Dec. 27th transcript

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Aliasi Stonebender
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Dec. 27th transcript

Post by Aliasi Stonebender »

Diderot Mirabeau: hello Brian ... good to see you
Diderot Mirabeau: if you touch the plywood prim you'll receive a copy of the meeting documents
Brian Livingston: Same to you :) My busy season just ended pretty much so I will be on a bit more
Diderot Mirabeau: that's good news!
Diderot Mirabeau: maybe we can talk you into standing for the RA then :-)
Aliasi Stonebender: me too, I hope.
Diderot Mirabeau: what about you Aliasi .. would you reconsider your opinion of earlier or do you feel there's enough to be done in the executive as it is?
Aliasi Stonebender: I'm in no particular mood to run for RA again, no.
Aliasi Stonebender: having to go once-a-month as I'm required now is bad enough.
Brian Livingston: who do we have for candidates as of now?
Diderot Mirabeau: you'd enjoy the opportunity for some nice discussions with the Carebears if they manage to get voted in :-)
Diderot Mirabeau: I am willing to stand
Aliasi Stonebender: I'm happier as an executive, when I get an idea in my head I can just do it.
Diderot Mirabeau: Rudy was too but had to withdraw for medical reasons
Brian Livingston nods
Diderot Mirabeau: Publius and Beathan have indicated they might be available if holding other positions would not prevent them from it
Diderot Mirabeau: I'd prefer if we could have a stock of 3 - 4 candidates to draw from .. I have a feeling it might be a good election for us
Diderot Mirabeau: in any case I hope people would be willing to re-assess if after the election it turns out we have an unfilled seat ... by then it would be for the faction leader to appoint someone
Diderot Mirabeau: anyway .. time is drawing to a close .. I will give people one more minute
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Diderot Mirabeau: are you happy with me 'directing' the meeting?
Aliasi Stonebender: feel free, Diderot, you're doin' the work here.
Diderot Mirabeau: okay I just finished IM'ing the noshows with offers of TP
Diderot Mirabeau: so let's jump right into it
Diderot Mirabeau: did everyone receiv a copy of the proposed agenda and meeting documents?
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Same as the plywood-agenda I suppose.
Brian Livingston: got one :)
Diderot Mirabeau: indeed Topgenosse!
Diderot Mirabeau: if so I'd like you to take a look at the agenda and tell me if you feel there are things that should be added?
Diderot Mirabeau: as you'll notice the last item is pretty open-ended so the faster we can go through the preceding items the more opportunity there will be to discuss "the rest"
Diderot Mirabeau: I can reveal already now that I have a little surprise for you under that last item
Diderot Mirabeau: Aliasi I remember you mentioning wanting to discuss the question of simplicity relative to elegance in the forums .. do you feel that can be covered under the exisiting agenda?
Diderot Mirabeau coughs
Diderot Mirabeau: hmm ... well .. if there are no objections then let us commence on the basis of the present agenda
Brian Livingston: Sounds good to me
Diderot Mirabeau: you should be in possession of our entire collection of policy documents .. as you will notice our constructive members have been busy producing draft policy positions in a number of "major" areas that we intend to deal with as part of our political platform .. they are:
Aliasi Stonebender: sorry
Aliasi Stonebender: had to make an enegerncy bio run
Diderot Mirabeau: np Aliasi .. feel free to intervene
Aliasi Stonebender: let's get through the established stuff. I can talk later.
Diderot Mirabeau: governing the RA ... clearing out all the old, unused bills ... making the Constitution more accessible ... simplifying covenants if possible .. having a philosophy on territorial expansion ... clearing up the mess that is the judiciary ... promoting democratic governance in SL at wide ... making the community life in CDS more vibrant ... and getting businesses to work better in CDS
Diderot Mirabeau: at the top of it all of course we have the proposed manifesto, which lays out some conceptual justification for why simplicity is a desirable trait in government and politics
Diderot Mirabeau: opening up is the manifesto
Diderot Mirabeau: it's just a sort of values statement ...
Diderot Mirabeau: why is simplicity good ... how do we intend to go about achieving simplicity
Diderot Mirabeau: any comments to that?
Aliasi Stonebender: well, that's where my elegance speech comes in
Diderot Mirabeau: yes?
Aliasi Stonebender: Just to use an example, Ashcroft posted a RL harassment law and compared it to a simple one-line "Nobody may harass anyone else" statement.
Aliasi Stonebender: I feel his comparison was a bit fallacious, since it seemed he was deliberately over-simplifying there.
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TOPGenosse Brouwer: Hi Beathan
Aliasi Stonebender: this isn't to say complexity isn't going to be needed for somethings, but we've had a lot of proposals for the gratuitious.
Diderot Mirabeau: yes ... we have to take care not to be accused of wanting to achieve simplicity at any cost ... i.e. of failing to address the complexity of RL problems and situations in favour of some ideal but vague notion of "simplicity"
Beathan Vale: sorry I'm late
Diderot Mirabeau: hi Beathan and welcome
Diderot Mirabeau: touch the plywood box for a copy of the meeting documents please
Diderot Mirabeau: btw this meeting is being recorded and we expect to publish the transcript in the forum
Aliasi Stonebender: that's why I posted about elegance -since I think that's what we've been aiming for, even without the words. I just had the insight that the concept applied when I posted.
Beathan Vale: We should try to say "simple and elegant solutions" --instead of "simplicity" I think
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Diderot Mirabeau: so turning back to the specific document we are discussing which is the manifesto .. can we change/add anything there to make it better encompass the complementary ideal of effectiveness resulting in elegance?
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Diderot Mirabeau: we may want to add Aliasi's forum clarification in there somewhere to make it more explicit that is what we intend to achieve?
Diderot Mirabeau: any comments?
Beathan Vale: just a sec -- calling up the doc
Aliasi Stonebender: It could be useful, to prevent frivolous political attacks.
Diderot Mirabeau: yes - let's put elegance in there as a pre-emptive strike
Diderot Mirabeau gives Beathan 30 secs
Beathan Vale: and use "solution" language also -- we aren't about nihilism -- we are about simpel solutions
Beathan Vale: computer running a bit slow
Brian Livingston: *nods*
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Diderot Mirabeau: I think Aliasi's forum post is written in a way that enables it to be added easily to the end of the manifesto as an explanatory elaboration
TOPGenosse Brouwer: From my outsider p.o.v. it seems logical that you guys mean "elegant & solution oriented" with "simplicity" ... Anyone in CDS is much too serious te be 'naive' .. But yes, using other words (elegance/solution) may help prevent political attacks (Ashcroft, or. .. Ashcroft :) )
Diderot Mirabeau: so I move that we decide that will be our resulting manifesto with a little editing .. also bearing in mind that we have to start campaigning any minute now
Diderot Mirabeau: and thank you Topgenosse for that valuable perspective
Diderot Mirabeau: let's vote about it
Diderot Mirabeau: all in favour of that proposal please say 'aye'
Brian Livingston: aye
Diderot Mirabeau: aye
Aliasi Stonebender: aye
TOPGenosse Brouwer: No member :)
Diderot Mirabeau: all against the proposal please say 'nay'
Diderot Mirabeau: right ... the motion carries .. ladies and gentleman we have a manifesto ...
Diderot Mirabeau: next up is the principles for RA governance
Diderot Mirabeau: introduced as an attempt to bring a new focus to the RA table ... and also to address some of the deficiencies of the procedure as we have seen it unfold in the last term ...
