The conference was held today and was a great success- with an attendance of approximately 30 at any point in time and probably up to 40 unique avis passing through during the 1 1/2 hour event.
Below is the transcript of all remarks, including question period:
egion: Colonia Nova (246528, 250112)
Local-Position: (227, 82, 26)
Meeting on 2007-02-10
Those present:
Michel Manen is in the chair.
Michel Manen:
Michel Manen: Welcome to all of you at the CRAEDO Auditorium Inaugural Lecture.
Michel Manen: My name is Michel Manen, President of the Real Life non-profit organization CRAEDO: the Coalition for the Re-formation of the Euro-American Democratic Order.
Michel Manen: Our purpose it is to re-think what it means to be an active citizen in the Twenty-First Century.
Michel Manen:
Michel Manen: This Auditorium is part of CRAEDOs virtual headquarters in Second Life.
Michel Manen: Its purpose is to be a multi-functional venue designed to serve CRAEDO and CRAEDOs in-world sister-organizaton, CARE: the Citizens Coalition for Rights and Equality.
Michel Manen: It welcomes as well all citizens of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators (CDS) and all interested Second Life members.
Michel Manen:
Michel Manen: If after this lecture you wish to contribute to our discussions and deliberations on this and other topics, please feel free to join CARE.
Michel Manen: CARE is a Second Life group whose membership is open to all those in SL who wish to participate in its activites.
Michel Manen:
Michel Manen: I would like to thank the company Inside This World, who generously donated the holodeck technology allowing us to make this venue a truly multifunctional one.
Michel Manen:
Michel Manen: As you can see from the statue above the Arch situated at the entrance of the CRAEDO Auditorium complex, as well as from the statues inside this building, this site is dedicated to Pallas Athena, the Greek Goddess of Wisdom.
Michel Manen: The motto of the CRAEDO Auditorium is the latin saying: Columna Regni Sapientia, which translates as: Wisdom is the foundation of the state.
Michel Manen: We hope that the series of lectures, seminars and conferences starting here, today, will contribute to the development of wisdom and knowledge in the unique democratic experiment that is constituted by the CDS.
Michel Manen: As you may know, the Confederation of Democratic Simulators is the only Second Life community that is truly democratic, with its own Legislative Assembly, regular elections, and own justice system.
Michel Manen:
Michel Manen: Outside this Auditorium, to the left, just above the sea, you will notice a telescope.
Michel Manen: If you look through it, you will see, spinning slowly on a background of a myriad galaxies, our planet: Earth.
Michel Manen: First Life as seen from Second Life: a very appropriate metaphor for the lecture we will have the pleasure to hear today.
Michel Manen: At CRAEDOs invitation , well-known European physics and IT specialist and Second Life expert David Orban will deliver todays lecture, entitled The Theory And Practice of Democracy in Virtual Worlds.
Michel Manen: As you can see, this event is being filmed live in-world and will be uploaded on YouTube in the near future.
Michel Manen:
Michel Manen: David Orban is a Hungarian-born physics enthusiast and Information Technology professional who lectures widely throughout Europe on issues related to physics, technology, the internet and Second Life.
Michel Manen: He studied physics at Padova University, in Italy -where he read books such as Godel, Escher, Bach by Douglas Hofstadter, and others by Dennett, Penrose, and the likes.
Michel Manen: He then moved to Milano where he pursued his work.
Michel Manen: Today, he is CEO of Questar, a software firm in Milano.
Michel Manen: He is described by one of his former classmates as an individual with a broad scientific culture and very clear ideas - a better word would be vision - on several fundamental issues on science, computing, and technology.
Michel Manen:
Michel Manen: David has his own website, blog and wiki where he discusses issues that interest him and shares his activities with a wider audience.
Michel Manen: He has recently delivered an in-world seminar entitled "Virtual Worlds And Second Life - Towards The Metaverse", wihich was held on Berkman Island, home of Harvard University in Second Life on 16 January 2006.
Michel Manen: He also delivered this seminar in Italian, at the Crema Campus of the University of Milan, and in-world in cooperation with Universita Parioli, a Second Life University directed by CDS Citizen and CARE Member Bruno Echegaray.
Michel Manen:
Michel Manen: Without further ado, please welcome David Orban!
Michel Manen: Please click on your Sound Button to listen to the voice podcast of David's speech.
Ashcroft Burnham: 
Michel Manen: /handshake davidorban
Michel shakes Davidorban's hand.
Gwyneth Llewelyn applauds.
Davidorban Agnon:
Davidorban Agnon:
Davidorban Agnon: Welcome to this seminar about The theory and practice of democracy in virtual worlds.
Davidorban Agnon: I want to thank CARE, CRAEDO, and the Confederation of Democratic Simulators for inviting me to give this talk at the inauguration of this auditorium.
NEWB Mountain: '
Davidorban Agnon: After the presentation we will open the discussion, and I will be very glad to answer all your questions during our live chat.
Davidorban Agnon:
Davidorban Agnon: What are we going to talk about?
