A Question about STV

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Claude Desmoulins
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A Question about STV

Post by Claude Desmoulins »

In the CSDF thread, Pat describes their Single transferable Vote (STV) proposal. I can't reply over there, so I'll ask a question here. He says:

[quote:3hhbtfxo]
Another strength is the faction system. Citizens vote for factions, rather than individuals, and that means that the political debate is focused on issues rather than personalities.
[/quote:3hhbtfxo]

My question is, doesn't gong to STV torpedo that strength? It seems to me that this would, whatever its intent, spur personality driven campaigning.

The proposal would inevitable weaken the factions. Not only would there be no incentive for non candidates to join one, but voters could ignore platforms and vote solely on the basis of what persons they liked.

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Patroklus Murakami
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Re: A Question about STV

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

[quote="Claude Desmoulins":3qce1ars]My question is, doesn't gong to STV torpedo that strength? It seems to me that this would, whatever its intent, spur personality driven campaigning.

The proposal would inevitable weaken the factions. Not only would there be no incentive for non candidates to join one, but voters could ignore platforms and vote solely on the basis of what persons they liked.[/quote:3qce1ars]Good question Claude. And how refreshing to be debating issues at long last in this election. Thank you for the question.

The Constitution says (Art I, Section 1): "The Representative Assembly (RA) is a body of democratically elected factions which represent different ideological views of its citizens" and (Art IV, Section 2): "No later than 15 days prior to the opening of the polls, faction members will report to the SC Dean their willingness or unwillingness to serve in the RA." This indicates that, according to our Constitution, only faction members may stand for election to the Representative Assembly. We do not propose to change this. As I said in my post on electoral reform, we see the faction system as one of the strengths of the system, we want to preserve that.

But you're right to conclude that our proposal will weaken the factions' power in one respect. We propose to open up the process of choosing between the candidates to the voters as a whole instead of limiting this choice to faction members only.

And personality-driven campaigning is already with us under our current system. What else can be said of a party that appeared from nowhere, has no policies, but lots of flags and a pretty video? At least with the system we propose voters would be making a choice for the individuals concerned rather than voting for 'something that sounds good' and ending up with a demagogue as leader of the RA.

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Post by Claude Desmoulins »

If you are going to vote for individuals, dividing CDS into multi seat constituencies might be a good way to do it. That said, I'm not convinced of the wisdom of voting for people.

You say that personality driven campaigning is here regardless, even though you indicated (and I agree with you on this) that voting for platforms as we do now is a strength of the system. You then turn round and essentially argue that the fight is lost on this and we might as well give in to the inevitable and vote for people. Why?

There have been previous campaigns in which individuals ran personal campaigns (even though they were only campaigning to their faction members) in the last two election cycles we've gotten away from this and I believe it has been a good thing.

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Post by Beathan »

I think that there is much to favor this proposal. I also think that there are benefits from voting for individuals, rather than platforms.

First, if votes are for platforms, I don't see that the individuals have any electoral mandate to do anything other than the action items on the platform -- and completely lack a mandate to compromise or reconsider items on the platform. Such compromise would seem to be a flat betrayal of the basis of election if the platform, not the person, was elected.

However, compromise in the RA is critical. Even with two parties, I think that it is fair to say that the RA is successful to the extent its members work out compromises -- even if those compromise take them beyond (or even move contrary to) their party platforms. This need for compromise will be greaty increased in a three or four party RA.

That said, I think that there is also a benefit from impersonal, party-specific voting. I think that we should not lose this benefit.

I also think that there are real benefits from local representation in the RA, and we should work to get such representation. IRL politics, local issues are paramount. Tip O'Neill, one of the greatest American Speakers of the House, had the slogan "all politics is local." At present, with only two sims, there is no distinction or disconnection between local and national politics, but that this an accident of our small size -- and we should not create or maintain institutions based on that fortunate, but temporary, accident.

