PCA: AC Abolition

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Claude Desmoulins
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PCA: AC Abolition

Post by Claude Desmoulins »

Here beginneth the forum referral of the Guild Abolition Amendment:

Not surprisingly the sticking point is about vetoes, independence, and accountability. Several people expressed a desire for an independent veto , but some wondered if the SC is the best place to put it , especially for budget issues.

The RA has always been the people's assembly ( Hmm. I feel another renaming bill... , although it sounds a bit proletarian utopia :) It has authority in the system because it alone is elected by everyone.

The SC is sort of the collected wisdom of CDS. It self selects and was originally the philosophic branch. Then the JA reduced its role to a legal/judicial one in many respects. Now the proposal to give them a budget veto asks them to be budget experts. It is fair to ask the SC to be expert on everything?

In RL governments with an independent veto, that independent veto authority is popularly elected (directly or indirectly) That's not the case here, which is one of the difficulties. OTOH, there's not much support for adding another branch to the CDS government tree.

Many seem to want a counterbalance to the RA (see Ranma's recent post). My question is, how can that counterbalance, if it isn't elected, have enough legitimacy to serve its counterbalancing function.

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Patroklus Murakami
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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

The sticking point here seems to be that of transferring the financial veto power the Guildmaster currently has to the Scientific Council. The relevant section of the proposal is this bit:
[quote:202edtso]Additions:
Article I, Section 6, add:

The Scientific Council may veto a revenue bill or resubmit a modified
revenue bill for vote.[/quote:202edtso]
Claude maintains that this is unnecessary since the Executive Branch (the Chancellor) has the power to veto any bill, including a finance bill, for any reason at all. Hence there is no need for the Guildmaster's financial veto to go anywhere, least of all to the Scientific Council which is after all an unelected body which exists to defend the Constitution and constitutional government. The SC, in this analysis, does not have any expertise in financial matters and so should not wield a financial veto.

There is, however, a problem with leaving the issue of financial oversight solely with the Chancellor (selected by the RA) or a civil service position like the Treasurer (selected by the RA or the Chancellor, I forget which). And that is that the Chancellor, as an RA appointee, does not provide sufficient safeguard against financial impropriety and recklessness. Let's imagine, for the sake of argument, that some future Leader of the RA decides to blow the CDS budget on fireworks for his rez-day celebrations. You would hope that some other part of the constitutional set up would be able to check this kind of excess. Is the Chancellor, who is chosen by the RA, really up to this? Wouldn't the LRA, and their majority party in the RA be able to select a pliant Chancellor who would go along with such reckless spending? Looking at this kind of worst-case scenario indicates to me that the SC would be a better place to transfer the financial veto. The SC is truly independent of the RA, its members having been ratified over a number of terms by different RAs. It's difficult to imagine a reckless LRA being able to pack the SC with pliant stooges in order to pull off the kind of excess I've outlined above.

I agree that finance does not sit well with the SCs usual constitutional remit but I think, because of the nature of the three branches of government, it is a safer place to entrust this veto power.

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Post by Publius Crabgrass »

To sum up the debate: there should be a financial veto. If not with the SC, then where?

* Chancellor is appointed by the RA
* Treasurer is appointed by the RA (or by the Chancellor?)
* The New Guild, if adopted in the proposed Bill, would be statutory, not constitutional
* Judiciary is as dead as Marley's doornail.
* Maybe we need a ceremonial constitutional monarch?

So although I agree that the SC is not particularly democratic, it seems to have more legitimacy than the other possible suspects.

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Post by michelmanen »

No, I don't agree. We should appoint an independent and professional Auditor General who would issue, two weeks from the date the budget is tabled and before the RA votes on it, a non-binding Budget Report. Based on this, the RA can amend the Budget or adopt is without change. No veto of the budget should be given to any other body, elected or unelected, since adopting a budget is inherently the job of the RA. Only citizens at large can "veto" the RA on the budget, based of the Auditor General's Report, and the overall performance of the budget, at election time.

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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

[quote="michelmanen":orkmrmco]No, I don't agree. We should appoint an independent and professional Auditor General who would issue, two weeks from the date the budget is tabled and before the RA votes on it, a non-binding Budget Report. Based on this, the RA can amend the Budget or adopt is without change. No veto of the budget should be given to any other body, elected or unelected, since adopting a budget is inherently the job of the RA. Only citizens at large can "veto" the RA on the budget, based of the Auditor General's Report, and the overall performance of the budget, at election time.[/quote:orkmrmco]I'd be interested to hear more about what this might involve Michel. Especially in the light of Sudane's arguments in this [url=http://forums.neufreistadt.info/viewtop ... 5:orkmrmco]thread[/url:orkmrmco].

If the Auditor General is appointed by the RA each legislative session don't we have the same problem as the Chancellor wielding the veto i.e. that a corrupt RA could install someone who would toe the line? Or did you anticipate making this a permanent appointment? In which case we have another unelected institution of government. Why not simply give the power to one of the other existing institutions, the SC. Michel, I'd be interested to hear what your objections are to this.