Davidorban Agnon: We are going to try and define how democracy might work in virtual worlds, and how it should differ from its traditional forms.
Davidorban Agnon: What elements form the basis of the polity in the real world.
Davidorban Agnon: The new challenges and opportunities that we face and our choices.
Davidorban Agnon: What is the new role of law and justice.
Davidorban Agnon: How do we practice democracy online.
Davidorban Agnon: What is the cloud of will.
Davidorban Agnon: How do our freedoms evolve.
Davidorban Agnon:
Davidorban Agnon: My objective today, in analyzing the nature of democracy online is that of persuading you that the online worlds cannot exist in isolation, and that they are interdependent with the real world.
Davidorban Agnon: This mutual influence is a non-zero sum game, beneficial to both, and it is up to the new to shake the old, it is up to the online world to lead.
Davidorban Agnon: I want to give you my views on how it must be possible to arrive to a virtuous circle, where the values, the processes, and the goals of both worlds are enhanced by this interaction.
Davidorban Agnon:
Davidorban Agnon: The foundations of any given polity in the real world derive their utility from the nature of the world itself.
Davidorban Agnon: The structure of society is defined by the varying degree of access to fundamentals.
Davidorban Agnon: These fundamentals are those of property, resources and knowledge.
Davidorban Agnon: Also, in a manner that is surprisingly implicit, a real-world societies must accept, without exception, all laws of nature.
Davidorban Agnon: This acceptance is necessary even when there is a total lack of understanding of the same laws.
Davidorban Agnon: This is even part of a certain definition of reality, as that which doesn't stop existing if you stop believing in it.
Davidorban Agnon:
Davidorban Agnon: Democracy is often perceived as the best form of government.
Davidorban Agnon: The history of the last century showed us several failed experiments of alternative organizations.
Davidorban Agnon: Success here is in turn based on the happiness of the members of society. Their individual liberty to pursue their different goals.
Davidorban Agnon: But the traditional definitions also include, for their practical implementation, a series of details that are not coherently applicable.
Davidorban Agnon: We can easily define the meaning of territory in the virtual world, that of citizenship, and the actions through which the deliberations are implemented...
Davidorban Agnon: Where do we put however the correspondent concept of a sovereign State?
Davidorban Agnon: We can't carry through our actions to their final conclusion without it. Or can we?
Davidorban Agnon: Well, one possible outcome of the emerging importance of online worlds, and their increasing role in our lives is the fundamental change in the relationship to the traditional concept of nation-state.
Davidorban Agnon: It is not very practical to be a citizen of multiple nations, but being a citizen of an online world, simultaneously with being a citizen of a real nation are not mutually exclusive.
Davidorban Agnon: These two will complement each other as our multiple identities will play out their respective roles, and duties.
Davidorban Agnon:
Ashcroft Burnham: BRB
Davidorban Agnon: Second Life as a universe is the property of Linden Lab, which decides upon fundamental rules of behavior, based on a terms of service contract.
Davidorban Agnon: Right from the start Linden Lab was sufficiently forward-looking to explicitly assign the property rights of all objects created by the users to the users themselves.
Davidorban Agnon: The users lease land where they can create objects, or buildings, and use the local currency called Linden dollar, L$.
Davidorban Agnon: The L$ has a daily floating exchange rate with the US dollar.
Davidorban Agnon: Actually there are players online that speculate on their variation of this exchange rate.
Davidorban Agnon: All of this economic activity is encouraged by Linden Lab instead of being opposed.
Davidorban Agnon: Since there is no fundamental reality in the virtual world, apart from a consensual one, the legal agreements constitute the entire scaffolding of what becomes reality.
Davidorban Agnon: This is true not only for agreements between Linden Lab and the Second Life residents, but also for those that the residents form among themselves.
Davidorban Agnon:
Davidorban Agnon: How should a theory of democracy take shape in the virtual world?
Davidorban Agnon: We have a chance to abandon the artificial distinction adopted during the Renaissance between sciences and humanities.
Davidorban Agnon: And recognize that our political theories have to be as formal as the ones we have for physics.
Davidorban Agnon: As such, they have to have a formal mathematical framework and offer falsifiable hypotheses.
Davidorban Agnon: They must predict expected results for experiments which can be carried through in a practical manner, and be non-trivial.
Davidorban Agnon: The question that we can start with as a first step, in my opinion, is that of establishing the difference between the fundamental reasons democracy exists in the real world versus the virtual world.
Davidorban Agnon: What are the different rights and liberties that are protected in the two cases?
Davidorban Agnon: The control of access to limited material resources is central in the real world for example, bringing us property rights.
Davidorban Agnon: In the information age, however, it is access to knowledge, and tools of knowledge creation and manipulation that become critical.
Davidorban Agnon: The aggregations that we know of as cities and nations in the real world have had specific reasons to existence.
Davidorban Agnon: Their equivalents in the online world will have to find their own, independent reasons, otherwise the residents will not uphold them.
Davidorban Agnon:
Davidorban Agnon: Any experiment in the real world, if it carries weight, is expensive, difficult, and potentially dangerous.
