Regional Planning Commission Meeting Sat 17 Feb - Transcript

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Patroklus Murakami
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Regional Planning Commission Meeting Sat 17 Feb - Transcript

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Following on from discussion at the RA and the passage of the Regional Planning Commission Act last term I'd like to call a meeting of interested parties for:

Saturday 17 Feb at 4am (the old RA meeting time) in
The Praetorium, Colonia Nova

[quote:jd2io099]Pursuant to the procedures set forth in NL 5-21, This Act establishes a regional planning commission.

The Commission is charged with creating a draft of a muti-sim expansion plan, consisting of a topographic map, water plan, and road map.

Moon Adamant shall be the initial chair of the commission

The commission shall present a draft plan to the RA by February 28, 2007. [/quote:jd2io099]The meeting is open to all CDS citizens and there will be one item on the agenda: What is the best way to take forward this work?

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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

The Regional Planning Commission met yesterday in the Praetorium, Colonia Nova. The following issues were discussed:

[list:2xmety5c]1. Size of the region we are planning. We discussed plans which would involve an Estate of 16 sims in size.
2. The use of void sims as buffers between 'fully inhabited' city sims like Neufreistadt and Colonia Nova and to provide green space and wilderness.
3. The balance between void sims and city sims.
4. Offering single properties in void sims to help pay for them and provide 'wilderness' properties.
5. The need to relocate the whole of the CDS Estate as the plan develops to avoid being 'hemmed in' by other nearby private islands. We agreed we did not need to start reserving spaces on the Land Map yet but that we would need to start doing this once we have relocated.
6. The need to take into account the features of NFS and CN in planning our expansion (the height of NFS is the main constraint, you need at least two sims to the East if you want to reach the shoreline without lots of uneconomical land).
7. 'Clustering' versus 'continuous territory', i.e. should we plan to have a number of city sims (like NFS and CN) surrounded by buffer zones or a continuous territory where the whole of the Estate looks like it's been planned from the start?
8. Are we going for territorial or population expansion or both?[/list:u:2xmety5c]

Moon, Jon, Sudane and Ulysse agreed to work up the discussion into a fuller plan and report back to a second Regional Planning Commission meeting on [b:2xmety5c]Tuesday 27 Feb[/b:2xmety5c] at [b:2xmety5c]3pm[/b:2xmety5c] in the [b:2xmety5c]Praetorium, Colonia Nova.[/b:2xmety5c]

The transcript of the meeting follows.

Last edited by Patroklus Murakami on Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Transcript 1/3

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Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1
Region: Colonia Nova (246528, 250112)
Local-Position: (14, 166, 41)

