shall we balance Article 12 of the UDHR:

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

with Article 19:

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
?

If changes are needed to the forum posting guidelines, I ask that the RA name such changes.[/quote:3hrplh7e]
In light of Beathan's appeal to the SC on this issue, I think the RA should wait to see what the SC does.

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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Beathan":2qeqedl7]Apropos.

I have appealed the recent warning I received in the thread on the Simplicity Party meeting. In that appeal, I have also asked the SC to state the punitive structure of forum moderations and to reconcile the forum rules with the UDHR. Hopefully the issues raised in this thread will be formally dealt with by the SC on this appeal.

A copy of my appeal card is below.[/quote:2qeqedl7]

You do realise, don't you, that the parts of the constitution quoted above also entail that the Scientific Council no longer can appear forum moderation appeals, and that they should be heard by Courts of Common Jurisdiction?

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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Gxeremio Dimsum":1ptv5amz]Straw man! Straw man! :)

I was clearly talking about the part of the constitution you quoted to me above, not the idea of separation of powers in general, or rather your interpretation of that idea, which as we have concluded here is not the same in the US, at least so far as whether or not legislatures can make a judgment on something or not.[/quote:1ptv5amz]

The concept of the separation of the powers is that only the executive should perform executive functions, only the legislature should perform legislative functions, and only the judiciary should perform judicial functions. The concept of a "legislative judgment", therefore, is not an "interpretation" of the separation of the powers, but a derogation from it. It is not, therefore, a straw man representation of your argument to state that you are claiming that the expressly enforced separation of the powers in the constitution somehow benefits only me. You [i:1ptv5amz]still[/i:1ptv5amz] have not attempted to explain [i:1ptv5amz]how[/i:1ptv5amz] I personally benefit from that arrangement.

[quote:1ptv5amz]You keep it up, and I'm gonna actually dig through that blasted Constitutional mess to see if the other branches powers are so *ahem* explicitly laid out and protected for those branches alone.[/quote:1ptv5amz]

Keep what up, exactly?

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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":1kwjgvuu]You do realise, don't you, that the parts of the constitution quoted above also entail that the Scientific Council no longer can appear forum moderation appeals, and that they should be heard by Courts of Common Jurisdiction?[/quote:1kwjgvuu]The phrase "Get your tanks off our lawn!" comes to mind :).

Ash, I can see how a perverse reading of the Constitution as amended would lead you to think that forum moderation appeals are a matter the Courts of Common Jurisdiction could consider. But that is a usurpation of the service role of the Scientific Council and counter to the moderation rules guiding these forums. No one, myself included, imagined that the Judiciary Act would mean that forum moderation would become the task of the Courts.

You're not really helping your case here. Some citizens are out to paint you as a power-crazed megalomaniac who wants to take over the CDS (and SL, if we include non-citizen paranoiacs); it doesn't help matters if you unilaterally extend the Courts' remit to the detriment of the existing government institutions.

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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Patroklus Murakami":uo546t0k]Ash, I can see how a perverse reading of the Constitution as amended would lead you to think that forum moderation appeals are a matter the Courts of Common Jurisdiction could consider. But that is a usurpation of the service role of the Scientific Council and counter to the moderation rules guiding these forums. No one, myself included, imagined that the Judiciary Act would mean that forum moderation would become the task of the Courts.[/quote:uo546t0k]

Pat, it was clearly set out in [url=http://forums.neufreistadt.info/viewtop ... m:uo546t0k]my original post on developing our judicial system[/url:uo546t0k] (look under "classification of originating process") that moderatorial appeals would be a matter for Courts of Common Jurisdiction under the legal system that was then proposed and is now implemented. Furthermore, the original code of procedure made clear that notices of moderatorial appeal were to be filed in a Court of Common Jurisdiction. It cannot, therefore, be the case that it was not anticipated in advance that the Courts of Common Jurisdiction would have the power to hold moderatorial appeals. I do not agree, I am afraid, that it is "perverse" to read the constitution, which provides,

[quote="The constitution":uo546t0k]9. Subject to any powers of the Scientific Council when sitting as a court expressly stated in the text of this Constitution, Courts of Common Jurisdiction, and only Courts of Common Jurisdiction, shall have the power when giving judgment on a disputed matter between two or more parties (who must be residents of SecondLife or bodies corporate, including states, recognised as such by the law of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, but who need not be citizens of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators): –