Davidorban Agnon: The advantage of the virtual world, at least for the moment (and we must strive to preserve this for the future), is that we are freer to experiment.
Davidorban Agnon: We have to design repeatable experiments with carefully chosen parameters, collect and analyze the resulting data in a numerical fashion.
Davidorban Agnon: An example of such an experiment is that of identifying a new balance between direct and representative democracies.
Davidorban Agnon: Another experiment, naturally enough, is that of the dependability of electronic voting.
Davidorban Agnon: While a final example could be, more provocatively, that of a voting system that expressed a weighing through a system of merit, based on a given utility function.
Davidorban Agnon: These, and many others, will have to be of course not only designed, but themselves decided upon.
Davidorban Agnon: The entirely voluntary nature of participation in the online worlds is a great advantage here.
Davidorban Agnon: It will be certainly hard work to find all the right solutions to these detailed issues.
Davidorban Agnon: The self-selecting mechanisms of online communities should guarantee however an ever-present supply of enthusiastic volunteers.
Davidorban Agnon: Eventually, the system is well formed enough to become self-sustaining.
Davidorban Agnon:
Davidorban Agnon: We have to take advantage, and practice within these new much larger bounds, while still human.
Davidorban Agnon: There are numerous advantages to be had, in properly managing our reputation systems. Reputation systems regulate so many of our interactions in the real world without receiving the proper formal analysis.
Davidorban Agnon: Our actions in the real world shape our identities as perceived by others, but they are treated with the superficiality of the familiar.
Davidorban Agnon: Their weight and value are not appreciated, as long as we don't break some rule or regulation.
Davidorban Agnon: Online is different already, and the touchy issues of privacy, and identity show how much our actions need to be more carefully analysed.
Davidorban Agnon: Our traces which we leave online, have to become a powerful individual asset, which we must be able and properly leverage.
Davidorban Agnon: The management of these assets, and their protection could become a primary goal of the online Polity.
Davidorban Agnon: The understanding that we will derive from this will show the exercise to be useful and applicable.
Davidorban Agnon: The creativity of this political landscape will guide new bases of emancipation, mutual enhancement, and global deep reach.
Davidorban Agnon: It will naturally lead to a transparent, tolerant, and diverse online society.
Davidorban Agnon:
Davidorban Agnon: The nature of the Legislative Power in virtual worlds is different than in the real world.
Davidorban Agnon: With laws shaping reality, its responsibility is higher, even more so since the individuals subject themselves to the laws voluntarily.
Davidorban Agnon: On the other hand, even more so initially when so much of unexplored political territory must be discovered, the rules and regulations must be part of bold experiments.
Davidorban Agnon: We must not have too much regard to negative consequences.
Davidorban Agnon: These will be temporary, and their damage will be limited.
Davidorban Agnon: But the advantage of the discovery of new tools will be unmatchable.
Davidorban Agnon: The change in perspective from local to global issues, for example, is something that seldom is afforded by real world legislators, even when necessary.
Davidorban Agnon:
Davidorban Agnon: The traditional role of the judiciary has been that of putting the law in practice through its actions.
Multi Gadget v1.50.0 by Timeless Prototype
Davidorban Agnon: This has been a cumbersome and sometimes very inefficient and impractical task.
Davidorban Agnon: If we can reach the goal of a more formal description of the rules that govern our online world, than a new role will emerge for the judiciary.
Davidorban Agnon: This judiciary will have a much more powerful toolset, resembling that of programmers using modern paradigms and languages.
Davidorban Agnon: This new role will be fundamental in making sure that the practical experiments correspond to the implementation of the models, and the theories behind them.
Davidorban Agnon: As the law is the scaffolding of reality in the virtual world, the judiciary will be the ones upholding it.
Davidorban Agnon: The old excuse This is a bad law, but it is still my job to enforce it will become weaker and weaker, as quick revision cycles will improve the system.
Davidorban Agnon: Just as legislators are the software architects of the online political reality, the judiciary is its quality assurance tester.
Davidorban Agnon:
Davidorban Agnon: Evolution is often and wrongly equated with progress, while it is adaptation to a changing environment, without regard to its direction.
Davidorban Agnon: However, if in interconnected systems a new complex emerges, that enables a given part to work at a higher level of efficiency.
Davidorban Agnon: In such a case, the rest of the entire group of systems must either evolve a similar efficiency, or succumb.
Davidorban Agnon: These give us a perfect recipe for making sure that online democracies matter.
Davidorban Agnon: First we must show that the experiments we implement have concrete advantages above their real counterparts.
Davidorban Agnon: Second, we must select issues that touch upon the real world as well, and where the greater efficiency expressed can have an impact.
Davidorban Agnon: My favourite example of this is the planetary environment, where the decisions we will soon have to make are of breathtaking risk, just as the risk of not taking them.
Davidorban Agnon: How can either real-world science, or real-world politics decide, with insufficient powers of visualization, and analysis?