I also agree that having separate chambers, both of which have the same function -- passing legislation -- would be unnecessarily complicated and unnecessarily duplicative. Therefore, I think that whatever we consider, we should base our decisions on our existing institutions, rather than adding new ones -- so we should reform the RA not add a new chamber.

However, I think we can have local and national, and personal and partisan, representation simultaneously and in a single chamber. There is no Constitutional need that requires that members of the RA represent the same things or that members of the RA be elected in the same way.

Therefore, I would propose two reforms. First, each sim (or each sim with that meets minimum population standards) should have 1 representative, who stands for election personally. This person should be able to run as a nonpartisan -- addressing Dianne's concerns about the full enfranchisement of people who want to be in a "faction of one." However, if local candidates are aligned with a party, the party should be able to support them -- so there should still be good reason to join a faction. These local candidates would be elected personally -- based on personal mandate -- and would therefore be able to campaign "off-platform" and, when elected, vote "off-platform." The CSDF STV proposal is an excellent voting model for these local elections.

The remaining seats on the RA could be elected in at-large elections, voting for party, not for person. This would maintain the historical power of factions in the CDS. Further, if my calculations are correct, we can expect a majority of seats in the RA to continue to be at-large seats. This should be more than sufficient to maintain the utility and power of factions.

However, to broaden the franchise, I would propose an additional change to our election process. I would continue to require candidates for at-large seats to associate with a faction. However, I would allow unaffiliated voters to vote for their favored faction's candidates even if the voter is not a pre-election member of the faction. That is, I would allow voters to vote (or not vote if they would rather not vote) for the individual candidates of the faction they placed first on their ballot.

Pat expresses a concern that this might create two classes of RA members. I don't see that as likely. All RA members would have the same power and function once elected. This perfect duplication of power and function should be more than enough to ward off any stigma from the different ways of seeking election. Further, even if we compare the "bragging rights" of the two categories of RA members -- we find roughly balanced "bragging rights." The at-large members would represent a larger area (the entire CDS). However, the local representatives would be individually selected.

Further, this proposal would preserve the goals of the factions and allow for full compromise within the RA without betraying the faction platform. Local representatives would have great freedom to move from their party's platform -- as they are representing primarily local, not factional, interests. At-large representatives would have great freedom to move from local interests -- as they are representing their party's platform. This increases the number of potential compromise combinations, increasing the flexibility of issue-specific coalition formation within the RA.

Beathan

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Post by Dianne »

IMO the STV system does not mean that factions or parties will be "thrown out" or even necessarily lessened in power.

The power that any party can exercise is directly related to it's size and to the cooperation of it's members. It is through the members of the RA organising themselves into *groups* and (post election), into alliances between groups, that all legislation is really approved or decided upon. In multi-party systems like ours, rarely is there a clear majority or dominating force. Most progress is through mutual cooperation and debate between self-identified, self-forming *groups* and individuals.

The STV system also does nothing to keep party preference from playing a role in the elections, it merely adds personal preference to the mix as well. People can, and will, vote either by party or personality.

To me, the reality is is that the RA is a group of people. Individual people with individual opinions and known attributes. Those personalities *do* form a part of what I base my own personal vote on and always will. I might vote for someone who performed poorly in a debate when trying to define their factions position, because I know and trust that person and base my judgment on that.

Finally, the often-brought-up bogeyman in this situation is always the "cult of personality" figure, the single individual that wins the day instead of being a member of a faction. But if such a person got elected, she or he would still have to work with the rest of the RA or hold the rest of the RA under their influence to get anywhere. If it *was* the case that an individual with such charisma managed to get elected, it's pretty likely that she/he would be able to similarly entice the rest of the RA to join her/his faction in the first place though.

As far as I can see, the STV proposal makes it neither appreciably easier nor harder for a person to "take over" based on a cult of personality. IMO there is nothing in it that would tend to make the election process suddenly switch to being any more about the individual than it is now. At best the additional weighting of the vote would provide marginal assistance to individual personalities but likely not be able to overrule the effect of siding with a losing party.

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