(a) to make binding determinations of the rights, duties, powers, privileges, immunities, liabilities and disabilities of any or all such parties according to the law of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators;

(b) to make binding determinations of any facts in dispute between any or all such parties, provided that making such determinations are necessary in order to make such a determination as mentioned in paragraph (a) above, or (c) below;

(c) subject to either (i) a party formally accepting, or (ii) a court finding as a fact at a trial held in accordance with law that a party's conduct is culpable, to impose upon that party in respect of that conduct any penalty, including, but not limited to, banishment from any or all territory of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, either permanently or for such shorter period as shall be specified by the court, and forfeiture of any SecondLife asset (including debts and other such duties owed thereto), either immediately or suspended on such conditions as the court may prescribe;

(d) to make any non-penal orders such as to give effect to the rights, duties, powers, privileges, immunities, liabilities and disabilities of any party according to the law of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, including any law relating to judicial procedure, or any other person or body on behalf of whom any party makes any claim, or to give effect to any penalty imposed by any Court of Common Jurisdiction in accordance with paragraph (c) above; and

(e) to order that any person be removed from the court-house at which any trial or any other hearing is being held, or, if he or she refuses so to be removed, banished from the Confederation of Democratic Simulators for the duration of that trial or other hearing (and for up to one hour thereafter) on the ground that that person is disrupting court proceedings, improperly interfering with the administration of justice, or attempting to do so,[/quote:uo546t0k]

as so entailing; since hearing an appeal of forum moderation would entail making binding determinations of the rights, duties, powers, privileges, immunities, liabilities and disabilities of any or all such parties according to the law of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators on a disputed matter between two or more such parties, it follows that such an appeal must be heard in a Court of Common Jurisdiction.

Furthermore, nobody is suggesting that front-line forum moderation is the domain of the courts; only that appeals should be heard in Courts of Common Jurisdiction, rather than the Court of Scientific Council (whose jurisdiction is confined to impeachment hearings and special appeals from Courts of Common Jurisdiction).

Indeed, even if the Scientific Council were to purport to sit otherwise than as a court and hear a moderatorial appeal, nothing would stop any of the parties thereto (or any third party substantially affected by the decision) seeking judicial review of the Council's decision in a Court of Common Jurisdiction, since the Scientific Council's decisions only bind the Courts of Common Jurisdiction (1) when it is ratifying legislation (and then only to the extent that the Courts of Common Jurisdiction must follow ratified legislation), and (2) when it is sitting as a court.

There is nothing, I suppose, that would stop the Scientific Council reviewing its own decision on the application of any party, but, given the expressly enumerated powers of the Council set out in the constitution as regards the jurisdiction of the Courts of Common Jurisdiction, that would not bind any Court of Common Jurisdiction should any party wish to take it further.

[quote:uo546t0k]You're not really helping your case here. Some citizens are out to paint you as a power-crazed megalomaniac who wants to take over the CDS (and SL, if we include non-citizen paranoiacs); it doesn't help matters if you unilaterally extend the Courts' remit to the detriment of the existing government institutions.[/quote:uo546t0k]

Why do you think that it is a detriment to the Scientific Council if it is no longer burdened with moderatorial appeals? Indeed, some may question the independence of an appeals process where it is the same body hearing the appeal as made the decision against which the appeal is being heard.

In any event, I cannot imagine how stating that the Courts of Common Jurisdiction always have had power to hear moderatorial appeals is any reason to believe that I am some sort of megalomaniac, especially since, obviously, I would not hear this particular case myself, since the thread in question involves me.

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Patroklus Murakami
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Let's take this outside

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Ash

Since this thread is supposed to be about freedom of speech on the forums I suggest we take this discussion relating to who gets to moderate the forums elsewhere. I will post a new thread in 'Judiciary Discussion' to continue the discussion.

Edit: the new thread is [url=http://forums.neufreistadt.info/viewtop ... 7:tbgihmme]here[/url:tbgihmme]

Last edited by Patroklus Murakami on Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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