Davidorban Agnon: It could very well be the case, that the tools we have in the online worlds for policy shaping are necessary to inform better decisions about the real world environment.
Davidorban Agnon:
Davidorban Agnon: Here is a caveat that is worth facing right away, even more so given that it is an opportunity to enrich all of the online experience.
Davidorban Agnon: If we choose issues that are relevant to the real world, it will be more and more difficult to keep the online and offline identities separate.
Davidorban Agnon: For some people this is not a problem, but for others it definitely is, at least as the online worlds work today.
Davidorban Agnon: Here, the suspension of disbelief in enacting the roles of ones avatar is so important.
Davidorban Agnon: We will have to achieve greater flexibility in managing multiple identities, with a finer grained control over their interactions with what we are and how they shape us.
Davidorban Agnon: At the same way we will have to be able and distinguish the various roles others assume.
Davidorban Agnon: There is a clear opportunity here for Linden Lab to intervene, and tweak the rules regulating Second Life to proactively recognize this need once it presents itself.
Davidorban Agnon:
Davidorban Agnon: We live in a software world, where not only it is taken for granted, that better and better algorithms will serve us, but even ourselves are represented by our avatars.
Davidorban Agnon: How soon will we grow comfortable delegating decisions to the software agents that incessantly follow us around?
Davidorban Agnon: We already do so in the case of anti-spam filters!
Davidorban Agnon: Our will is itself express by this cloud within which we fly exploring the virtual landscape.
Davidorban Agnon: Let me give you a simple example:
Davidorban Agnon: If we have an election every week, I can understand the issues, and participate.
Davidorban Agnon: If we have one every day, or every hour, this becomes much less plausible.
Davidorban Agnon: But assume that the issue to be decided is the style of music to be streamed in this Auditorium, and my likes are programmatically accessible.
Davidorban Agnon: In this case, I can without doubt delegate my vote to an agent representing my will, with the full knowledge that it will correspond to what I really want.
Davidorban Agnon: How soon will we see groupings of clouds of will at the center of which autonomous agents express their own free choices?
Davidorban Agnon: The complexity of our systems will dictate that we use as much help as possible managing them.
Davidorban Agnon: As soon as one system will start employing a higher efficiency formation of such kind, as the previous reasoning shows, it will be adopted by all.
Davidorban Agnon: We must start now understanding its meaning!
Davidorban Agnon:
Davidorban Agnon: Through interconnected, interoperable, multiple virtual worlds, the degrees of freedom through which we express our opportunities will grow.
Davidorban Agnon: Our challenges will match, but hopefully not exceed the power of these new tools of organization, analysis, and action.
Davidorban Agnon: There is no guarantee, and our only choice is that of carefully but forcefully pursue the understanding of the power we have.
Davidorban Agnon: Where the worlds collide, be they real or virtual, as long as the distinction makes sense, our new formal methods will propose newer levels of organization, and complexity.
Davidorban Agnon: We cannot afford to forget the real world: no virtual world today can exist without it!
Davidorban Agnon: Our activities in the virtual worlds, interconnected as they are, must benefit from and provide benefit to the real world we still live in.
Davidorban Agnon:
Davidorban Agnon: Thank you all for your attention.
Michel Manen:
Michel Manen:
Michel Manen: Thank you, David, for your insightful and inspiring remarks.
Michel Manen: I am certain your comments and ideas will prove invaluable to us all here, in the CDS, and in Second Life generally, as we strive to create a more open, participative, democratic environment based on principles of freedom, fairness, and the rule of law.
Michel Manen:
Michel Manen: David has kindly agreed to take now questions from the audience.
Prokofy Neva: Question?
Michel Manen: So anyone who wishes to ask David a question, please line up behind the audience lectern.
Maneo Suntzu: Do you believe there is a critical path for these virtual interconnected systems because they are complex?
Maneo Suntzu: oops!
Michel Manen: It is very important that all of you who wish to speak and ask a question touch the black notetaker box on the small table to my right.
Michel Manen: Your comments will be recorded and saved as part of this conference.
Michel Manen:
Michel Manen: Finally, if you wish to obtain a copy of Davids speech, please touch the Greek vase on the same round table, next to the recorder, and you will be handed a notecard with the text of his speech.
Prokofy Neva has indicated consent to be recorded.
Michel Manen:
Michel Manen: And now, any questions for David?
Michel Manen:
Michel Manen:
Redaktisto Noble has indicated consent to be recorded.
Prokofy Neva: David, I wonder if you could comment on the Linden-created voting tools, the Feature Voting Tool
Davidorban Agnon: I haven't used them, so I cannot comment on
Prokofy Neva: The reason I have come to worry about such devices made soley by engineers without political philosophers input
Prokofy Neva: is that you cannot vote "NO"
Davidorban Agnon: their nature
Davidorban Agnon: however
Davidorban Agnon: I confirm that
Prokofy Neva: That's the issue I'd like for you to address if you could, tools where you cannot vote "no," where the "wisdom of the crowd" is hijacked into only passing upwards positive proposals, in social engineering
Davidorban Agnon: a great variety
Davidorban Agnon: of tools will be needed.
