Artificial and needless barrier to trade

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Leon
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Artificial and needless barrier to trade

Post by Leon »

I recently tried to set up a gallery within Colonia Nova, but have been thwarted by a seemingly arbitrary 'rule'.

The problem being that I wish to own land in the CDS under two different avatars. I have a legitimate real life reason for this separation, i.e. one avatar is tied to a real world business (with it's own rl legal identity?) and the other to me as a real world person (again with a rl legal identity. Different from the other).

I also have a philosophical problem with the idea of tying avatars to real world persons within the CDS, as within Second Life each avatar is an individual 'resident', with an individual identity. I realise that having a 'rule' about one CDS citizen per real world person may help regulate voting or something I can't think of now, but this is impossible to enforce in any case.

So, the problem is that I wish to 'invest' in the CDS, but have been stopped from doing so by being honest about buying land under an Alt. Had I lied about it no one would have been any wiser and I could have voted twice for everything as a fringe benefit.

Would someone explain why this barrier exists as it seems rather pointless to me?

Thanks
Leon

Diderot Mirabeau
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Re: Artificial and needless barrier to trade

Post by Diderot Mirabeau »

Leon - thanks for the input! I agree fully with you that we should not have any arbitrary barriers to setting up commercial acitivities in the CDS. So I have a few ideas in response to the problem you describe.

First some practical advice on what could be done right now:

Register or incorporate a company and have the company purchase the land. Set up a group bearing the company name and include your business alt in this group. Let the land be owned by the group.

I have just done this with "Mirabeau Scribe", which has a group that includes as members both me and my business alt Dalai Bentham.

On a more philosophical note, there may be a need for a 'registry of citizens' also considering the recent complications in ascertaining who is in fact entitled to citizenship as we have moved to allow collective ownership of land. This will only be made even more complicated when/if Franchulates enter phase II, where I imagine that they may provide the basis of citizenship for more than one person.

I have spoken previously with Sudane on the issue of group / company ownership of land and how it affects citizenship. I understood from my discussion with her that there is indeed some confusion as to who actually owns company-owned land and whether this entitles anyone to citizenship.

As far as I remember from the company code any company established under CDS legislation is entitled to own land as an extension of its rights as a legal entity. This land is owned by the company and can therefore not form the basis of citizenship for anyone - not even the owners of the company.

If this is not sufficiently clear from the registration and incorporation act then I recommend that it be made so.

Alternatively, we should probably establish a citizenship registry act, which requires that anyone who wants to be eligible for citizenship lists the names of all the alts under which he intends to purchase land in the CDS.

If you need further help establishing a company to own the land please do not hesitate to contact me. We may want to wait for Sudane's feedback first as to whether she believes this to be a permissible route. I should think she would considering that I've already used this setup. It might be useful though in any case to let other people chime in about whether they think the wording in the present registration and incorporation act is sufficiently clear on the question of company owned land and its ineligibility to serve as the basis for citizenship.

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Post by Leon »

Thank you for responding Diderot.

I did register my complaint with Sudane and she suggested the same method for circumventing the restriction, however I declined as I do not wish to have the 2 alts holding land together.

In my case I have a real world business that is represented by one and any profits or losses made must be cleanly measured in real life. I've been advised by tax advisor to ensure that both alts are distinct from each other and owning land in a group inadvisable as it blurs the boudary between me the individual and my real life company.

The upshot is that Sudane refunded me the payment I made as my alt as I wasn't aware of this constraint to trade and am in the process of looking for another plot of land outside the CDS. (Which to be honest I'd rather not do.)

Regards
Leon

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Post by Diderot Mirabeau »

[quote="Leon":2hf6oool]I do not wish to have the 2 alts holding land together.[/quote:2hf6oool]
It is not for me to question this decision of yours but I sincerely doubt that most people will be as concerned as you about the seperation of alts while at the same time desiring that both the alt and oneself is involved in the CDS.

Our current legislation on company registration and/or incorporation requires that the owners of a company be CDS citizens. As I see it there is no immediately obvious reason for this requirement.

Alternatively is there a possibility that anyone else from the RL company in question could register the avatar that would own the gallery?

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Post by Leon »

I'm clearly misunderstanding something.

Why would I want to register or incorporate a business in the CDS?

All I want to do is separate two real world ventures into two separate second life entities, which it seems isn't possible within the CDS. Or at least not to anyone honest enough to own up to it.

As far as I know a real world company and a real world owner of that company are two distinct legal entities. I also understand that you may justifiably think I'm silly for making a fuss about this distinction within Second Life, but unfortunately for me the taxman 'insists' that I do. I've put taxman in quotes as my legal advisor isn't exactly the taxman, but I'm sure you get the point.