Diderot Mirabeau: where I believe much legislation has been somewhat ad hoc motivated
Diderot Mirabeau: rather than coming from a solid foundation of policy ... accordingly much of the RA's time has been bogged down in detailed discussion between special interest groups ...
Diderot Mirabeau: to counter those tendencies which will no doubt be reinforced as the RA and the CDS grow larger four principles are proposed:
Aliasi Stonebender: and, let's be honest, MOST of this term has been Judiciary Act wrangling, the passing of a bad law because it was seen that 'something' was needed.
Diderot Mirabeau: yes and my impression has been that the RA was happy to let one person do much of the work because a 5 person meeting is really incapable of dealing with such a topic in the frame of a two hour Saturday meeting
Diderot Mirabeau: here are some principles that I think may help bring more structure and ideally also more simplicity into the RA meetings:
Diderot Mirabeau: 1) Always try the simple approach first
Diderot Mirabeau: 2) Agree on a unifying vision for the community ... i.e. spend the first 1 or 2 RA meetings developing a vision that can encompass what we want to work towards .. so we have sort of delimited the area within which we can meaningfully discuss the value of our proposals in advance
Diderot Mirabeau: 3) Legislative timetable - devote specific windows of opportunity to legislation within sub-topics of the overall vision ... to counteract the RA's tendencies to allow any ad hoc legislation to be passed at any given moment ... and eventually clogging up the RA in hobby submissions that prevent it from addressing the real challenges of the community as perceived by the majority of the RA
Diderot Mirabeau: and finally 4) experiment with establishing some standing committees, which can go into greater detail in preparing legislation for presentation to the RA plenary ...
Diderot Mirabeau: any comments to this proposal?
Aliasi Stonebender: I don't see anything wrong with it m'self.
TOPGenosse Brouwer: I like 4 in the judiciary case.
Diderot Mirabeau: I don't see any hands moving so I move for adoption
Diderot Mirabeau: ah yes Topgenosse ... good point .. we have already seen part of how it may work in the case of the special commission on the judiciary ...
Diderot Mirabeau: let's vote ..
Beathan Vale: I think that we need to be careful with timetables and legislation restrictions to prevent the RA from losing flexilibility and the ability to respond to emerging issues
Diderot Mirabeau: we can have an item on the agenda saying "Other stuff" at the end to allow for that flexibility maybe?
Beathan Vale: yes -- that works for me
Diderot Mirabeau: I'll make a footnote that we should accommodate for that flexibility .. of course we should not be rigid .. it's really just a question of prioritisation for me
Beathan Vale: yep yep
Diderot Mirabeau: let's vote then ... anyone here in favour please say 'aye'
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Beathan Vale: aye
Diderot Mirabeau: aye
Brian Livingston: aye
Aliasi Stonebender: ayeaye
Diderot Mirabeau: right .. the proposal is adopted unanimously
Beathan Vale: welcome Pub
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Hi Publius.
Diderot Mirabeau: hi Publius and welcome
Publius Crabgrass: Hi
Diderot Mirabeau: touch the plywood prim to receivea copy of the meeting documents
Diderot Mirabeau: you're just in time for the kill bill trilogy
Diderot Mirabeau: btw the meeting is being recorded and a transcript will be published in the forums
Publius Crabgrass: thanks
Diderot Mirabeau: the kill bill trilogy is intended to make the existing body of legislation easier to navigate for (new) citizens ...
Diderot Mirabeau: it aims to clarify the status of historical bills ... clear out bills which history has made irrelevant and also to repeal laws which in the view of our ideology add unnecessary complexity
Diderot Mirabeau: as you have most likely noticed it is partitioned into three 'stages' each of which can be cut loose to be negotiated seperately
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Diderot Mirabeau: so basically it is a gun with three shots
Diderot Mirabeau: in succeeding order of controversy I imagine
Diderot Mirabeau: it targets 22 pieces of legislation ...
Beathan Vale: we should also discuss simplifying the Code by separating Acts that cover multiple subjects (such as the JA ) into single subject Acts
Beathan Vale: and perhaps abopt a "single subject" rule
Diderot Mirabeau: yes the question of omnibus bills is an interesting one indeed .. I think in general it is extremely unadvisable to start using those here simply because they add unnecessary complication to reading and understanding a bill
Diderot Mirabeau: I think such a principle might be incorporated into either constitutional simplification or RA governance
Beathan Vale: perfect
Diderot Mirabeau: since it's not really a problem with any of the existing acts save for the JA which will be addressed I believe by the constitutional simplification
Diderot Mirabeau: so barring any other comments on this .. I move that we proceed to vote on Kill Bill
Diderot Mirabeau: anyone in favour of Kill Bill Trilogy please say 'aye'
Publius Crabgrass: aye
Diderot Mirabeau: aye
Beathan Vale: aye
Diderot Mirabeau: anyone against Kill Bill Trilogy please say 'nay'
Brian Livingston: aye
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Diderot Mirabeau: thanks Brian .. duly noted :-)
Brian Livingston: hehe
Publius Crabgrass: any platform we can use Uma Thurman as a poster for is OK with me!
Diderot Mirabeau: right .. a majority of members present have adopted the Kill Bill Trilogy .. and lol at Publius :-)
Aliasi Stonebender: aye
Diderot Mirabeau: yes she should be our poster girl
Beathan Vale: Ah -- Tarantino -- the Voice of my generation
Diderot Mirabeau: thanks Aliasi .. the Kill Bill Trilogy has thus been adopted unanimously
Aliasi Stonebender: oh, oh, wait a moment
Diderot Mirabeau: yes?
Aliasi Stonebender grins.
Diderot Mirabeau: lol
TOPGenosse Brouwer wakes up, did I hear Uma Thurman?
Diderot Mirabeau: nice outfit!
TOPGenosse Brouwer: HAHAH
Beathan Vale: lol
Diderot Mirabeau: all you need now would be the sword I imagine ... I guess we can save that until its presentation before the RA :-P
Publius Crabgrass: lol
Publius Crabgrass: who needs Uman when we have Ali?
Aliasi Stonebender: I have a katana too, yes. ;)
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Diderot Mirabeau: next item .. constitutional simplification ... the proposal before you is not the most ambitious .. some people have in fact advocated complete constitutional reform .. i.e. starting from the bottom and devising a whole new constitution
Beathan Vale: or have advocated multiple or layered constitutions
Diderot Mirabeau: however my personal impression is that such a project would occupy the attention of the RA and our community for at least a full term and since there are so many other issues on our agenda I'd prefer to have a relatively 'pragmatic' process simply going through the constitution with a view to:
Beathan Vale: yes -- at least
Aliasi Stonebender: Rudy and myself for one... I think the constitution could maintain most of the actual 'on the ground' framework and institutions, just not patched so atrociously.
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Diderot Mirabeau: 1) Inserting a shared vision for our community
Diderot Mirabeau: 2) Simplifying the language to get rid of legalese and unclarity
Diderot Mirabeau: 3) identify parts of the text that is overdetailed and could be better put in a seperate act
Diderot Mirabeau: and possibly 4) identify some parts of the constitution that could be offered additional protection (i.e. founding philosophy / documents or similar) ... comments anyone?
Publius Crabgrass: I just finished putting the Constitution As Amended on the wiki
Brian Livingston: Ergh, i've gotta run. Pardon the interruption and I look forward to reading over the remainder of the transcript later :)
Publius Crabgrass: It was an itneresting exercise to track changes over time and see how the original elegance/simplicity of the document has changed.