Meeting on 2007-02-17
Those present:
Patroklus Murakami is in the chair.
Moon Adamant has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: please touch the recorder to indicate consent to be recorded
Moon Adamant: done :)
Sudane Erato has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: i declare this first session of the Regional Planning Commission to have begun
Sudane Erato: yes
Sudane Erato: :)
Patroklus Murakami: now, i need moon to tell me what we're going to do :)
Moon Adamant: lol
Moon Adamant: well hmmm
Moon Adamant: first of all, i think
Moon Adamant: we should discuss a few things
Moon Adamant: such as:
Moon Adamant: territory size
Moon Adamant: that is - how large shall we make the plan
Moon Adamant: considering also current and foreseen rate of expansion
Patroklus Murakami: (btw this will be posted on the forums and possibly the wiki so others can take part who are not here today)
Moon Adamant nods
Moon Adamant: so - this is the first thing
Moon Adamant: by setting a size to territory, we are also committing the creation of another future commission, that will gather when this plan is exhausted
Patroklus Murakami: well, there are a couple of points there
Moon Adamant: let me try and look for some info
Patroklus Murakami: we can start small to begin with (and island of six sims say) and then design another, larger continent when we have filled our first 'region'
Patroklus Murakami: *an
Sudane Erato: I would say that "small" means perhaps 16 sims
Sudane Erato: or maybe 24
Patroklus Murakami: wow!
Moon Adamant: yes, i would agree more with Sudane - and would put the lower limit at 9 sims
Patroklus Murakami: is that because of teh need for coastline, void spaces etc?
Sudane Erato: yes, remember... one void sim order is 4 sims
Sudane Erato: and voids are increasingly important, i feel
Moon Adamant: yes
Sudane Erato: as a planning and control device
Moon Adamant: we will need them as buffers
Patroklus Murakami: yes, it would be lovely to have green space between our cities
Sudane Erato: yes
Moon Adamant: sort of protected landscape areas
Patroklus Murakami: and/or sandboxes?
Sudane Erato: and really. more than lovely... essential tpo maintain a character
Sudane Erato: hmmm
Sudane Erato: voids have VERY few prims
Sudane Erato: only 7500 for all 4
Patroklus Murakami: true, they don't make great sandboxes, just thinking aloud!
Sudane Erato: :).... thats what we have to do
Sudane Erato: there's so much vagueness in the LL procedures re land
Patroklus Murakami: hi ulysse
Sudane Erato: hi Ulysse
Ulysse Alexandre: hi everybody
Patroklus Murakami: welcome to the Regional Plannning Commission
Ulysse Alexandre: thank you
Patroklus Murakami: are u a CDS citizen? i'm not sure we've met before
Sudane Erato: ahhh... Moon... good idea :)
Sudane Erato: yes
Sudane Erato: Ulysse has just joined us
Sudane Erato: with land here in CN
Patroklus Murakami: great!
Ulysse Alexandre: no it is the first time
Moon Adamant: hi Ulysse, welcome :)
Moon Adamant: as for voids
Patroklus Murakami: we're discussing the kind of regional plan we will need as we expand. feel free to join in the discussion :)
Moon Adamant: i see them as providing green buffers mainly
Sudane Erato: yes
Patroklus Murakami listens to moon
Sudane Erato: i will suggest that we actually sell them, with restrictions
Moon Adamant: also eventually an installation of some kind of public space that is low prim
Sudane Erato: yes
Sudane Erato: perhaps one person/citizen per void
Sudane Erato: hi arris :)
Moon Adamant: hi Arria :)
Arria Perreault: hello
Arria Perreault: :)
Patroklus Murakami: hi arria, welcome to the Regional Plannning Commission. feel free to join in the discussion. pls touch the recorder to indicate consent to being recorded tho
Ulysse Alexandre: hello Arria
Arria Perreault: Hello
Arria Perreault: ok
Moon Adamant: how many sims did you suggest Sudane?
Moon Adamant: 16?
Moon Adamant: we need also to study
Moon Adamant: the proportion between void and inhabited sims
Sudane Erato: yes... 16
Moon Adamant: that will deamnd some reckoning :D
Patroklus Murakami: yes, the idea of having one home per void sim as a kind of 'luxury pad' with a higher rent would helpto pay for them. it will need discussion though, it's potentially controversial