Lastly, I appreciate that you are trying to help.

Leon

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Post by Diderot Mirabeau »

[quote="Leon":18shqe1k]Why would I want to register or incorporate a business in the CDS?[/quote:18shqe1k]
Well I'm sorry but since your thread bears the title of "barriers to trade in the CDS" I assumed your intention was to bring trade to the CDS. It seemed to me that the registration of a company here would be the best vessel to enable this.

[quote="Leon":18shqe1k]All I want to do is separate two real world ventures into two separate second life entities, which it seems isn't possible within the CDS. Or at least not to anyone honest enough to own up to it.[/quote:18shqe1k]
If you have gone to the trouble of maintaining separate real world ventures is it really too much to ask to file the corresponding, minimal paperwork for the maintenance of a similar separation in CDS?

If you don't want to register a CDS company can't you get someone else from the company to register an avatar and let him act as the representative of the company instead of you?

I'm still more than willing to help. It sounds like the citizens' register or "electoral roll" initiative may end up being the way forward but we'll probably need to consult with the political representatives and the administrator (Sudane) to hear their opinions on the matter.

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Post by Leon »

Diderot,

Bare with me. I'm pretty new to the CDS and hence asked a genuine question about why would I want to register a company in the CDS. Until now I never even knew that option existed.

Could you maybe point me to the relevant information so I can go and look at it.

Thanks
Leon

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Post by Sudane Erato »

Well, Leon has accurately represented what I told him, although I fail to see how this is a "barrier to trade" in the CDS.

The underlying issue is that, whether we have means to determine it or not, the absolute and underlying principle in the CDS is "one person/one vote"... a "person" being one RL human entity. Of course this can be easily disguised! And hundreds of pages have been written in this forum and its predecessor regarding this issue. Bottom line, I feel, is that if using two alts you represent yourself as two different RL entities, you are subject to immediate ejection should this be discovered and proven. (I made up that penalty on the spot :) ).

Next issue. How do we administer this? One might easily say: "Oh, Sudane! Just call my avie Leon the citizen and Tom the non-citizen! No problem!"

Well, *sigh*.... We have established that citizenship is equated with land ownership. We started off with a direct corrolation... the individual owned the land... plain and simple. (We used groups then, but that was an SL requirement... the intent of the group was ONLY to stand as proxy for the individual). If I kept a list of citizens, I could correlate each parcel with its citizen owner. As we expanded in number, my spreadsheet could still keep up.

Then we said... "Oh, now you don't need to own a specific piece of land, only belong to a group with enough land to qualify the members of the group to be citizens." Well, now my correlation between parcel and owner falls apart. If I have a list of citizens from whom i must collect the monthly fee, that list no longer corresponds to the monthly fees that must be paid, since only one of those citizens can pay the fee for that group's land. Further, i have to keep track of the size of the parcel, to determine how many person's that parcel qualifies for citizenship, since any group *can* have any number of members.

And... (there's more!) The covenants set limits on the amount of land that any *one individual* may own. But, now individuals can be qualified as citizens by virtue of their membership in groups. So, the amount of land (or the number of parcels within the city walls) that a group can hold is a dependency of the number of citizens that the group qualifies, which, circularly, depends on amount of land that the group holds.

And... more! Diderot points out that he has purchased land owned by his company, under the provisions of a bill passed early last year enabling companies owned by citizens to embed themselves in the legal system of the CDS by owning land. Here we have land which, by definition, does not qualify anyone to become a citizen.

Why do I carry on like this? Another twist comes along. A citizen wishes to buy land under the name of a different alt. Assuming that the individual intends to comply with our fundamental principle, which he surely does, or he wouldn't have told me, I am now asked to keep track of parcels owned by two separate avatars, who are in fact only one person/citizen! (Whose RL name, of course, is his perfect right to conceal).

I submit that there is nothing wrong with the logic of what Leon wishes to do (at least as far as I can tell... I haven't heard him say clearly that Leon and Tom should each have a vote). The problem is the administration. I only have one little brain and a spreadsheet (actually a number of them) to keep track of all this. I have labored mightily and am still unable to beat out of Filemaker a database enabling me to keep track of simply the Group Land provisions, much less anything else of this.

I propose that until we have "Serious" software in place to handle this welter of complexity regarding land ownership, we impose structural simplicity (to take a page from the like named faction) on this policy, and require that land ownership policy be simple and clear. And I defer to the duly elected representatives to determine what simple and clear might be.....

Sudane.....