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Post by Claude Desmoulins »

Since the Auditor General Michel proposes reports and does not him/herself have decision power over the budget, it might be possible to let the SC appoint him or her. This would maximize the AG's independence both from the RA and the Treasurer (since the two positions would not have the same oversight)

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Auditor?

Post by Justice Soothsayer »

I'm confused about the introduction of an Auditor General with recommending powers over the budget. My understanding of the function of an auditor is that an auditor reviews what has been spent to assure that there has not been any improper use of resources. The RA's budget is a statement of [i:ao8vvqew]intended[/i:ao8vvqew] spending, and is therefore prospective, rather than the auditor's retrospective view of [i:ao8vvqew]past[/i:ao8vvqew] spending.

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Post by michelmanen »

I agree with Claude. Let the SC appoint the Auditor General based on his/her qualifications to do the job. But let the AG remain fully independent from the SC, not part of it, as was proposed.

I think Sudane's arguments are fully in favor od my proposal, not against it. The fact that the AG and Treasurer might work together in a cooperative way so as to minimise any friction and major error is an andvantage in my opinion, not a drawback.

At a first stage, the Treasurer would prepare a draft recommended budget to the RA, on which the AG would informally affer advice. The Treasurer then would finalise the Recommened Budget, having taken none/some/all the AG's comments into consideration. The RA would examine the Recommended Budget and table its own Budget Bill, including none/some/ all of the Treasurer's recommendation. At this point, the AG would issue its budget evaluation of the RA Budget Bill. The RA will chose to modify / not modify its Budget Bill accordingly, and pass it into law. The citizens will support / sanction the budget by their vote at election time.

The AG should be appointed for a long enough period to give the position stability and credibility. I would souggest some time period around the 2 year mark.

I believe the SC should interfere as little as possible in the routine political process of the SC, as long as vision and values of the community are not at stake -or, of course, constitutional issues. I feel particularly strongly on this on the budget issue - a quintessentially political resource-allocation decision whose responsiblity should be shouldered exclusively by the RA in front of the electorate. This will enhance the openness, accuntablity and efficiency of our democracy.

Regarding Desmond's suggestion of fully democratising our budget, I think that having a Treasurer and an AG in no way diminishes the democratic nature of our budget - and in fact, enhances it by keeping the SC out of the process. In the final instance, the RA can do with the budget as it pleases (despite any recommendations from Ttreasurer and AG), subject only to the vote of the electorate at election time. What can be more democractic, accountable, open and efficicient that this?

On a peersonal note, I still have significant issues with Pat's cumulation of functions as both RA and SC member (albeit on leave). I do not question his personal integrity- but from and outside point of view, when an RA member who, upon leaving his RA seat, will again sit in the SC with full voting powers, argues in favor of significantly enhancing the powers of the SC - it looks as a significant conflict of interests. And that is certainly not good for our democracy. It is exactly what happened with the Judiciary - let's not go down that road again with the Treasurry....

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Patroklus Murakami
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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Given that the sticking point appears to be the transfer of the financial veto (currently wielded by the Guildmaster) to the Scientific Council, I'll withdraw that part of the proposal.

Claude has pointed out that the Article numbers need to be updated (this was drafted before the Executive Branch was made permanent) so I've tidied that up as well so the RA can be clear what it is voting on.

[quote:119fs9w4][b:119fs9w4]Proposed Amendment Removing the Artisanal Branch [/b:119fs9w4]

[b:119fs9w4]Preamble[/b:119fs9w4]

With the establishment of the executive branch, the governmental role of the Artisanal Branch (Guild) is no longer needed or appropriate.

This amendment abolishes the Artisanal Branch as an institution of CDS government and removes all references to the Artisanal branch from the constitution.

Article I:
From section 6, remove:

The Artisanal branch may veto a revenue bill or resubmit a modified
revenue bill for vote.

From section 7, remove:

In regards to the Artisanal branch:
The RA sets taxation rate and the city budget.
The RA can seek impeachment of members of the Artisanal branch for
failing to support the city fiscally.
The leader of the RA sits as the leader of the Artisanal branch if the
Artisanal branch seeks to impeach a member of the Philosophic branch.
The RA can override an Artisanal veto with a 2/3 vote

The leader of the RA sits as the leader of the Philosophic branch if
the Philosophic branch seeks to impeach a member of the Artisanal
branch.

Article III: The Artisanal Branch is removed in its entirety.

Article IV:
Section 8, remove:

The SC can seek impeachment of members of the Artisanal branch for
violating the constitution or acting illegally.

Article VI:
From section 1, remove mention of the Artisanal branch.

From section 2, remove:
Members of the Representative Assembly and the Scientific Council may
be members of the Artisanal Collective but may not vote nor hold
elected positions in the Artisanal branch.[/quote:119fs9w4]

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