Sudane Erato: yes, true
Sudane Erato: but it will help the finances... and it will not be especially "luxury"
Moon Adamant: no... performance in void sims is noticeably slower
Sudane Erato: since it will be restricted re prims and re usage
Sudane Erato: yes
Sudane Erato: akin to life in a remote cabin :)
Moon Adamant: i would see them more like holding chartered orgs than private spaces, to tell you the truth
Patroklus Murakami: yes, i was just flagging it for further discussion. as a socialist i 'ought' to dislike the idea but actually i think it makes a lot of sense!
Patroklus Murakami is getting conservative in his old age :)
Moon Adamant: lol
Sudane Erato: hehe
Moon Adamant: ok guys
Moon Adamant: to bring us to track
Moon Adamant: we must decide the span of the plan as regards this
Sudane Erato: well, i'd vote for 16
Sudane Erato: it will be understood as reasonable
Patroklus Murakami: i'd be happy with that too
Moon Adamant: i think that this commission needs to make some finantial calcuclus to get the better proportion of voids/normal sims
Sudane Erato: ahhh
Moon Adamant: but how many voidsin it - 4?
Sudane Erato: yes
Sudane Erato: so, 8 voids and 8 sims
Moon Adamant: hm?
Sudane Erato: would be a plavce to start
Patroklus Murakami: sounds like a reasonable balance to me
Moon Adamant: or 12 sims and 4 voids?
Sudane Erato: yes
Sudane Erato: but thats a high proportion
Sudane Erato: we get to the concept
Patroklus Murakami: i think we'd need to some financial projections to assess both options
Sudane Erato: if the feeling is that we should have themed areas
Sudane Erato: sperated by voids
Sudane Erato: then you will want more voids
Moon Adamant: one thing that is also in teh scope of the plan, btw
Patroklus Murakami: if we have more void sims then we might need to pay more rent per regular sim lot to pay for them
Michel Manen: hello all sorry to be late
Moon Adamant: hi Michel .)
Sudane Erato: hi Michel!
Patroklus Murakami: hi michel. welcome to the Regional Planning Commission
Michel Manen: thank you Pat
Patroklus Murakami: pls touch the recorder etc
Moon Adamant: is that you can provide the sims already with a percentage of green covered area
Michel Manen has indicated consent to be recorded.
Sudane Erato: yes
Moon Adamant: and say, for instance, that sim D will have 10% green coverage, etc
Sudane Erato: but... perhaps the discussion is regarding themes
Sudane Erato: and how they should be separated
Sudane Erato: the percentage issue, as you suggest
Sudane Erato: we could look at the existing 2 sims
Sudane Erato: and see what' was done there
Moon Adamant: well, then the themes proposed could pick sims as more adapted
Sudane Erato: yes
Moon Adamant: imagine that you have a theme for star wars - doesn't make sense that it is placed on sim E, who has perhaps 30% of green coverage - but on sim F, who only has 5%
Moon Adamant: which*
Patroklus Murakami: it seems to me that the overall plan will need to specify how many 'city' sims we have, what separates them and the basic intersim infrastructure
Sudane Erato: well, thats why the thought about themes separated by voids
Moon Adamant: but i want also to consider
Sudane Erato: that way each could develop with its own requirements
Moon Adamant: what can be done in the sim between CN and NFS
Patroklus Murakami: but moon raises an interesting point about how much the themes themselves will affect where we want to locate them
Sudane Erato: yes!
Moon Adamant: since we do have two pre-existences there
Moon Adamant: and we can link the two with a non-void, since CN has been prepared to link
Moon Adamant: by having a non-theme zone in the southern border - and a major route linking there
Michel Manen: If i may make a comment on this, perhaps it would give us a basis of comparison
Moon Adamant listens
Michel Manen: I spent part of yesterday morning wiht desmond shang
Michel Manen: very interesting experience
Michel Manen: one thing that impressed me
Michel Manen: was a huge 20 by 10 sims map
Sudane Erato: :)
Michel Manen: showing the entire area of Caledon
Michel Manen: and su\ourrounding enviroments
Michel Manen: showing all roads and relief
Michel Manen: as well as
Michel Manen: the 15 possible locations of future sims