Davidorban Agnon: A meta-analysis of tools
Prokofy Neva: well take a look if you have time sometime
Davidorban Agnon: where you can vote on good voting systems, and push down bad ones
Davidorban Agnon: I will for sure, and post my comments on it
Davidorban Agnon: There was a question about critical paths
Maneo Suntzu: Do you believe there is a critical path for these virtual interconnected systems because they are complex?
Maneo Suntzu: Yes mine.
Davidorban Agnon: You are welcome
Davidorban Agnon: If you mean by critical path
Davidorban Agnon: that there is just one
Davidorban Agnon: for them to reach
Davidorban Agnon: higher leves
Davidorban Agnon: of organization
Davidorban Agnon: than no,
Davidorban Agnon: I think that
Davidorban Agnon: there will be many paths
Prokofy Neva: Yes that's the problem they push yes ostensibly to refine only the positive and keep out "spamming" but positive is spamming too
Dave Attenborough: how could a online-democtratic system really work in a capitalistic "game" run by a company that is going to be mega-con (like microsoft and google) soon
Prokofy Neva: then there is no legitimate feedback system to vote 'no" at flash mobs
Prokofy Neva: Well I don't have a problem with capitalism the way you evidently do I guess, but even communists these days let you vote no, David.
Davidorban Agnon: I am hesitant to comment on the specific development of Linden Lab
Davidorban Agnon: as a company
Davidorban Agnon: you are right in saying that
TOPGenosse Brouwer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Davidorban Agnon: this situation is exploding
Davidorban Agnon: and there are only two choices
Davidorban Agnon: in my opinion
Prokofy Neva: why wouldn't you want to comment on the specific develop of a company that is shaping the Metaverse in its origins? That's fine
Davidorban Agnon: data the company can follow
Davidorban Agnon: either they start to relinquish control
Davidorban Agnon: as the have started
Davidorban Agnon: we did the open source client
Davidorban Agnon: for example by open sourcing the server as well
Davidorban Agnon: or
Davidorban Agnon: if the capitalistic reasons make them miopic
Davidorban Agnon: then the world will abandon them
Davidorban Agnon: and find a new foundation for the Metaverse
Davidorban Agnon: from a technical point of view
Davidorban Agnon: the issue is:
Prokofy Neva: Hey your Lindens are the first capitalists to make capito-socialism.
Davidorban Agnon: who will become the inventor of the http protocol for the metaverse
Prokofy Neva: it's all the socialism you love, it's all there, trust me : )
Davidorban Agnon: and will that organization be farseeing enogh
Davidorban Agnon: to make it into a standard
Davidorban Agnon: So back to the critical path
Davidorban Agnon: if the development of Second Life
Davidorban Agnon: will be healthy
Davidorban Agnon: then the structures
Davidorban Agnon: generated within it
Prokofy Neva: I think I will sit backwards and be a dis-sid-ent
Davidorban Agnon: are going to be healthy as well
Davidorban Agnon: and according to my thesis
Davidorban Agnon: one condition for this is interoperability with other worlds (or opening up of SL servers)
Davidorban Agnon: and the other condition is that of interacting with the real world
Davidorban Agnon: Do you have anything to add to this Michel?
Michel Manen: Thanks David
Michel Manen: I think you are right
Michel Manen: in that
Michel Manen: the links
Michel Manen: betwen RL and SL
Michel Manen: will prove critical
Michel Manen: for the development of both
Michel Manen: the creativity
Michel Manen: and dynamism
Michel Manen: and participation we show here
Michel Manen: will spur on
Michel Manen: a change of paradigm
Michel Manen: in how we conduct
Michel Manen: RL politics
Michel Manen: and make our global system of governance
Michel Manen: more adequate
Michel Manen: for the 21st centtury challenges we now all face
Jayson Watkin has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jayson Watkin: I have a question
Davidorban Agnon: hi Jayson
Michel Manen: yes jayson
Davidorban Agnon: please go ahead
Jayson Watkin: hello
Jayson Watkin: You touched earlier on a judiciary as being part of the quality control, and I'm paraphrasing, for the SL experience. Without the power to imprison or assess judgments or seizures, how do you see a judiciary functioning in SL?
Davidorban Agnon: Yes, you are right
Davidorban Agnon: part of justice is "punishment" for the ones who break the laws.
Davidorban Agnon: The extreme measure of pushiment from the 'ggods' of Linded today is being terminated
Davidorban Agnon: And the question of what happens to your assets in that case is actually open in RL lawsuits right now.
Davidorban Agnon: But within a given SL polity, like Colonia Nova, a finer grained punishment is necessary.
Davidorban Agnon: The value for many is participation in the communities.
Davidorban Agnon: Participation in democracy is being par of the deliberations.