Diderot Mirabeau: not at all Brian it was really nice having you here .. hope to see you running for the RA :-)
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Diderot Mirabeau: in what way did the elegance change .. was it the wording or was it more basic principles for "what to put in the constitution" that changed?
TOPGenosse Brouwer: On (1) : Doesnt this cause problems with "How seriously do we take SL" - a question asked in the Judiciary discussion. Any statements about (1) shouldn't devide people/opinions
Publius Crabgrass: the JA sharply changed much of the document
Publius Crabgrass: It had a fairly simple structure before that, but the legalese factor went way up.
Diderot Mirabeau: it's a good question TOpgenosse .. my aim with (1) would not be to create divisions but rather the opposite .. simply to try to find the limits for what we agree on .. and make that an exercise .. but you are right that there may be a problem about putting it in the consitution as such
Beathan Vale: did you do an evaluation of the Constitution as Amedned without the Judiciary Act Amendments -- or did all new Amendments have this effect?
Aliasi Stonebender: yeah... well, before, we were all non-legal-professionals.
Publius Crabgrass: actually, Beathan, it wasnt just the JA.
Beathan Vale: TOP -- we need to find common ground and build on it -- if we start at the surface, we will be bound up in surface turbulance
Publius Crabgrass: For instance, adding the Chancellor didn't follow the structure of the rest of the document
Beathan Vale: ah -- I see
Diderot Mirabeau: by the way people let me remind you of the usability of the "mute" button in the case where this meeting should be interrupted by lengthy diatribes not oriented towards the timely completion of this agenda
Diderot Mirabeau: not that this is happening now .. but considering that this is an open meeting
Beathan Vale: lol
Publius Crabgrass: We now seem to have five branches of government, but its not as easy to determine that as it was from the original document, where it was perfectly clear there were three brnahces of government.
Aliasi Stonebender: also, if someone's being actively disruptive, I can help with that.
Diderot Mirabeau: excellent
Diderot Mirabeau: I agree Beathan and Publius that there is huge scope for clarification there .. there is always the advantage when you write the constitution as a single exercise
Diderot Mirabeau: that you can put in the begining and introduction that defines the concepts
Diderot Mirabeau: and then go into detail later
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Publius > As a new guy, I don't think I knew there were 5 branchers ... As I remember from the doc's on the site there are 3 .. :-/
Diderot Mirabeau: whereas many amendments tend to work on a patchwork basis inserting a little detail here and there without taking into consideration the need to introduce all the concepts in the beginnning and gradually turn to their relation to each other
TOPGenosse Brouwer: So, clarification: please :)
Publius Crabgrass: well, Top, I'm counting the Judiciary and the Chancellor as seaprate branches
Beathan Vale: But - -the work Pub did in preparing the document as it now exists is a substantail step -- it gives us something to evaluate and modify to simplify and clarify it
Aliasi Stonebender: yes, although the Guild is very non-functional and disregarded currently.
Publius Crabgrass: true
Diderot Mirabeau: yes .. and hopefully such a constitutional revision committe could also review the text with a view to presenting a clearer _structure_ in the document
Aliasi Stonebender: Sudane still has Guildmaster powers is about it
Publius Crabgrass: there is a financial veto with Sudane, I think.
Aliasi Stonebender: also, the Judicary is *technically* under the Philosophical branch, though I agree that isnt' easily apparent
Beathan Vale: but there are real efforts to reform and resotre the Guild -- I think those show promise
Beathan Vale: Al -- I think Ash disagrees with that
Diderot Mirabeau: maybe we could insert that as part of the mandate under (2) ... review the structure of the document with a view to improving clarity of the concepts of the text and their relation to each other?
Publius Crabgrass: oh yes, Ash is much for "judicial independence", which means not being "under" anyone.
Beathan Vale: I see 4 branches with separate functions -- legislative; philosophical/judicial; executive (law enforcement); and civil service 9public work)
Diderot Mirabeau: anyway people let us not get carried away by the substance of the constitution here .. I agree there is much room for improvement in terms of clarity
Publius Crabgrass: yes, if 4 people cant agree on how many branches of govt exist, there is a clarity problem.
Diderot Mirabeau: hehe
Beathan Vale: I also think that the US Constitution would be better than it is if we had these 4 branches -- ratehr than combingin civil service with esecutice
TOPGenosse Brouwer: heheh
Beathan Vale: LOL
Aliasi Stonebender: Ash can believe what he likes, if the SC is acting as a supreme court, the judiciary is 'under'
Beathan Vale: Al -- not if the SC's review authority is limited to almost nothing
Aliasi Stonebender: except, you'll note, the SC itself disagrees with Ash. ;)
Diderot Mirabeau: so can we move the present proposal for adoption with the addition that 1) should be a community-reinforcing exercise and not a divise one and 2) that the revision should also review the structure with a view to bringing much needed clarity into the text?
Diderot Mirabeau: *divisive
Beathan Vale: True --= and the SC is the final arbiter on Constituional issues -- includeing the power of the Judiciary and the authority of the SC
Diderot Mirabeau: anyone in favour please say 'aye'
Beathan Vale: Aye
Publius Crabgrass: Aye
Aliasi Stonebender: aye
Diderot Mirabeau: aye
Diderot Mirabeau: unanimously adopted ... excellent :-)
Diderot Mirabeau: covenants ... I don't have much too add here to what Aliasi concluded in the forums .. except perhaps we could look into the issue of scripts ... 100 sqm per script seems to me a bit arbitrary and reality has changed since the time when that provision was written I believe
Diderot Mirabeau: *to
Beathan Vale: although Dimsum might still want his layered regional constitution and federal constitution approach
Diderot Mirabeau: I think Gxeremio's ambitions are to a large extent covered by the "Promoting Democratic Governance" policy proposal, which he has started drafting fortunately :-)
Aliasi Stonebender: well, at the time, scripts slowed everything on the sim down
Aliasi Stonebender: now, scripts mostly only slow other scripts down, so you're right.
Beathan Vale: yep yep
Diderot Mirabeau: yes I remember that too Aliasi .. I think the main distinction here in my view should be between scripts that are constantly active and therefore utilising CPU resources and scripts that are only activated by touch
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Right now I'm, technically, breaking the 1 script per 100 sqm law/coventant ... But not blantantly or anything, it could do with some adjustment .. I think I talked to Diderot abou tthat ..
Diderot Mirabeau: it seems a bit unfair in my view to require someone to own more than 100 sqm of land to have any other script on his property than the mandatory door script for example :-)
Diderot Mirabeau: hush TopGenosse! the transcript of this meeting is being published and you can be sure that our judiciary friends will read it .. you may find yourself before a _court_ before long :-)
Diderot Mirabeau: I think however that you are not the only one Topgenosse ...
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Shit, I'll get busted :)
Aliasi Stonebender: ah, but I'm the one who has to enforce the covenant, he's already in trouble.
Publius Crabgrass hopes someone will get too heavily sanctioned by moderators soon so as to set up the SC to make a decision on the scope of free public debate [nudge, nudge, Beathan].
Diderot Mirabeau: and I think we should be concerned with bringing our legislation in line with reality and what the constituency wants .. and since we can seemingly do so without coming into conflict with the lag-inhibiting original intention of the covenants ... I think it should be possible to change it
Diderot Mirabeau: hehe .. bring out your katana, Aliasi ;-)
Beathan Vale: Pub -- I'm on it -- I need to draft my appeal and submit it to Gwyn
TOPGenosse Brouwer: I totally agree w/ Diderot on the constantly active scripts distinciton
Beathan Vale: Hi Valerie
Valerie Bethune: hi beathan. sorry. i just wandered by.
