Setting the Record Straight

[Gxeremio Dimsum]

[quote="michelmanen":958ud5og]And the RA met minutes before the polls opened and hours before the debate to give the impression it actualy has a track-record on these fundamental issues about which our citizens deeply care - in clear violation of long-standing and unbroken CDS custom and practice. [/quote:958ud5og]

I've noticed you repeating this charge - what do you base it on that this is a long-standing and unbroken tradition (which itself seems a little silly to say since there have only been 3 RA sessions before this one)?

By the way, what about that charge is NOT negative campaigning?

[Jon Seattle]

[quote="michelmanen":30o38zay]
Your reply in no way addresses the issues I raised i n my e-mail replying to your first -which focus on the timing and propriety of the RA's actions rather than the substantive content of the Bill. [/quote:30o38zay]

Red herrings Michel. Did you or did you not make up that stuff about Moon "textually reproducing" a CARE proposal or not? You were very specific in your accusation and now you refuse to answer the question.

I will address the current state of the RA in another post. There, also, you seem to be either misinformed. Certainly neither I nor Moon has anything to do with scheduling RA meetings, nor do we set the agenda.

[michelmanen]

This legislative custom and unbroken practice was confirmed at an SC meeting by the Dean of the Scientific Council. Please direct any further questions to her. There is, in addition, the real-life practice of legislative bodies which provide clear precedents about what a legislature may or may not due during an election compaign.

When members of opposing parties meet [b:2gewh9w6]as a legislature, in their official capacity, and make official decisions affecting us all[/b:2gewh9w6], it is the duty of all citizens to take a long hard look at the manner and propriety of the actions of our only democratically-elected body and ask whether such actions conform with the principles of democracy, rule of law and constitutional propriety of our community. Not only is such questioning NOT negative campaigning - it is the civic duty of every citizen.

[michelmanen]

[quote:1qzmyrp0]Did you or did you not make up that stuff about Moon "textually reproducing" a CARE proposal or not? You were very specific in your accusation and now you refuse to answer the question.

I will address the current state of the RA in another post. There, also, you seem to be either misinformed. Certainly neither I nor Moon has anything to do with scheduling RA meetings, nor do we set the agenda.[/quote:1qzmyrp0]

I did not say "Moon" did or did not do anything. My specific comment was:

[quote:1qzmyrp0] I compliment the current RA members for holding an RA meeting hours before the debate, minutes before the polls opened, to introduce bills that almost textually reproduce the innovative, participative , inclusive approach that CARE energized these elections with.[/quote:1qzmyrp0]

Please note that I specifically referred to the "innovative, participative , inclusive approach" of the Bill being almost textually reproduced, and not the substantive content of the Bill.

Again, my comment referred to the propriety of the legislature's actions as a whole, and not to those of any individual members. The fact remains that you agreed to attend this meeting and vote on the bill - unless, of course, you were dragged in the Praetorium at gun's point and forced to vote aye on pain of severe retribution...

[Gxeremio Dimsum]

[quote="michelmanen":39c2u5ph]This legislative custom and unbroken practice was confirmed at an SC meeting by the Dean of the Scientific Council. Please direct any further questions to her. There is, in addition, the real-life practice of legislative bodies which provide clear precedents about what a legislature may or may not due during an election compaign.[/quote:39c2u5ph]

A 6 month term kinds of makes every week of a term count, don't you think?

[quote:39c2u5ph]When members of opposing parties meet [b:39c2u5ph]as a legislature, in their official capacity, and make official decisions affecting us all[/b:39c2u5ph], it is the duty of all citizens to take a long hard look at the manner and propriety of the actions of our only democratically-elected body and ask whether such actions conform with the principles of democracy, rule of law and constitutional propriety of our community. Not only is such questioning NOT negative campaigning - it is the civic duty of every citizen.[/quote:39c2u5ph]

I agree with the second part - that questioning is the duty of every citizen, but I disagree with the first part - that you accusing people of doing things underhandedly is not negative. I agree with Beathan, that asking tough questions and holding people accountable is both negative campaigning AND necessary. Mudslinging, as he says, has no place, but avoiding tough questions and claiming that's the high road serves no one.

[michelmanen]

[quote:1i59owra]A 6 month term kinds of makes every week of a term count, don't you think? Smile[/quote:1i59owra]

Length of a mandate is immaterial. In real life, legislatures are dissolved for much longer than two weeks to allow for elections to take place which not only are free, fair and respectful of the rule of law, but are also seen to be so by all citizens. No legislature which does otherwise can pretend to preserve its legitimacy in the eyes of the population it governs.