Davidorban Agnon: If you don't behave you cannot vote
Davidorban Agnon: If voting is not just every two years, or four
Davidorban Agnon: but part of the daily life, than not voting is a concrete punishment
Davidorban Agnon: but this is just an example, of course
Michel Manen: THat is a good question. It shows we cannot simply adapt RL insitutions and copy them for SL.. It is true we can n ot imprison people in SL. But there are other ways of enforcing decisions. Imagine for example that you live in a sim; mauybe own a home or business there. The ultimate penality could be your permannet banishment from that sim. You could go to other sims, true. But you wwill certainly be affected by being cast out of your home, business. community. There are also lessere penalities available, such as
Jayson Watkin: So a judicially imposed sanction would be ostrasizing the offender?
Davidorban Agnon: There could be different measures
Davidorban Agnon: physical presence could be still allowed
Davidorban Agnon: but not voting.
Michel Manen: temporary banishment, even fines, rent increases. All we need to do is show creativity, and the ability to adapt RL institutions to SL environment and needs
Davidorban Agnon: several levels of punishment are necessary
Jayson Watkin: thank you
Davidorban Agnon: Preparing a lecture on virtual worlds for example is a good one
Davidorban Agnon: 
Davidorban Agnon: Hi Cinnamon
cinnamon Daniels: i have a question observation
Ashcroft Burnham: David, you wrote about legal rules earlier, and how (if I understand you correctly), you envisaged them as being more precise. Can you explain how you think that this could work?
cinnamon Daniels: hi
cinnamon Daniels: you never mentioned economics
cinnamon Daniels: market forces particularly
Davidorban Agnon: (Ashcroft, I will answer you question later. Please come over to the front to ask it. Thanks)
cinnamon Daniels: if sl is a success it will have to go public to maintain its position against competitors
Davidorban Agnon: Cinnamon,
Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, sorry
Davidorban Agnon: yes
Davidorban Agnon: I did not talk about economy, and economics a lot
Davidorban Agnon: just touched on it
cinnamon Daniels: well if public and i am a shareholder i have democratic voice and control
Davidorban Agnon: and you are right economy shapes the online worlds as well.
Davidorban Agnon: Linded Lab will have to progress as a company, and either going public, or being bought is a road that they will take.
Davidorban Agnon: Being a resident does not give you ownership of Linden Lab as a company
Katie Cummings has indicated consent to be recorded.
cinnamon Daniels: but being a shareholder does anyway thanks
Michel Manen: Red?
Michel Manen: you hae a question?
Davidorban Agnon: It would be nice if Linden gave shares to residents.
Redaktisto Noble: Indeed.
Redaktisto Noble: What models of virtual democracy could you hold up for us as successful? Or is this all just theoretical?
Davidorban Agnon: But current regulations prohibit wide ownership of shares without formally going public.
Davidorban Agnon: Michel, this is yours, I think.
Redaktisto Noble: No this is for you David.
Michel Manen: The question of the rights and responsibilites of avatars in SL is critical
Michel Manen: both in terms of particpation
Davidorban Agnon: Ok.
Michel Manen: and in terms of legal enfrocement
Davidorban Agnon: All forms of online participation form implicit societies, associations.
Davidorban Agnon: Whether these are democratical or authoritarian, it is up to the participants to work out.
Davidorban Agnon: So online forums,
Davidorban Agnon: discussion groups,
Davidorban Agnon: irc channels
Michel Manen: That is why we at CARE are now working an a Bill of Avatars; Rights and Responsibiliites, that will define the relationship between various players.. avatars, sim owners, Linden Labs, even the Real World.
Davidorban Agnon: the good old The Well
Davidorban Agnon: are all examples of virtual societies
cinnamon Daniels: nye where are you
Davidorban Agnon: the fact that SL gives clear visitble body to the metaphor makes it
Davidorban Agnon: easier to understand that this is the case
Davidorban Agnon: Some people don't want to work on democratic principles because they are hard work!
cinnamon Daniels: come out nyou crab
Davidorban Agnon: a lot of talking!
Ashcroft Burnham: Oops, sorry...
Davidorban Agnon: and in the short term not efficient.
Davidorban Agnon: (I was referring to democracy as a lot of talking... )
Redaktisto Noble: So any models to hold up for us as successful?
Davidorban Agnon: So yes, there are online forums, where the rules for posting, discussing, deleting, etc. are decided democratically.
Davidorban Agnon: I do think that COlonia Nova
Davidorban Agnon: is taking the experiment farther than
cinnamon Daniels: are you a boar or a bore today?
Davidorban Agnon: anybody else
Nye Mu: im only please
Michel Manen: Well i think thtat CDS is a great example. Caledon is working towards its own version of participation.