Patroklus Murakami: hi veronica
Moon Adamant: hello veronica
Veronica2vixen Devoix: hi
Michel Manen: so i was thinking very practically
Veronica2vixen Devoix: am i intruding
Michel Manen: looking at our own location onthe map
Michel Manen: do we know exactly
Michel Manen: what places on the map
Michel Manen: we might use
Michel Manen: for our expanson porjects?
Veronica2vixen Devoix: wow
Michel Manen: maybe we could star from there
Sudane Erato: that goes to another issue...
Sudane Erato: the reservation of areas
Sudane Erato: and the Land Store
Michel Manen: the two are interlinked thogh no?
Sudane Erato: yes
Sudane Erato: but... conceptually
Michel Manen: it will make a difference
Michel Manen: if we want to expland
Sudane Erato: i would start with Moon's approach
Michel Manen: in the sim betwen NFS and CN
Sudane Erato: and then find the place for it
Veronica2vixen Devoix: ok i will just be hwew quietly then
Moon Adamant: the thing is Michel
Moon Adamant: atm, we don't have room to expand even to a lower 9 sims limit at present location
Moon Adamant: but taht isn't an issue
Sudane Erato: right
Moon Adamant: with SL's hypercubic geography
Veronica2vixen Devoix has indicated consent to be recorded.
Moon Adamant: we can relocate our continent
Moon Adamant: when we need
Sudane Erato: yes
Patroklus Murakami: yes
Sudane Erato: that would be my approach
Patroklus Murakami: when i looked into the costs of reserving squares on the map v. simply paying to move our sims to a new, uncluttered region it came out cheaper to move en bloc
Moon Adamant: yes
Sudane Erato: yes!
Sudane Erato: although once we make that move we WILL have to start reserving areas
Michel Manen: :)
Moon Adamant: also, with a few more sims - it will be more feasible for our finances to support a reservation of the missing gaps
Patroklus Murakami: it depends on the overall plan and how quickly you intend to expand but it may still be cheaper to do that once we have moved and know what our expansion plan is
Sudane Erato: yes
Sudane Erato: and yes, i agree Pat
Veronica2vixen Devoix: i was suerchin yesterday how can i buy land here in your websight
Moon Adamant: ok, guys, on the wall - 15 sims
Sudane Erato: hehe
Sudane Erato: Veronica, I'll talk to you later about that
Michel Manen: ah
Veronica2vixen Devoix: thx that would be great
Moon Adamant: (ignore the torch) :))
Michel Manen: smiles
Patroklus Murakami looks
Moon Adamant: marked in red
Moon Adamant: the sim we need to look very closely at
Moon Adamant: and - my feeling on this
Veronica2vixen Devoix: well im leaving byby im just here to tell you guys I LOVE THIS PLACE
Moon Adamant: i am going to mark blue some sims which i think are very important too
Sudane Erato: kk
Moon Adamant: thanks Veronica :))
Veronica2vixen Devoix: byby
Michel Manen: byw Veronica
Patroklus Murakami: ty veronica. we love it too ! hoepe to see u again
Veronica2vixen Devoix: i really love it ao much
Veronica2vixen Devoix: i hope you get more vendors
Veronica2vixen Devoix: to sell cool stuff
Sudane Erato: yes Moon... all the white ones
Veronica2vixen Devoix: byby everyone thank you for the privilage for me to be here
Moon Adamant: yes... east of NFS is not so important, as well as North of CN
Patroklus Murakami: bye :)
Moon Adamant: so i would say that blues will need to be on regional plan
Sudane Erato: well, you have East of NFS marked
Moon Adamant: and greys and whites (difference only so we see them individually)
Moon Adamant: sorry, west!
Sudane Erato: ahhh
Moon Adamant: can be moved around as willed
Sudane Erato: why are they not important?
Patroklus Murakami: yes, i don't follow that either
Moon Adamant: because i can close west of NFS with a void, say
Moon Adamant: or with a normal
Sudane Erato: hmmm
Sudane Erato: thats could be said for all of them
Moon Adamant: but i think we need to look closely at several points
Moon Adamant: the NFS hill
Sudane Erato: i have strong feelings that red should be a void
Patroklus Murakami: why are the blue ones so important? could you explain further moon?
Moon Adamant: well hmmm
Moon Adamant: in the first place, i don't think that all our territory should be different themed sims separated by voids in a strict manner
Sudane Erato: ok