Diderot Mirabeau: right ... after the public sanctioning of TopGenosse can we move to a vote on the adoption of our covenant policy?
Valerie Bethune: this sounds like politcial business. :-)
Diderot Mirabeau: anyone here who is a member of the Simplicity party and in favour of the covenant provision with the added script distinction please say 'aye'
Beathan Vale: Val -- yep -- Party meeting
Publius Crabgrass: aye
Aliasi Stonebender: aye
Beathan Vale: Aye
Diderot Mirabeau: (hello Valerie you are welcome to sit and observe / chime in .. but be warned it can be considered somewhat .. ehm technical!)
Diderot Mirabeau: aye
Diderot Mirabeau: okay it has been unanimously adopted ...
Diderot Mirabeau: next item .. territorial expansion ...
Diderot Mirabeau: it basically says we should
Valerie Bethune: sorry guys. bye.
Beathan Vale: and can we pass an "erogenous zone" ordinance to allow for commerical pornography in limited places -- such as certain houses to prevent emigration?
Diderot Mirabeau: 1. honour and reward artisans who help build the CDS
Diderot Mirabeau: 2. introduce innovate co-financing of new sims
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Diderot Mirabeau: 3. place a greater emphasis on community aspects of new sim zoning
Diderot Mirabeau: 4. Replace franchulation with the commonwealth
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Erogenouszone? Hahah
Diderot Mirabeau: erogenous zone .. that's a good one ..
Diderot Mirabeau: lol
TOPGenosse Brouwer: It fits Roman culture I suppose.
Diderot Mirabeau: I think the inside of any citizen's house should be considered "the erogenous zone"
Diderot Mirabeau: anyway .. we were coming from the territorial expansion policy
Beathan Vale: ok -- expansion
Aliasi Stonebender: Well, there's porn, and there's cybering. We only prohibit posting pictures of yourself in bondage gear on your walls; we don't prohibit you actually going around and wearing it. ;)
Aliasi Stonebender: (okay, sorry)
Diderot Mirabeau: hehe
Diderot Mirabeau: to be honest I think it's fairly non-controversial .. everyone agrees we should honour our builders
Beathan Vale: yep
Beathan Vale: although te how is controversial I think
Beathan Vale: don't understand why though
Diderot Mirabeau: co-financing of new sims might be more controversial .. it entails partnering with various entitites to help them bring about a new sim utilising our expertise in zoning and possibly building .. with the requirement that the resulting sim be democratically governed .. something that might in fact dovetail with the proposed "Local Government Study Group"
Beathan Vale: yes
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Diderot Mirabeau: well Beathan there were some people who said that allowing people to buy a luxury resort property as the only one in the middle of a void sim would create two classes of citizens
Aliasi Stonebender: yeah... it's a nice thought that I'm unsure of how practical it would be.
Beathan Vale: I don't see that kind of class distinction emerging -- but it might -- it's worth watching
Diderot Mirabeau: yes the practicality of it is something we would have to assess on a case by case basis I think .. here we need only concern ourselves with whether we want to allow experimentation in principle
Diderot Mirabeau: the second possibly controversial item might be the one about abolishing franchulates
Beathan Vale: do we really look down on citizens who are citizens by group membership as opposed to land ownership -- ordo we resepct people who own villas more than those who own stalls?
Aliasi Stonebender: To be honest, I couldn't tell you what land half the people here own.
Diderot Mirabeau: well I can only answer for myself and I must say the ultimate measure of a citizen is whether he or she can vote
Beathan Vale: well -- the franchulate idea hasn't caught on -- but I don't know if that is the concept, the name or the advertising
Diderot Mirabeau: and his/her standing before the judiciary of course
Aliasi Stonebender: We've not really advertised it. But then, I haven't seen much reason to do so.
Diderot Mirabeau: Aliasi I also think it changes quite a lot :-)
Beathan Vale: I want to sit -- enough of thei standing in the witness box stuff
Diderot Mirabeau: I sympathise a lot with the goal of the franchulate act .. but I think the way it's been implemented there is a lot of unclarity about what the actual benefits would be to anyone subjecting himself and his land to it
Beathan Vale: that's true
Diderot Mirabeau: I think most people on the mainland would prefer to associate on a 'commonwealth' basis
Publius Crabgrass: has it really even been implemented? do we have a franchulate?
Aliasi Stonebender: Not to my knowledge.
Beathan Vale: no -- and I don't see how we can test the franchulate act without someone volunteering to be a franchulate
Publius Crabgrass: afk a bit
Diderot Mirabeau: the discussion in that mainstream SL forum following Ashcrofts announcement of the possibility for enfranchulating blew the concept apart in my view .. nobody considered it to be attractive there
Beathan Vale: and - I don't think a citizen's private sim would count -- the citizen already knows too much
Beathan Vale: yes -- but did anyone have a better model we could try instead?
Beathan Vale: or -- should we work out commonwealth terms on a case-by-case; sim-by-sim basis?
Diderot Mirabeau: I of course would prefer "a citizen's private sim" to be incorporated under the 2. introduce innovative co-financing of new sims utilising partnering :-)
Beathan Vale: and -- should be invade and take over Caledon -- Liberate the Caledonians!!!
Aliasi Stonebender: that's one thing... I've noticed a lot of our citizens tend to be the sort that visit SL, not 'live' in it.
Beathan Vale: Hi Samanthat
Beathan Vale: Welcome
Samantha Fuller: Hello
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Hello Samantha
Aliasi Stonebender: and there's no real attractiveness in the concept for those.
Diderot Mirabeau: hehe this is just for fun of course but actually at the moment there would be some real benefit in trying to persuade Caledon to move to democracy and subsequently work to subvert it to become part of the CDS ... considering that new sims will cost 295 USD per month but old sims under exisiting ownership are only 195 USD :-)
Diderot Mirabeau: hey Samantha welcome to the meeting of the simplicity party ... you're most welcome to stay and follow the discussion and speak .. if you wish to vote you'll have to become a member though :-)
Samantha Fuller: OK
Beathan Vale: but it is an open meeting
Diderot Mirabeau: which is perfectly accomplishable as well :-)
TOPGenosse Brouwer: afk
Diderot Mirabeau: touch the plywood box to get a copy of the meeting documents
Diderot Mirabeau: and do be aware that anything said will be published in the transcript on the forums
Diderot Mirabeau: we were just about to vote about the "territorial expansion" proposal I believe
Beathan Vale: and there is can and will be used against you in a court of law
Diderot Mirabeau: any closing comments on this before we move to vote?
Diderot Mirabeau: hehe
Diderot Mirabeau: right .. will any member present who is in favour of the proposal please say 'aye'?
Diderot Mirabeau: aye
Beathan Vale: are you now or have you ever been a member of the Simplicity Party?
Beathan Vale: Aye
Diderot Mirabeau: 'guilty as charged'
Publius Crabgrass: abstain
Diderot Mirabeau: oops - forgot "your honour"
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Diderot Mirabeau: will any member present who is against the proposal please say 'nay'?
Diderot Mirabeau: okay proposal has been adopted with two votes for and none against
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Expansion? Why don't we conquer Caledon :) Oh, doesnt that fit with the professors teachings?