Prokofy Neva: I think you can't build socialistic principles into democracy, it truly has to be free for any social system, Michel
Michel Manen: and there are other communities in SL that are also doing their oen experiemnts
Prokofy Neva: You can play at government here but the first task is to get a seat on the board of LL
Michel Manen: well
Prokofy Neva: that's why I've called for a seat to represent all tier-payers
Michel Manen: i think that
Michel Manen: using old lables
Prokofy Neva: who collectively pay more than $10 million a year like a venture capitalist
Michel Manen: of captalism socialism liberalism conservatism
Prokofy Neva: so you need a small-holders party like in Hungary in a sense
Michel Manen: generated in the 19th century
Michel Manen: is no longer adequate
Prokofy Neva: people get very angry about the notion of landowners being the basis for democracy or governance
Michel Manen: for the needs of the 21st century issues
Prokofy Neva: yet historically that is how it has worked
Michel Manen: we neeed to think fresh
Michel Manen: more creatively
Michel Manen: more laterllay
Michel Manen: ito innovate and combine
Michel Manen: and develop bnew sistems
Prokofy Neva: so you can create a party called "The Sheer Numbers Party" of alts, day-olds, griefers, whatever, and let them lobby
Michel Manen: where what counts
Michel Manen: is not a label
Prokofy Neva: but the people paying the bottom line here need to bring accountability
Michel Manen: but the ablity to pariticapte and develop
Michel Manen: the most legitimate
Michel Manen: andeffective solaution
Michel Manen: to a probelm'
Prokofy Neva: no labels do count Michel, and nothing is new under the sun, even the artificial Linden sun rising and setting 8 times a day
Prokofy Neva: I'd be interested to hear what David Orban thinks about the basis of property for governance
Michel Manen: thatk you Prrok. Next question?
Prokofy Neva: as I can hear you any time, but he's here only today I think
Prokofy Neva: you answered my questions, lol, he didn't
Davidorban Agnon: I agree that it is hard to keep LL out of the picture
Davidorban Agnon: But SL is just an example of virtual worlds
Davidorban Agnon: not the end of the game
Davidorban Agnon: it is successful now
Davidorban Agnon: but there will be many others
Davidorban Agnon: the www has been born
Davidorban Agnon: 15 years ago
Prokofy Neva: Well, how many people showed up for socialist government? Was it 27? lol
Davidorban Agnon: there were just a few websites then
Davidorban Agnon: the internet has been born 30 years ago
Davidorban Agnon: what I want to think about (and yes, other thoghts are as important as this)
Davidorban Agnon: is how the virtual worlds will evolve in 10 20 years
Davidorban Agnon: issues like the current problems of server allocation for sim creation
Davidorban Agnon: etc
Davidorban Agnon: are going to be rather quaint by then
Prokofy Neva: no
Michel Manen: TOP.. you have a question?
Prokofy Neva: not at all
TOPGenosse Brouwer: yes
Prokofy Neva: in fact the walled gardens will be more valued
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Mr. Orban, if there is 1 hypothesis our small democracy (the CDS) should test, what do you think would be the most interesting?
Davidorban Agnon: just as the question of LL going public or not.
Michel Manen: Prof please let others speak too please
Prokofy Neva: open source will only mean a million Balkanized enclaves
Michel Manen: top?
Prokofy Neva: Michel, you've done an awful lot of talking yourself lol
Davidorban Agnon: Hi TOPGenosse
TOPGenosse Brouwer: I'll past the question again: Mr. Orban, if there is 1 hypothesis our small democracy (the CDS) should test, what do you think would be the most interesting?
Davidorban Agnon: yes, prioritising is important, because we are dealing with human participants in the experiment
Davidorban Agnon: and we need instant gratification
Davidorban Agnon: if we do 3 experiments
Davidorban Agnon: and they are not spectacular
Davidorban Agnon: there could be CS memebers who get bored
Davidorban Agnon: and write off the entire thing
Davidorban Agnon: as a fad
Davidorban Agnon: or journalists who move on the next sensational news item to write about
Davidorban Agnon: But
Davidorban Agnon: the evolutionary advantages I am talking about can only work
TOPGenosse Brouwer: (But if we try to do it seriously and scientifically? What should we test?)
Davidorban Agnon: with the large numbers
Redaktisto Noble: Did somebody say sensational news item?
Davidorban Agnon: ok
Davidorban Agnon: top
Davidorban Agnon: but
Davidorban Agnon: I will have to think more about examples to give you
Davidorban Agnon: (sorry a lot of lag over here)
Davidorban Agnon: but
Davidorban Agnon: let me try and give you some now
TOPGenosse Brouwer: You're welcome to let us know (forum) or Michel
Davidorban Agnon: I will
Davidorban Agnon: it should not be difficlut
Davidorban Agnon: if we play around with the parameters
Davidorban Agnon: ownership
Davidorban Agnon: voting
Davidorban Agnon: participatino
Davidorban Agnon: etc.
Davidorban Agnon: but it is importnat that the participants in the experiment accept freely
Davidorban Agnon: both being part of it,
Davidorban Agnon: and the outcome
Davidorban Agnon: ok.
Michel Manen: Ash? you have a question?
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Thank you.
Davidorban Agnon: let's flesh this out in the forums
Ashcroft Burnham: Yes...
Michel Manen: go ahead please
Davidorban Agnon: ashcroft
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Would be very interesting.