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Transcript 2/3

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Moon Adamant: i think we can grow urban centres
Sudane Erato: ahhh
Moon Adamant: and do surroundings to urban centres
Michel Manen: moon what would be the geograhical shape of a sim located on the red spot?
Michel Manen: sorry i this was discussedbefore
Moon Adamant: CN, for instance, is prepared so it can become easily a 4-sim city
Moon Adamant: well, red spot needs to be a slope
Sudane Erato: yes
Moon Adamant: you can see in that great pic by sudane how high NFS stands above CN
Moon Adamant: and that will bring us to another discussion: what kind of territory are we planning
Moon Adamant: but just let me finsih on blue sims
Sudane Erato: ok
Michel Manen: ok
Moon Adamant: ad this is my opinion solely
Sudane Erato: :)
Moon Adamant: as those next to CN - they are, specially East - natural following of the great Cardo axis
Sudane Erato: yes
Michel Manen: i see
Ulysse Alexandre: me too
Moon Adamant: specially East, as said - the West one has a boundary - BUT if we ever want to expand CN as urban centre, it is the logical choice
Moon Adamant: as regards NFS
Michel Manen: so the function is the ability to connect by roads
Patroklus Murakami: aah, ok. i see
Sudane Erato: is the N/S axis on CN less important?
Moon Adamant: whatever is built East of NFS
Moon Adamant: so Sudane - but there i have the red sim below, which i already know we have to look closely at
Sudane Erato: i see
Sudane Erato: ok
Moon Adamant: but whatever is built East of NFS has to contemplate the slope and the existance of walls and castle hill
Michel Manen: i have a question: for the next sim, is our purpose population growth of geographic coherence?
Sudane Erato: hmmm
Moon Adamant: same way - if we ever plan to expand NFS as a city centre - that one is the logical choice
Sudane Erato: well, that one and the red one
Moon Adamant: maybe i should paint the others on light blue :D
Patroklus Murakami: NFS could expand to the east as more valley land... down to a shore
Sudane Erato: hehe
Patroklus Murakami: michel, i donn't think that has been decided yet. the RA will need to set out terms when it annnounces a further sim competition
Moon Adamant: indeed
Moon Adamant: south of NFS implies also that some kind of connection be made there
Moon Adamant: unless it is a void with a road following roughly then E-W
Moon Adamant: ok hmm
Moon Adamant: comments?
Patroklus Murakami: there will need to some plans for basic infrastucuture in a regional plan - roads, river, coastline
Moon Adamant: yes
Moon Adamant: that is dependent on teh discussion of what kind of territory do we want, and which i would like to launch next
Patroklus Murakami: and perhaps an indication of which sims are to be void/ fully inhabited and how the blue and red sims (which have particular considerations) are to be handled
Patroklus Murakami: or *could* be handled
Sudane Erato: also... there seems a huge significance between the 2 styles of the existing sims...
Sudane Erato: CN with a rectilinear layout
Sudane Erato: and NFS with an extremely organic one
Michel Manen: moon just for comparison
Michel Manen: can you put tat up?
Moon Adamant: yes... those differences can be smoothed over in the buffers
Moon Adamant: sure
Patroklus Murakami: brb
Sudane Erato: oh my!
Moon Adamant: well... that's not really a plan... just the reserved sims
Michel Manen: indeed
Michel Manen: well
Sudane Erato: with his IBM connection :)
Michel Manen: if youlook close
Michel Manen: you wll see
Michel Manen: all roads
Michel Manen: costlines
Michel Manen: denivellations
Moon Adamant: yes - that's because it is done from the mapview
Moon Adamant: but nothing tells us how the tartan sims will be doen and connected
Michel Manen: but we can see how th existing 15 work together
Moon Adamant: for instance, i see immediately connection problems both north and south - assuming that all land is private.
Moon Adamant: if public, they can connect
Sudane Erato: well, most of the existing north edge is coastline
Moon Adamant: yes
Sudane Erato: some of the south
Moon Adamant: they could always launch bridges
Sudane Erato: yes
Moon Adamant: though it would look a bit like a certain continet we both know Sudane
Sudane Erato: hehe
Moon Adamant: some months ago .)
Moon Adamant: looking a bit like a hedgehog :D
Moon Adamant: anyway
Sudane Erato: :)
Moon Adamant: this is important also
Patroklus Murakami: how shall we take all of this forward so we have something to report back to the RA?
Michel Manen: wewll my point was, if we do a regional plan, should we not try to develop a sort of a map on which we could situate our existing and posible future sims?