Diderot Mirabeau: hehe
Diderot Mirabeau: I'm sure Rudy will get a good laugh out of the idea
Diderot Mirabeau: next item coming up is ... muhaha ... "The Judiciary"
Samantha Fuller: Not so easy caladen is 8 times your size
Diderot Mirabeau: I hope you have all had a chance to review the latet proposal as presented in the forums for a Simplicity position on the reform of the Judiciary
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Maybe CDS should forcibly expell Caledon's autocrat :)
Beathan Vale: Carthago delenda est
Diderot Mirabeau: but their weapons are rather backwaters though, aren't they? :-P
Beathan Vale: Iwas run over by atrain when I visited, though
Beathan Vale: can be dangerous
Diderot Mirabeau: what I'd like this discussion on the judiciary to focus on is the most recent proposed addition, which didn't receive any comments/discussion in the forums
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Diderot Mirabeau: if you scroll to the bottom of the document you will see the proposed addition
Diderot Mirabeau: it concerns the issue of term lengths for judges
Diderot Mirabeau: and who gets to set the code of procedure, qualify judges and so on
Aliasi Stonebender: I like the idea of term lengths in principle, but I'm not sure of the exact form there.
Beathan Vale: Pel proposes 2 years in his post -- I think that is too long -- our 9 month proposl makes sense to me
Diderot Mirabeau: the proposal is more or less an amalgam of changes proposed by Beathan, Publius and Flyingroc as I recall it
Diderot Mirabeau: Publius .. you've been somewhat involved in the debate too .. do you have anything to add (and are you available)? :-)
Beathan Vale: actually - I was strangely silent -- although Dim sum contributed
Publius Crabgrass: yes, i';m back
Beathan Vale: I think the proposal is a good start int he right direction though
Aliasi Stonebender: the cooling-off period was that concerned me.
Publius Crabgrass: I agree that 2 years is too long, though i;'m not against possibility of reappointment
Aliasi Stonebender: we don't tell RA members, the Chancellor, or SC members that they need to 'cool off'.
Beathan Vale: Pub -- yes
Diderot Mirabeau: Aliasi .. does the cooling off period strike you as potentially troublesome? should we instead consider not allowing judges to stand for a second nomination?
Publius Crabgrass: the notion of having a broadly diverse judiciary is an excellent addition.
Beathan Vale: Al -- also true -- but we can tell me that I need to cool off
Diderot Mirabeau: RA members need to get themselves re-elected every 6 months
Diderot Mirabeau: the chancellor has an employment contract which can or cannot be renewed .. with the RA
Diderot Mirabeau: the only parallel is really the SC
Diderot Mirabeau: which can be impeached only
Diderot Mirabeau: just like judges
Beathan Vale: although FR wants term limits there
Diderot Mirabeau: however judges have a more rigorous appointment process than SC members
Diderot Mirabeau: especially with the additional criteria for confirmation as outlined in this proposal ... let me quote:
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Beathan Vale: Did -- in fact but not in principle -- the SC could have an equally difficult appointment process if it chose
Diderot Mirabeau: The PJSP should take into account when confirming a persons suitability for the position as judge the following: - The length of time in which a person has been a citizen of the CDS - The extent to which the individual has involved him/herself in CDS activities other than the judiciary - The extent to which the person has expressed publicly strong convictions on the interpretation of law or the moral standing of other citizens in so far as it would have a severe impact on (a) his ability to function as an impartial judge for the majority of the community (b) his ability to elicit trust and goodwill for his office and the institution of the judiciary in general among the community - The ideal of having the college of judges represent sufficiently the diversity of CDS citizens in terms of RL nationalities, outlook, gender and professional experience
Samantha Fuller: 3months sounds like a cooling off period 2 years sounds like a term out
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Aliasi Stonebender: Personally, I feel simply having a term with a re-appointment (perhaps simpler than the initial confirmation) would suffice.
Beathan Vale: Ali -- I think we have consensus on that
Aliasi Stonebender: Ashcroft blathers about how this would interfere with his sacred 'judicial independence', but I don't see how the intial appointment is okay yet periodic votes of confidence are not.
Beathan Vale: and not just Simpl Party consensus -- general consensus with a few dissents
Diderot Mirabeau: re-appointment .. but how would we ensure that such re-appointment would not become a vessel through which to influence the judiciary to pass verdicts according to some political motivation?
Publius Crabgrass: from reading the notecard, I think we need to have a "simpler" version of the notecard iwth all the various parts reconciled.
Diderot Mirabeau: the problem with periodic re-confirmation is that new holders of office may have taken over government in the meantime
Beathan Vale: why is that a problem?
Diderot Mirabeau: potential despots possibly who would need to eliminate judicial independence in order to fully suppress the population
Publius Crabgrass: and the problem with unlimited tenure is that it leads to arrogance (or maybe just attracts arrogance)
Aliasi Stonebender: may have? I'd bet on it.
Beathan Vale: that means that the CDS comunity is changing driection -== why shouldnt the jduiciacy tack with the rest of the ship?
Diderot Mirabeau: who could use the tool of periodic re-nomination for that aim
Diderot Mirabeau: there are only two parts now as I see it, Publius? :-)
Aliasi Stonebender: I think simply having a longer tenure would work. The US Senate has a longer term than the House for that reason.
Beathan Vale: But -- we can handle that by staggering judicial terms and preventing overlap with the RA
Diderot Mirabeau: but I agree that those parts should be merged together .. I just didn't have the time to do it before the meeting and didn't want to either since the last part hadn't been discussed in the forums
Publius Crabgrass: OK, Diderot. I see.
Beathan Vale: 9 month terms -- with one of 4 judges coming up for reappointed each 3 mnths
Diderot Mirabeau: the judiciary should not tack with the rest of the ship if the rest of the ship has been taken over by pirates .. i.e. the nazi party for example ... or Pinochet's Chile
Beathan Vale: Did -- true -- but we might be able to prevent that by careful term determinations
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Diderot Mirabeau: so please let me hear how you intend to implement re-nomination
TOPGenosse Brouwer: 'Nazi party ruling virtual town'
Diderot Mirabeau: lol
Beathan Vale: the other danger is that the judiciary can become hijacked
Diderot Mirabeau: well there has been at least one case of a neo-nazi being fascinated by the Altenburg theme to the point of considering citizenship
Hawthorn Tuque is Online
Beathan Vale: The Federalists stacked the US S.C. the moment Jefferson won thepresidency, for example
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Ouch
Diderot Mirabeau: in that case we have impeachment
Beathan Vale: well -- it is a quaint little Bavarian town
Aliasi Stonebender: eh, unlike the Nazi's or Pinochet, however, people can always leave. Port Neualtenburg doesn't seem to have worked that well, but that doesn't mean NO seceding attempt would.
Diderot Mirabeau: it's true that people can leave ... but it would be a huge cost to society if our democracy had to be rebuilt elsewhere because the independent judiciary had failed to protect the citizens who chose to stay to try and take back the ship by democratic means
Diderot Mirabeau: what we have to consider here is that the judiciary might well have to play the role of having to protect citizens from banishment
Beathan Vale: true -- but we also have to protect people from thejudiiary
Diderot Mirabeau: hmm
Diderot Mirabeau: but doesn't impeachment give you that protection?
Beathan Vale: we can't just hand over the keys to lifelong judges and say -- do your will, we trust you
Beathan Vale: Did --not completely -- no
Diderot Mirabeau: please notice that in the proposal before you a judge can only be re-nominated if a majority of his peers think he should be ..