[quote:1i59owra]I agree with the second part - that questioning is the duty of every citizen, but I disagree with the first part - that you accusing people of doing things underhandedly is not negative. I agree with Beathan, that asking tough questions and holding people accountable is both negative campaigning AND necessary. Mudslinging, as he says, has no place, but avoiding tough questions and claiming that's the high road serves no one.[/quote:1i59owra]

It is the actions of our only official, democratically elected legislative body I question - as an official body, and not as a group of citizens. There is a fundamental disctinction between the two.

The fact that you agree with Beathan on one or another issue is immaterial. CARE does not seek your personal approval. We'll let the people deicde...

[Beathan]

Michel wrote [quote:2a1sl21d]Length of a mandate is immaterial. In real life, legislatures are dissolved for much longer than two weeks to allow for elections to take place which not only are free, fair and respectful of the rule of law, but are also seen to be so by all citizens.[/quote:2a1sl21d]

Michel -- this is true, but it is an accident of geography. Legislatures are dissolved or deconvened to allow incumbents to campaign. (In the US, the legislature is deconvened, but not dissolved, contrary to your claim that iRL "the executive always dissolves the legislature prior to an election.") Because legislatures tend to be geographically centralized and to meet inperson -- while legislative districts are geographically defined and, for the most part, do not include the capital area, legislatures must dissolve or deconvene so that members can go home to seek re-election. The CDS does not have these limitations.

However, it is also generally the case that permanent legislatures -- like many national and state legislatures, reconvene after the election for a period of time before the newly elected representatives take office. In such case, they are truly lame duck legislatures -- with members who have actually lost their bids for re-election. Nonetheless, they can and do pass legislation.

Beathan

[Gxeremio Dimsum]

[quote="michelmanen":jcd4i6l4]It is the actions of our only official, democratically elected legislative body I question - as an official body, and not as a group of citizens. There is a fundamental disctinction between the two. [/quote:jcd4i6l4]

So how about people who WANT to be part of the official body? Why not use foresight as well as hindsight?

[quote:jcd4i6l4]The fact that you agree with Beathan on one or another issue is immaterial. CARE does not seek your personal approval. We'll let the people deicde...[/quote:jcd4i6l4]

Ummm...am I not a person, and a voter? A unqiue effect of our voting system is that you definitely don't want to be seen as the worst choice by 49% of the voters, or else you will not win even if 51% mark you as their first choice.

[michelmanen]

[quote:2o7kna0g]Michel -- this is true, but it is an accident of geography. Legislatures are dissolved to allow incumbents to campaign. Because legislatures tend to be geographically centralized and to meet in person -- while legislative districts are geographically defined and, for the most part, do not include the capital area, legislatures must dissolve so that members can go home to seek reelection. The CDS does not have these limitations.[/quote:2o7kna0g]

This is not the only reason legislatures are dissolved - especially in our media-oriented world, dominated by the television and the internet. The most important reasons have to do with issues of democracy, the rule of law, constitutional propriety, and overall perception of the integrity and legitimacy of our structures of governance. This is most clearly obvious not only to "political pundits", but to every average citizen.

[quote:2o7kna0g]However, it is also generally the case that permanent legislatures -- like most national legislatures, reconvene after the election for a period of time before the newly elected representatives take office. In such case, they are truly a lame duck legislature -- with members who have actually lost their bids for re-election. Nonetheless, they can and do pass legislation. [/quote:2o7kna0g]

First, they reconvene, as you aptly note, "after the election", not during it - certainly not minutes before polls are due to open and hours before a key debate, to pass legislation which then will be used to score debating points against its opponents.

Lame-duck sessions are a US tradition.... and we all know in what high regard and respect the majority of US citizens hold their own legislators anf legislative process in general, and the practice of a lame-duck legislature in particular...

[Ranma Tardis]

[quote="michelmanen":2sz30dzu][quote:2sz30dzu] Lame-duck sessions are a US tradition.... and we all know in what high regard and respect the majority of US citizens hold their own legislators anf legislative process in general, and the practice of a lame-duck legislature in particular...[/quote:2sz30dzu][/quote:2sz30dzu]

The RA is not disolved after the anouncement of elections like in Europe or Japan. It is not written into the consitution and "tradition" does not have the force of law. Hell it is not even a written "tradition".
If you like this so much why don't you try and change the consitution?

[michelmanen]

[quote:1crrlvg3]So how about people who WANT to be part of the official body? Why not use foresight as well as hindsight?[/quote:1crrlvg3]

I am sorry, I do not know how else to make you see the critical difference between an individual acting as a private citizen or as a candidate during elections on the one hand, and the official actions of an official body acting in an official capacity on the other...