Moon Adamant: because we need to discuss what kind of continent do we want - and what kind of boundaries and buffers
Michel Manen: exactly
Sudane Erato: yes
Moon Adamant: Michel - but that's what we are doing :)
Moon Adamant: i think not only we need to discuss voids as boundaries... but also rivers and coast lines as such
Sudane Erato: yes
Patroklus Murakami: we could put our plan on the SL map has Desmond has done Michel, but we will have to move before we implement it. there's no space to realise this at present
Michel Manen: exactly
Sudane Erato: thats ok Pat
Sudane Erato: i think thats reasonable
Moon Adamant: so, seeing that - we are free to create a continet with the shape we want
Sudane Erato: yes
Patroklus Murakami: yes, i agree with moon on that
Michel Manen: thats fine; i understand that; we should still work on that assumption and develop such a map, i think
Moon Adamant: and that is why i am already moving sims aside
Sudane Erato: :)
Moon Adamant: but we need to think
Moon Adamant: do we want a continuous territory that never has a break wider than CN's river, say?
Moon Adamant: or do we want clusters - that can be surrounded by voids (be they land, water or both)?
Michel Manen: in my opinion this is what the commision should give the RA: choices. If you want population growth, choices A,B,C; if you want regional coherehnce, choices D, or E, and this is what hte entire region might look like
Moon Adamant: you notice that i don't mean a physical gap like what exists presently between Cn and NFS
Sudane Erato: so... multiple choices
Michel Manen: and the RA could use that as a basis for its own deliberations
Sudane Erato: yes
Moon Adamant: hm, that is not our strict mandate from the RA
Patroklus Murakami: do u have the terms of teh commission to hand moon?
Moon Adamant: hm, no
Michel Manen: well its a cooperative approach the Ra would deliberate, make some prelimary choices and sent the whole project back here
Michel Manen: and so on
Moon Adamant: i would have to browse through forums to look at them
Patroklus Murakami: let's both try. i'm on an underpowered laptop tho :)
Moon Adamant: anyway, we can make that study
Patroklus Murakami: "Pursuant to the procedures set forth in NL 5-21, This Act establishes a regional planning commission. The Commission is charged with creating a draft of a muti-sim expansion plan, consisting of a topographic map, water plan, and road map. Moon Adamant shall be the initial chair of the commission The commission shall present a draft plan to the RA by February 28, 2007. "
Moon Adamant: drat
Patroklus Murakami: NL5-22
Moon Adamant: how did you find it so fast? .D
Sudane Erato: hehe
Sudane Erato: competitive spirit :)
Moon Adamant: i only found a two paragraphs-minute of that RA
Patroklus Murakami: i know where to look :) and my old ibook g4 is not doing too badly today
Patroklus Murakami: a plan can have options though, so we can accomodate michel i think
Moon Adamant: ok
Moon Adamant: yes, of course
Moon Adamant: though till the 28th... i am not sure if we can discuss all that
Moon Adamant: geographic AND population
Sudane Erato: yes, only 10 days
Patroklus Murakami: during which I'm on vacation....
Sudane Erato: :)
Michel Manen: well for example, expaning along CARDO would probably imply population growthl on the red square, geographic coherence :)
Patroklus Murakami: how much more would need to be done to turn this into a proposal the RA could usefully discuss?
Moon Adamant: decumanum
Moon Adamant: well, we need to discuss the cluster vs continuity question
Moon Adamant: this is important because
Moon Adamant: imagine that you want clusters
Moon Adamant: so east of NFS you may have to have two sims
Moon Adamant: so you can go down to water level
Moon Adamant: (recall that max elevation of NFS is on the east)
Sudane Erato: yes
Patroklus Murakami: hmm, yes
Sudane Erato: I think that the contuity approach would require a much higher level of planning
Sudane Erato: perhaps beyond the capacity of this community
Sudane Erato: while the cluster approach
Moon Adamant: the second sim could be a void... part of it already the shoreline - and have the bridge, so a third sim could enter the slot immediately
Sudane Erato: would be more organic in its development
Sudane Erato: the existing areas most tightly plkanned
Moon Adamant: it may have advantages for the themed sims
Sudane Erato: and the further ones less so
Sudane Erato: yes
Michel Manen: sorry can you please explain again the diffrence between cluster and continuity? im not sure i understand
Moon Adamant: though, mind - it may imply that a sim planning concerns itself with more than just one sim
Patroklus Murakami: i\m not entirely sure i understand the distinction. the key thing though is that the plan is flexible enough to cope with changing plans and priorities