Beathan Vale: the impeachment provision -- which I explored recently -- does not include antidemocratic or antisocial behavior in office
Publius Crabgrass: grounds for impeachment are poorly defined
Beathan Vale: I don't have a problem with that -- provided we are careful in our initial selection of judges -- and get a balanced bench and not a bunch of clones
Diderot Mirabeau: yes and that is exactly why there is also listed the provisions that the PJSP or the RA would need to heed in their selection of judges .. taking into consideration for example diversity
Samantha Fuller: And the real problem likely wont be failure to protect but failure to keep the peace
Beathan Vale: yep yep
Diderot Mirabeau: "The PJSP should take into account when confirming a persons suitability for the position as judge the following: - The length of time in which a person has been a citizen of the CDS - The extent to which the individual has involved him/herself in CDS activities other than the judiciary - The extent to which the person has expressed publicly strong convictions on the interpretation of law or the moral standing of other citizens in so far as it would have a severe impact on (a) his ability to function as an impartial judge for the majority of the community (b) his ability to elicit trust and goodwill for his office and the institution of the judiciary in general among the community - The ideal of having the college of judges represent sufficiently the diversity of CDS citizens in terms of RL nationalities, outlook, gender and professional experience"
Publius Crabgrass: right now only the SC can tell us what is meant by "conduct tending to bring judiciary into disrepute"
Diderot Mirabeau: failure to keep the peace might well be a problem I concur Samantha!
Diderot Mirabeau: I'd like to incorporate a common position for re-nomination of judges into the proposal .. but I need to get an understanding of what the common proposal would be .. and I need to be assured that the means for re-nomination does not become a vessel for a repressive regime to undermine judicial independence
Publius Crabgrass: The simple answer is that I am more worried by judicial power than power of the people.
Diderot Mirabeau: I feel quite confident that the SC would be rather stern in protecting the electorate from unruly judges .. consider they already issued a warning to the present Chief Judge to get his house in order within 28 days or else ...
Beathan Vale: I thnk that the SC would also act to protect us from a dictatorial RA
Diderot Mirabeau: hmm
Beathan Vale: in fact--- I see in the SC all the protection we need in both areas
Diderot Mirabeau: but why not let the SC appoint and re-appoint judges then?
Beathan Vale: that consolidates power too much
Beathan Vale: I would have the SC nominate -- and the RA appoint --
Beathan Vale: giving the executive the authority to appint temporary judges in the meantime
Publius Crabgrass: and the judges re-nominate their colleagues?
Beathan Vale: subject to SC veto
Diderot Mirabeau: which they have already through impeachment
Beathan Vale: I would let the jduges submit recommendations ot the SC for repappointment
Beathan Vale: this is an area where I thnk we need the complxity of checks and blanaces
Diderot Mirabeau: okay so does everyone agree about initial nomination by SC confirmed by RA ... re-nomination by colleagues and confirmed by SC?
Beathan Vale: that works for me
Publius Crabgrass: Diderot, part of the problem is that impeachment in some cases may be too much of a blunt instrument.
Aliasi Stonebender: I could live with it
Diderot Mirabeau: fair enough Publius
Diderot Mirabeau: I have raised that criticism myself
Beathan Vale: brb
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Diderot Mirabeau: let's take a vote about the entire proposal as amended regarding re-appointment here ...
Diderot Mirabeau: as I understand the amendment it reads ... no mandatory cooling off period ... 9 month terms ..
Diderot Mirabeau: initial nomination by SC ... confirmation by RA .... subsequent nominations by majority of colleagues and confirmed by SC
Publius Crabgrass: Did, just so we're clear, part 2 abolishes the PJSP, so we'll delete language in PArt 1 about the PJSP, right?
Diderot Mirabeau: yes PJSP is abolished as I see it
Diderot Mirabeau: can we vote on the whole proposal with that clarification then?
Publius Crabgrass: ok
Diderot Mirabeau: anyone present who is a member please say 'aye' if you agree to the proposal
Diderot Mirabeau: aye
Publius Crabgrass: Aye
Botany Black is Online
Diderot Mirabeau coughs
Aliasi Stonebender: aye
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Diderot Mirabeau: anyone present who is a member please say 'nay' if you disagree with the proposal
Diderot Mirabeau: hehe Aliasi you just made it :-)
Diderot Mirabeau: proposal has been adopted with three members present voting for it
Diderot Mirabeau: one abstaining
Diderot Mirabeau: let's move on with some haste
Diderot Mirabeau: the last three proposals
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Diderot Mirabeau: does anyone here desire to discuss the contents of them in greater detail as with the previous proposals?
Diderot Mirabeau: they are
Diderot Mirabeau: 1. "Promoting Democratic Governance", 2. "Revitalising the community" and "3. Getting the incorporation act to work"
Diderot Mirabeau: the two last ones have not been available on the forums until yesterday so you may want to go through those in a bit more detail
Diderot Mirabeau: on the other hand I don't think they contain anything which is likely to be very controversial
Cardwood Lunt: this should be the council
Jokha24 Zsigmond: very nice
Diderot Mirabeau: hello Cardwood and Jokha24 :-) welcome to a meeting of the newly established "Simplicity Party" ... we're discussing and approving our policies for the upcoming elections
Cerulia Moxie is Online
Publius Crabgrass: some discussion may be needed about whether the revitalized guild should be non-governmental.
Cardwood Lunt: ah..ok
Diderot Mirabeau: you are welcome to sit in and listen/comment ... but you can only vote if you are citizens of the CDS and become members of our party
Jokha24 Zsigmond: ok nice to be here
Beathan Vale: back
Cardwood Lunt: we're not citizen
Diderot Mirabeau: yes Publius good point
Diderot Mirabeau: well you're most welcome to stay and listen anyway but be warned .. if you are new to the community it can quickly get a bit technical :-)
Diderot Mirabeau: if you touch the plywood prim you will get a copy of the agenda along with the meeting documents
Cardwood Lunt: ok thanks
SL Exchange Magic Box white: SL Exchange - Delivered item Nuke the Crap Out of Europe.
Diderot Mirabeau: Beathan I just asked if we needed discussion on the last three policy proposals
Jokha24 Zsigmond: thank you very kind
Cardwood Lunt: we're justi having a look to the city
Diderot Mirabeau: promoting democratic governance, revitalising the community and getting the incorporation act to work
Diderot Mirabeau: ah okay... well I won't attempt to keep you here then ... there are many beautiful buildings to see :-)
Cardwood Lunt: yes, really a NICE place
Diderot Mirabeau: I'm glad you like it ... I hope you will enjoy the rest of your virtual tour
Diderot Mirabeau: don't miss the villa in the far SW corner of the sim .. I used to own it .. it's a beautiful design if you ask me :-)
Jokha24 Zsigmond: thanks again very nice city u have here
Cardwood Lunt: eh eh
Cardwood Lunt: only a question..
Cardwood Lunt: is it normal all thi fog ?
Diderot Mirabeau: yes?
Diderot Mirabeau: it is yes ... we're a mountain village but you can disable it
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Diderot Mirabeau: if you have a "Client" menu in your Second Life application?