Davidorban Agnon: you had a question
Ashcroft Burnham: Earlier you wrote, "If we can reach the goal of a more formal description of the rules that govern our online world, than a new role will emerge for the judiciary. This judiciary will have a much more powerful toolset, resembling that of programmers using modern paradigms and languages." Being a real-life lawyer, I'm intrigued to know exactly what you meant by that.
Davidorban Agnon: Ashcroft come up to the stand, please, if you can
Davidorban Agnon: I can't see you
Ashcroft Burnham: First-life legal systems have been spending thousands of years trying to get their rules more precise and predictable - how do you see virtual worlds as a means of acheiving this?
Davidorban Agnon: ok
Kiwi Alfa: David: Ashcroft is at the stand.
Davidorban Agnon: sorry
Davidorban Agnon: it must be the lag
Ashcroft Burnham: Lag is evil.
Davidorban Agnon: I don't see him/her/it
Davidorban Agnon: anyway
Davidorban Agnon: back to the question
Davidorban Agnon: I am a technocrat
Davidorban Agnon: so you will not be surprised
Davidorban Agnon: if the (partial) solution
Davidorban Agnon: I am proposing
Davidorban Agnon: will come from algorithms
Davidorban Agnon: at the www consortium
Davidorban Agnon: there is an initiative that is going on since a few years
Davidorban Agnon: called the 'semantic web'
Davidorban Agnon: I don't kniw if you have heard of it
Davidorban Agnon: it is meant to ease the understanding of the interchanges between machines
Ashcroft Burnham: How would these algorithms help with, for example, telling a court what to do if a party has filed a document slightly late, or how a phrase in a contract should be interpreted?
Davidorban Agnon: and (now I see you!)
Ashcroft Burnham: (Good!)
Davidorban Agnon: Ah, that example if perfect!
Davidorban Agnon: If a court is working under rules that are as clear as the date for a filing
Davidorban Agnon: than if
Davidorban Agnon: both the proceeding, and the rules
Davidorban Agnon: are contained in an automated system
Davidorban Agnon: than the flag of late filing can be automated as well.
Davidorban Agnon: The second example you gave is more difficult
Davidorban Agnon: to answer briefly I do believe that in a few years
Davidorban Agnon: computers will indeed be able to analyse and formally describe natural human language.
Ashcroft Burnham: Aha, but often courts have a *discretion* as to what to do about late documents, that takes into account the *reasons* that they were filed late, and the *effect* that the late filing has on the other parties - how would an automated system acheive the same result?
Davidorban Agnon: yes
Davidorban Agnon: these issues are subtle
Davidorban Agnon: Actually
Davidorban Agnon: in my opinion
Davidorban Agnon: the solutions will be there
Davidorban Agnon: sooner
Davidorban Agnon: and the biggest obstacle
Davidorban Agnon: will be that of the large part
Davidorban Agnon: of human operators
Davidorban Agnon: who will not be ready
Davidorban Agnon: to change their ways
Davidorban Agnon: and will cling to the tradition
Ashcroft Burnham: I think that you'll need to make computers more intellectually intelligent than humans to achieve all that... but I'll let the next person ask a questio now
Davidorban Agnon: even if inefficient or downright harmful.
Davidorban Agnon: I will be glad to follow up on this later as well. Thanks!
Davidorban Agnon: hi Katie!
Katie Cummings: Speaking as someone with an interest in somewhat massive spans of economic development, I was particulary interested in what you had to say about the quantification of somewhat esoteric principles of political belief. I agree that we have a very exciting forum for futuristic research here. Will you be pursuing the measurement of these through your own company david? It could easily be achieved through development of already existing software.
Davidorban Agnon: I can see you .. that is a good start!
Davidorban Agnon: Hey katie!
Davidorban Agnon: You are asking if Questar is going to be part of this?
Davidorban Agnon: Betcha!
Davidorban Agnon:
Katie Cummings: good oh
Katie Cummings: i would be delighted to discuss it further also
Katie Cummings: thank you
Michel Manen: Thank you David for your remarks and for answering questions form our audience. I hope you all enjoyed this event and will continue to participate in shaping our virtual world. There are many groups whao right now are trying to affect the nature of rights, powers and responsiblilitesin SL, in a cooperative and consensua manner, and engaging Linden Labs. I am pleaseed that Ashcroft Burnham, the founder of one such arganization, the Local Government Study Group, is with us today. So thank you all for manking this lecture a great success-- and hopefully the first in many such events to be hosted here, at the CRAEDO Auditorium.
Michel Manen: /handshake davidorban
Ashcroft Burnham: And if anybody wants to join the group, it's open enrolment
Michel shakes Davidorban's hand.
Ashcroft Burnham:
Michel Manen: If tehre are any reporters
Michel Manen: or news pemida people
Michel Manen: who wish to tak to david
Michel Manen: please come up
Davidorban Agnon: Thank you all for coming, and for all you questions!
Davidorban Agnon: All my handles are of course on the slide behind
Davidorban Agnon: you are welcome to contact me online as well.
Davidorban Agnon: And in SL too.
END OF CONFERENCE