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Post by Aliasi Stonebender »

The main problem with your argument, Leon, is while we do not insist on real-life information, we do hold one person, one vote (as Sudane said), and that two avatars owned by the same RL person are two alts of one person, not two persons. The CDS is somewhat between the two views of Second Life, but I think we're slightly tilted towards the "Second Life is a communications platform for real people" interpretation, as opposed to the "Second Life is a world entirely unto itself, RL need not apply" view some hold.

I'm not entirely sure why you need to have the second avatar own land, (other than bookkeeping?) as where the payment comes from has no correllation to who owns the land. It would be entirely possible for you to buy your own, personal land, and then place the "business land" on your business credit card (or whatever).

Sudane is correct in that there's no technical reason why we couldn't declare "Leon is the 'real' AV, the other is for administrative purposes", as we did something similar when LL required private-estate land to be deeded to a group in order to 'sell' it... but there is an "overwhelming Sudane with paperwork" reason.

That said, if we weighted votes to amount of land owned, it would not matter... but one of the principles of the CDS is a person with 128m^2 is just as much a person as one with 1024m^2 or more; having more land is its own reward in a prim-hungry world. Thus, one RL person, one vote. I believe in this principle strongly, and it's not impossible to find out about violations. (I'll stay silent on the methods, since I might need 'em some day. ;) )

That said, don't let this discourage you; we'd much rather find a way that allows you what you need but does not compromise the founding philosophies of the CDS!

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Post by Leon »

Thank you both for responding.

Firstly. I have no desire to have two votes in the CDS.

All I want is a clear distinction between two separate ventures. One with a profit motive and the other for fun. Personally I'd be surprised if I make a profit from putting up some pictures in a gallery. (Needless to say I hope to make a profit from the other one :wink:)

Now if I can set up a SL business in the CDS owned by Leon Ash and registered as the owner of the 128m owned by Leon Ash currently then that will be good enough separation, provided I can still buy and own land as my alt.

In that case my alt will be the citizen and Leon Ash will just be a business owner. Have I understood this correctly?

Now, as to the debate about citizens vs real people vs avatars. Clearly this is a big topic and from the sounds of it pretty well debated and to be honest my instinct is that each avatar is a separate entity and should be treated as such. But think it would be wrong to have a vote per AV? And do you have to own land to be a citizen of the CDS? How about if I'm renting land from someone in the CDS?

Lastly, if it will help I'm willing to work on a data model (and eventually a database) to address what looks like an administration nightmare for Sudane.

Leon

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Post by Sudane Erato »

[quote="Leon":39f6y11s]
In that case my alt will be the citizen and Leon Ash will just be a business owner. Have I understood this correctly? [/quote:39f6y11s]
If "Leon Ash" is a business "Group", such as Diderot's Mireabeau Scribe, then I would be willing to try and administer this.

If Leon Ash is one account (alt) and Tom Bugaboo is another account (alt) of the same RL person, then, no, I'm not willing to do this without the administrative database system in place that you offer to do.

I strongly suspect that we will find data logic circularities already in this system. Without thorough software support, this is trouble waiting to happen.

Sudane.....

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Post by Leon »

Fair enough Sudane.

The easiest way to begin is for you to email me your administration database wishlist.

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Leon

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Post by Sudane Erato »

[quote="Leon":22beo7tt]Fair enough Sudane.

The easiest way to begin is for you to email me your administration database wishlist.

Regards
Leon[/quote:22beo7tt]
Great! You'll have it by Monday.

Sudane.....

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Post by Leon »

[quote="Sudane Erato":f23kk8jt]Great! You'll have it by Monday. [/quote:f23kk8jt]

I look forward to seeing it.

Till then
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Post by Aliasi Stonebender »

[quote="Leon":34gmrwnu]
Now, as to the debate about citizens vs real people vs avatars. Clearly this is a big topic and from the sounds of it pretty well debated and to be honest my instinct is that each avatar is a separate entity and should be treated as such.
[/quote:34gmrwnu]

But, again, each avatar is directly controlled by one (1) real-life person at a time. Avatars can be transferred, true, but not without possible violations of the Linden Lab ToS. We are not really interested in the avatars, but the minds behind them.

[quote:34gmrwnu]
But think it would be wrong to have a vote per AV? And do you have to own land to be a citizen of the CDS? How about if I'm renting land from someone in the CDS?
[/quote:34gmrwnu]

Currently, renting out space on your parcel is disallowed. There's a thin line between it and group citizenship (group citizenship requires all citizens in the group to have been citizens, and then band together in the group), but it's there.

The current definition of a citizen is someone who owns land in the CDS, or belongs to a group that owns land (provided they met the first qualification at some point). There have been discussions to broaden this, but none have yet received sufficent support to become law.

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