Cardwood Lunt: yes
Publius Crabgrass: unfortunately, the fog is always with us unless you turn it off
Cerulia Moxie is Online
Diderot Mirabeau: Client / Rendering / Types / Clouds should disable it
Diderot Mirabeau: alternatively press Ctrl + Alt + Shift + 6
Diderot Mirabeau: sorry Ctrl + Alt + Shift + Minus
Diderot Mirabeau: I'm sorry gentleman but I shall have to continue this meeting as some members will be leaving soon
Diderot Mirabeau: I hope you will enjoy the remainder of your tour
Jokha24 Zsigmond: ok thank u have a good day
Diderot Mirabeau: if you wish to consider becoming citizens please do not hesitate to check out our website at
Publius Crabgrass: Diderot, I was just going to cut quickly to one last item on the agenda
Cardwood Lunt: ok thanks, bye
Diderot Mirabeau: and IM Rudeen Edo for assistance with land purchase :-)
Jokha24 Zsigmond: lets go card
Diderot Mirabeau: bye for now
Diderot Mirabeau: yes Publius?
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Publius Crabgrass: I'll run for the RA if we need people to do so, and promise to resign as Judiciary Chair if elected (our platforms simplifies that job out, anyways).
Diderot Mirabeau: I think it would be good if you would stand
Beathan Vale: that works for me
Diderot Mirabeau: you don't have to consider resigning before the election results get published anyway
Cardwood Lunt shouts: it's there
Publius Crabgrass: I'm just sorry Rudy isn't available
Diderot Mirabeau: me too :-(
Diderot Mirabeau: maybe if he comes back in mid-term he can take over for someone else who doesnt want to continue
Beathan Vale: yes ... but he'll be back, I'm sure
Diderot Mirabeau: I'd encourage anyone here to stand
Diderot Mirabeau: the way it works is the Dean asks you if you want to make yourself available for holding government office just before the election opens
Beathan Vale: I'm too controverial at the moment
Diderot Mirabeau: or is it two weeks before .. can't remember
Diderot Mirabeau: well Beathan politics are about controversy
Diderot Mirabeau: and as long as you maintain our _common_ platform
Beathan Vale: too right -- but the hatchetmen typically have to recast themselves to win
Diderot Mirabeau: I don't see why we would need to concern ourselves with the possible controversy of the person
Beathan Vale: that's true
Publius Crabgrass: I believe the way this works is that people vote for factions first, not the people.
Beathan Vale: but -- can you imagine the outcry and hand wringing if I got on the RA?
Diderot Mirabeau: I am confident that you would be able to represent our platform loyally in the RA
Beathan Vale: so am I --
Diderot Mirabeau: it doesn't matter .. much of what takes place in the forums is just exaggerated theatrical thunder and lightning
Beathan Vale: lol -- too right
Aliasi Stonebender: actually Beathan
Aliasi Stonebender: remember
Publius Crabgrass: "No later than 15 days prior to the opening of the polls, faction members will report to the SC Dean their willingness or unwillingness to serve in the RA."
Aliasi Stonebender: under our system, you only have to worry about winning the hearts and minds of SP members.
Diderot Mirabeau: it is up to the Dean to IM people to ask
Diderot Mirabeau: yes
Beathan Vale: that's also true
TOPGenosse Brouwer: It's great if people want to serve in teh RA, nevermind if they're one of the more outspoken people.
Diderot Mirabeau: since the candidates are ranked only by those who are actually members of the faction in question
Publius Crabgrass: I think election begins around Jan 16th or so?
Diderot Mirabeau: so in summary I don't think that should keep you from standing
Aliasi Stonebender: some people might not vote for the SP if they know you're running, but I imagine many of those people would not vote for the SP in any circumstance.
Diderot Mirabeau: yes it can't be too long before the Dean pricks our shoulders gently with that little question
Beathan Vale: but -- I thnk that there might be a benefit to people knowing who the RA candidates would be
Aliasi Stonebender: well, this IS a public transcript. They'll know who in the SP intends to run.
Beathan Vale: true
Diderot Mirabeau: I for one am quite happy about politics here being about the substance of the cases and not so much about the charismatic personality of the 'leading candidates'
Publius Crabgrass: sorry, but I have to head out now.
Beathan Vale: I can probably get used to it and learn to love it too
Publius Crabgrass: thanks for a good meeting, all.
Diderot Mirabeau: let's move on ... I asked if anyone felt a need to discuss the three last proposals in detail and Publius asked if we could discuss whether the new guild should be NGO or government branch
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Bye Publius
Beathan Vale: bye Publius
Diderot Mirabeau: Publius wait .. what is your own opinion on that?
Publius Crabgrass: well, Did, I think "simpler is better", which means I'm more inclined to support a flexible NGO
Diderot Mirabeau: thanks Publius!
Diderot Mirabeau: we'll discuss on the basis of that
Diderot Mirabeau: bye for now!
Diderot Mirabeau: and thanks for coming
Samantha Fuller: bye
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Diderot Mirabeau: I agree with Publius .. I think we have a long tradition in the CDS for letting charities / NGO's take care of important policy goals on the basis of a charter from the RA ...
Diderot Mirabeau: the benefit is that it allows the community to address a wider range of goals, which may be economically costly but to which there might not be sufficient consensus if it were to be paid for by public coffers for example
Beathan Vale: Hi Ranma
Ranma Tardis: Hi Beathan
Diderot Mirabeau: also since the proposal entails funding the residence of skilled but poor artisans ... and since significant interest and support has been voiced by private individuals in terms of promises of economic support
Beathan Vale: Simp Party meeting -- but open meeting -- join us if you want
Ranma Tardis: sure
Diderot Mirabeau: I think it would be somewhat unfortunate if these people were to donate money to the government treasury earmarked for that purpose .. it is as if it would give those people an extra significance in relation to the execution of government policy
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Hi Ranma
Diderot Mirabeau: hey Ranma .. welcome to the meeting othe Simplicity Party .. we're discussing the last three items on the agenda
Beathan Vale: we need to avoid the :"hand out not hand up" problem voiced by Pel
Ranma Tardis: hello Top san
Samantha Fuller: Hi Ranma
Diderot Mirabeau: a copy of which you can get by touching the plywood prim
Diderot Mirabeau: anything said here will be part of a transcript published to the forums
Beathan Vale: but -- I don't have an opinion on form yet -- whatever works best, and I don't have enough experience to evaluate that
Diderot Mirabeau: Aliasi what's your opinion on the matter?
Ranma Tardis: with me being on active duty with no regular high speed access until perhaps April :(
Aliasi Stonebender: hm. well, I do notice one catch-22.
Diderot Mirabeau: aw that's too bad Ranma
Aliasi Stonebender: We can't very well offer citizenship through a group.
Diderot Mirabeau: hmm ... are you sure about that?
Beathan Vale: yep -- we have to relax the rules
Aliasi Stonebender: as the act in question requires all citizens enabled be citizens BEFOREHAND.
Ranma Tardis: I own the das joy phim building again
Diderot Mirabeau: ah
Diderot Mirabeau can't get acces to the wiki to read through the relevant legislation
Beathan Vale: I think you have to be a citizen -- join a citizen gorup -- then you can stay a citizen through the land ownerhsip of the gourp -- but can't become one that way
Aliasi Stonebender: Now, that doesn't mean things can't be enabled...
Beathan Vale: am I right?
Aliasi Stonebender:
Ranma Tardis: I will pay sudane through paypal
Aliasi Stonebender: try that, Diderot.
Diderot Mirabeau: funny that one does work for me!
Aliasi Stonebender: because it's the true address.
Aliasi Stonebender: I keep telling people to not use Gwyn's redirect, it's very unreliable
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Beathan Vale: doesn't work for me either
Aliasi Stonebender: and I've never been happy with the implication that, since it's shown as the wiki is part of the main website
Diderot Mirabeau: what would be the downside of relaxing the requirement further
Diderot Mirabeau: would it open up for potential abuse?
