Artificial and needless barrier to trade

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Sleazy_Writer
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Post by Sleazy_Writer »

I'm not as knowledgeable as the people posting here, but to me as an outsider it seems that:
- Incorporating "Leon Ash Ltd." in the CDS (owns the land) and having the Leon Ash avie as a non-land owning employee of it, that that seems *faster* to realize than
- designing, creating and finetuning a database for Sudane. (Although it's a very noble goal ofcourse ;-) )

but .. an incorporated group should have more than 1 member, otherwise the Second Life system mayyy abandon it. (Happened to my group, that didn't own land.) You'd have to check this.
I'm glad you didn't give up yet on our complicated on-line community :-)

- - - -
Btw, aren't there many galleries lately? There's Leon, Aria (Gods of Love), Antonius (secret?), Flyingroc (NFS valley) and the MoCA. Five of them!

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Dianne
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Post by Dianne »

Leon's request is a bit odd and everyone is being fab at finding ways around the situation for him, but the fact remains that the definition of what and who is a "citizen" is and always has been a problem in N'Stadt and Colonia Nova.

I will not repeat all the (literally) hundreds of pages of argument that Sudane referred to (I would think her estimate is a bit low even! :) ), but I have always found it interesting that we can't define this very basic thing in any kind of logical or practical way.

The definition of a citizen (especially a voting citizen), is at the crux of any government or state in RL and while we have had "workable" definitions, in SL, we have never had any that really make sense. My opinion is that through no fault of our own we are far to blinded by our reliance on what we [i:1jn47ul3]know[/i:1jn47ul3], i.e. - 2oth century ideals of democracy to really search out something new, or something that would work in a virtual world without having to cross over into RL.

Our current system, like those before it really at the end relies on RL knowledge of the individual (pseudonymous or not), and Leon is really pointing directly at the "dirty little secret" of virtual government here in that the reason we haven't ever defined it properly is that it's likely to be an impossible task.

The definition of what a virtual "citizen" is, is somewhat like a giant black mole on the lip of an otherwise beautiful courtesan that all the suitors dutifully pretend they do not see as it would ruin an otherwise enchanting evening.

:)

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Sleazy_Writer
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Adding another page.

Post by Sleazy_Writer »

OK, I'll add half a page too those 100+ pages about the definition of virtual citizenship. When you said 100 pages my first thought was that you guys were crazy, but now I think of it, this problem probably has some philosophical aspects. Not only philosophical but also social aspects (What kind of voting is suitable for a virtual democracy and what kind of democracy is considered fair?) I'm not sure if I'm in your group of thinkers, Dianne. To me the problem seems more fundamentally related to how the CDS wants to implement citizenship.

[b:1pln94vs](A) If you don't consider each avatar as autonomous [/b:1pln94vs] (with each one it's set of rights), as I suspect most people do, you've got a problem. The problem is that some of us (like me) don't want their SL avie connected to real life. If you allow this anonymity, it's harder to verify if 1 real life autonomous person (or computer or bonobo) controls 1 or more avies. Fake identities exist in real life too, so it's not exclusive to SL, but it's harder to fake: for example, our faces are on our passports and most of us don't have a subscription to the plastic surgeon. But a compromise could be made: e.g. a digital signature that's connected to one's real life ID, so that a RL person could only use 1 avie with a verifiable signature and thus is allowed to vote. Like websites [in fact I think almost exactly like websites]they could be verified by some organisation without revealing the persons identity to the person who does the query. But who will implement this? Flyingroc? :-) Do do we want even more of our real life ID info stored in LL's and the CIA's computers?

Orrrr .. You look at it from a whole different angle:

[b:1pln94vs](B) If you do consider each avatar as autonomous[/b:1pln94vs], then we either need to :

1. Ignore whole of real life and not whine if the CDS gets a nice dicator.

2. Introduce "greater flexibility in managing [...] identities" (quoting the recently lecturing David Orban) Where e.g. the more verified identies could access more 'sensitive' gov't roles.

3. Introduce a different voting system, one that is less susceptible to sock puppet faking (>1 avie per autonomous person). One example that would get us in the right direction is voting power relative to the avie's merit to society (credits: D. Orban again). Although this would probably have drawbacks too, at least it would be harder to fake 2, 5 or even 10 fake avies (controlled by 1 autonomous person) that are indeed active in SL-society. But I doubt this is practical in the CDS: We have many inactive citizens, so it's still non-transparent or unfair (probably said many times before). But Dianne is right in the sense that creative thinking would at least get it more in the right direction, towards a virtual society less susceptible to faking. But we can only go for these solutions if there's a majority willing to accept (B), like B (2) or B (3).

If we don't choose (B), that means we choose (A) and either need to make a 'hard' link to real life ID's, or stay stuck in the same situation.

[color=blue:1pln94vs]Answering the virtual citizenship question is possible [/color:1pln94vs](A or B? Or perhaps even C or D and implement/legislate a version of it),
[color=blue:1pln94vs]we could do it, perhaps even should do it: in a great "What is the mission and goal of our CDS?" referendum.[/color:1pln94vs]
[i:1pln94vs]In my 2,5 months in the CDS I've seen different people arguing that this "mission/goal"-question needs to be answered (like Ashcroft and Michel respectively to the Judiciary which is also very important) It has probably been coined many times before (UZ-gate? :-) )
I'm really in favour of the CDS figuring out it's mission and entrenching that a bit in the constitution, allowing for change only every, say, 18 months.[/i:1pln94vs]

- - - -
Edit: Oh, mistake B-2 is probably more something like A-2, a linking-with-RL thing.

Last edited by Sleazy_Writer on Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Aliasi Stonebender
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Post by Aliasi Stonebender »

[quote="Dianne":20b932zk]
The definition of what a virtual "citizen" is, is somewhat like a giant black mole on the lip of an otherwise beautiful courtesan that all the suitors dutifully pretend they do not see as it would ruin an otherwise enchanting evening.
[/quote:20b932zk]

On the contrary, I always thought it was fairly simple.

The purpose of our government is to administrate a series of Second Life server, also known as simulators.

Therefore, only those who are contributing to the upkeep of those simulators could be properly counted as citizens. I don't see anything harsh or unfair here; this would be a bad standard in real-life, but the very foundation of our system is it is all entirely voluntary - and real-life citizenship often isn't. It doesn't matter what my opinion of the United States is, the Internal Revenue Service expects me to pay taxes regardless. Not so with us!

The problem is not in the definition, but in the enforcement, and the nitpick of "do we count seperate avatars as seperate people, even if they're run by the same mind".

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Sleazy_Writer
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Post by Sleazy_Writer »

[quote="Aliasi Stonebender":3uwwf48k]"do we count seperate avatars as seperate people, even if they're run by the same mind".[/quote:3uwwf48k]
OK, so my post could have been a lot shorter :-) The nits still need to be picked IF we ever want to clarify citizenship.
I don't think it's urgent, but I do consider it important. The rest of the "What is the goal of the CDS and how serious do we take it?" question is important too.

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