[quote:1crrlvg3]Ummm...am I not a person, and a voter? A unqiue effect of our voting system is that you definitely don't want to be seen as the worst choice by 49% of the voters, or else you will not win even if 51% mark you as their first choice.[/quote:1crrlvg3]

Indeed. I quite agree with you in principle. In practice, however, the likelihood of my being able to do anything which may result in having any kind of support ffrom Beathtan -or you, for that matter, is rather remote. This clearly does not mean I do not address issues you raise - I just choose not to alter my principled positions in the rather implausible hope of attracting your SEcond or Third Vote..

[michelmanen]

[quote:6qpoxe8t]The RA is not disolved after the anouncement of elections like in Europe or Japan. It is not written into the consitution and "tradition" does not have the force of law. Hell it is not even a written "tradition". [/quote:6qpoxe8t]

Ranma, there are no "written" traditions. If the tradition was "written", it would be a law.

Please direct any further questions on this to the SC Dean.

[quote:6qpoxe8t]If you like this so much why don't you try and change the consitution?[/quote:6qpoxe8t]

If we are elected, we certainly intend to ensure that this fiasco will never happen again.

[Gxeremio Dimsum]

[quote="michelmanen":1qrd7ty5][quote:1qrd7ty5]So how about people who WANT to be part of the official body? Why not use foresight as well as hindsight?[/quote:1qrd7ty5]

I am sorry, I do not know how else to make you see the critical difference between an individual acting as a private citizen or as a candidate during elections on the one hand, and the official actions of an official body acting in an official capacity on the other...[/quote:1qrd7ty5]

Since you like to refer to RL law, don't most countries have RL laws that set apart candidates from private citizens in many ways - how they can raise money, declaring private information, etc. That's in addition to the tradition in every democratic nation of scrutinizing all candidates carefully, NOT just incumbents. I find it very interesting indeed that you consider a candidate more like a private citizen than like an official, in terms of what standards they are held to.

I just wonder - if you ARE elected to the RA, what will you do? What won't you do? Being "principled" means applying ideals to reality, not avoiding specific questions about plans and policies in the name of highmindedness. So I will echo some of Beathan's questions, and add a few of my own:
1. Do you want to reinstate the Judiciary Act?
2. Do you want a judiciary composed of RL legal professionals only?
3. How will we pay for the radio station you propose (since an audience of 70, or even 500 occasional listeners, isn't going to draw much ad revenue)?
4. What, if any, constitutional changes do you plan to propose?

The longer it takes you to answer questions, or post your proposals, the fewer voters get to see your plans before heading to the polls.

[Ranma Tardis]

[quote="michelmanen":2ezsg9gm][quote:2ezsg9gm]The RA is not disolved after the anouncement of elections like in Europe or Japan. It is not written into the consitution and "tradition" does not have the force of law. Hell it is not even a written "tradition". [/quote:2ezsg9gm]

Ranma, there are no "written" traditions. If the tradition was "written", it would be a law.

Please direct any further questions on this to the SC Dean.

[quote:2ezsg9gm]If you like this so much why don't you try and change the consitution?[/quote:2ezsg9gm]

If we are elected, we certainly intend to ensure that this fiasco will never happen again.[/quote:2ezsg9gm]

I am not the one with a problem. I consider the actions of the RA correct and proper. You do not run a country on tradition. You run a country on LAW.
If you wish to have a sim that is run on tradition, I suggest you buy your own sim.
Oh for the record this is not an attack apon you but my position on things.

[michelmanen]

[quote:3vdy4oud]That's in addition to the tradition in every democratic nation of scrutinizing all candidates carefully, NOT just incumbents. I find it very interesting indeed that you consider a candidate more like a private citizen than like an official, in terms of what standards they are held to.[/quote:3vdy4oud]

Indeed - but such scrutiny does not include (ahem... should not include ) personal attacks, character assassination and negative campaigning - although I do concede that iRL this is honored more in the breach than in practice .

The difference between a purley private citizen and an individual speaking in the name of a specific group only (even if a national party) is much smaller than that between the latter and an offical body, deomocratically elected by all citizens to act in all their name and in their best interest, representing the entire community, speaking in the name of all citizens and carrying the weight of the law and the stick of official law-enforcement methods behind it.

I realise we have not yet updated our website - therefore, I shall refrain from posting on this forum used and read by a small porportion of our total numer of citizens, and proceed to do finish updating our website as soon as possible...