Aliasi Stonebender: Well, Diderot, I myself own enough land to make 8 or 9 people citizens.
Diderot Mirabeau: voting cattle
Aliasi Stonebender: and my land-owning group actually contains 4 accounts that are all me.
Diderot Mirabeau: well
Aliasi Stonebender: (For public record, those accounts are Aliasi Stonebender, Convex and Concave Surface, and Mega Mahoney.)
Diderot Mirabeau: I have a similar setup
Aliasi Stonebender: Now, someone less ethical than I could choose to not disclose that... and owning one big plot you personally use and, as a side benefit, get additional voting rights...
Diderot Mirabeau: utilising Dalai Bentham and Vincent Pontoppoidan ... and my RL partner Natasha Prevost .. who is not me
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Ali > That last one's great :)
Aliasi Stonebender: which brings us right to Anshe Chung's original proposal for weighting votes by land ownership
Diderot Mirabeau: hmm
Diderot Mirabeau: can't the new guild foundation simply subsidise the recipients to enable them to buy plots themselves?
Aliasi Stonebender: Yes, Nightwind Leonov is also in my land-group - which I did in case I had to fire him as PIO. So he could give up his microplot and remain a citizen.
Aliasi Stonebender: if plots are available, yes.
Diderot Mirabeau: well they should be
Aliasi Stonebender: or we add some exception for guild-chartered citizens.
Diderot Mirabeau: and if they aren't ... it would be the role of the new guild to advocate territorial expansion
Heartun Breaker shouts: Is this an Esperanto sim?
Ranma Tardis: well there a a few large lots available now, they could be made into more smaller lots
You shout: no, but we have many Esperantists!
Diderot Mirabeau: I'm not too keen on blurring the universal concept of citizenship for the benefit of a charity with a specific mission
Heartun Breaker shouts: I'm a reporter. I need to talk to someone about Esperanto in SL
Beathan Vale: or we could take a small lot approach to the next sim - - I think we should
Diderot Mirabeau shouts: try Gxeremio Dimsum .. he's a very prominent figure in their community here
Heartun Breaker shouts: KK thnx!
Diderot Mirabeau shouts: you're welcome!
You shout: or Redaktisto Noble!
Diderot Mirabeau: good point Ranma
Diderot Mirabeau: that would also be something which the new guild could advocate
Diderot Mirabeau: and upon which we could of course look kindly
Diderot Mirabeau: I'd much prefer re-parcelling rather than introducing different kinds of citizenship
Aliasi Stonebender: true enough
TOPGenosse Brouwer: I don't think Sudane's a fan of smaller plots .. not sure what here motivation is though
Diderot Mirabeau: what do you say Beathan?
Aliasi Stonebender: I'm already drawing up plans for a third sim... and in Sudane's case, I think it's sheer amount of work.
Beathan Vale: reparceling does avoid the problems of uneven citizenship
Ranma Tardis: fewer citizens and less transfers is less work
Diderot Mirabeau: it may have to do with the history of the "microplots" (16 sqm I believe) which were intended to provide cheap accommodation for people wanting to participate in democracy here but not having money for the land - which were allegedly abused
Diderot Mirabeau: by people getting their friends to become citizens to vote for them
Heartun Breaker shouts: They aren't on. I need an Esperanto quote for an article that is under deadline or I need to write around it. Any help?
Beathan Vale: but -- if we do parcel gifting and pay civil servants enough to pay rent, we will be OK
TOPGenosse Brouwer: 16 sqm, perfect for advertisement signs :)
You shout: sorry, none present here are Esperantists, I suggest checking the Esperanto group
Diderot Mirabeau: I think the New Guild should have enough money to support a handful of immigrants for a period long enough for them to be able to set themselves up in a successful business or similar so that they would have a vested interest in and an ability to keep up themselves after say six months
Aliasi Stonebender: ah, we prohibited any building on the microplots, Top. :P
Beathan Vale: that works too
Ranma Tardis: rent on 128 sq meters is not big money
Heartun Breaker: I checked the Esperanto group first... but you can't tell who is online any more (new LL feature) so I haven't found one online
Ranma Tardis: 1.25 american
Diderot Mirabeau: one of my friends is only 2 - 3 months old and already makes more than 1,000L$ per month selling avatars
Patch Lamington is Online
Diderot Mirabeau: okay so Beathan could we incorporate that into the proposal? that we would like to see the New Guild become a chartered NGO with responsibility for the subsidising of new talented citizens to set themselvs up on a small property for a period long enough to build a career for themselves?
Heartun Breaker: well.... I can write around it. I just thought Esperanto could use a plug. Thanks for your help anyway.
Aliasi Stonebender: little early in the day to find a lot of those people is all
Diderot Mirabeau: if the group is open enrollment you could always join it and send IM's to all, Heartun
Diderot Mirabeau: ah he's gone sadly
Diderot Mirabeau: SHE
Diderot Mirabeau: sorry I use the history window .. don't see the avatars
Diderot Mirabeau: Beathan?
Diderot Mirabeau coughs
Beathan Vale: sorry
Beathan Vale: I just want the proces, whatever it is, to be simple and workable -- easily explained and understood -- one that can attract people with useful SL skills
Beathan Vale: but I see the problems of two-track citizenship
Ranma Tardis: I am thinking about buying a card and service for my notebook
Beathan Vale: and the economic costs, while small on some measures -- might be larger on others
Ranma Tardis: me too it is complex for starts
Diderot Mirabeau: we've been trying to find an elegant way of addressing it in the past too .. but the experience has been that it causes more complications than benefits sadly
Diderot Mirabeau: right .. if we have that settled ..
Beathan Vale: yes -- microlots did not work -- but they were not tied to civil service
Diderot Mirabeau: shall we do a collective vote on the last three items on the agenda?
Diderot Mirabeau: just to get finished?
Beathan Vale: I think we should use the Guild, whatever it turns out to be
Diderot Mirabeau: anyone not comfortable with that?
Diderot Mirabeau: as I understand it the amendment was .. let the New Guild become a chartered NGO with citizen contributions to be able to subsidise a handful of new talented citizens to live on a small plot for a period of up to six months
Aliasi Stonebender: Sure. I want the Guild to remain in some form... it's the last vestige of the original Neualtenburg arrangement now that the SC's (in theory) neutered. And it's still a good idea, just never was run well.
Daelyn Javelin is Online
Kinjry Legend is Offline
Daelyn Javelin is Offline
Beathan Vale: works for me
Diderot Mirabeau waits for TopGenosses contribution
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Got to go, good luck with the meeting guys - & Ranma, let us know if the Joy Phim Haus get's an update!
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Not much of a contribution :)
Diderot Mirabeau: any member here in favour please say 'aye'
Beathan Vale: aye
Diderot Mirabeau: hehe it has been a pleasure having you here TopGenosse
Diderot Mirabeau: bye for now!
Diderot Mirabeau: aye
Diderot Mirabeau: (sorry for messing up the vote)
TOPGenosse Brouwer: OK, See ya
Diderot Mirabeau: any member present here not in favour of the proposal please say 'nay'
Diderot Mirabeau: okay the proposal passes with two votes for and one abstaining
Aliasi Stonebender: ayeaye
Diderot Mirabeau: whoops
Diderot Mirabeau: make that unanimous approval :-

Member of the Scientific Council and board moderator.

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