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Transcript 3/3

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Moon Adamant: if you look at caledon map
Michel Manen: yes
Moon Adamant: you can see sims that have continuity
Michel Manen: yes
Sudane Erato: yes
Patroklus Murakami: the ppl who end up implementing the last sims on the map may not yet even be in the CDS yet :)
Moon Adamant: but for instance, all the northern row has a cluster character
Sudane Erato: yes, varies from sim to sim
Moon Adamant: it ends on a shoreline... no connections left to anything further north
Michel Manen: yes
Moon Adamant: the sim with the round road
Moon Adamant: has continuity on the east and west
Sudane Erato: yes
Michel Manen: victoria city their main city
Moon Adamant: but the one on the north was a bit hammered in
Sudane Erato: N and S too
Sudane Erato: i see
Moon Adamant: you can notice that
Michel Manen: yes isee
Patroklus Murakami: hmm ok, i think i see
Jon Seattle: Sorry.. everyone overslept :(
Patroklus Murakami: hi jon
Sudane Erato: :)
Moon Adamant: because you see that the northern shoreline is suspiciously linear .)
Moon Adamant: hi Jon :))
Moon Adamant hugs Jon
Michel Manen: yes it is
Jon Seattle hugs Moon
Jon Seattle: Hi everyone
Sudane Erato: hi Jon :)
Michel Manen: hi jon
Moon Adamant: so
Ulysse Alexandre: hi jon
Jon Seattle: Hi Pat, Sudane. Michel, Ulysse
Moon Adamant: what we must look after is that if we have clusters
Moon Adamant: to always provide connection and hmm geographical coherence between them
Sudane Erato: yes
Michel Manen: absolutely
Moon Adamant: thus the blues and red
Patroklus Murakami: so we don't end up looking like caledon? :)
Moon Adamant: they are essential for that too
Moon Adamant: lol
Sudane Erato: heaven forbid! :)
Moon Adamant: you know... i nevre could catch their train? .D
Sudane Erato: hehe
Moon Adamant: ok
Michel Manen: i know this sounds silly, but I bought a horse, and rode Caledon rom east to west - its really an amazing feeling to cross ten simss like that..... we should plan with that in mind maybe
Moon Adamant: let me give you my personal pinion once again
Patroklus Murakami: that sounds like fun michel, i agree with planning in that kind of experience
Moon Adamant: i feel that CN and NFS are geographically linked
Michel Manen: our advantage would be
Michel Manen: that we could pass difentccites and cultures
Moon Adamant: so they would become a sort of large cluster on their own
Moon Adamant: BUT
Moon Adamant: we must plan so in all sides, we may reach water level
Michel Manen: yes
Moon Adamant: the issue here
Sudane Erato: yes
Patroklus Murakami: i agree
Moon Adamant: is again NFS
Moon Adamant: which was planned without taking it into mind
Jon Seattle: what is NFS's base height?
Sudane Erato: about 150
Jon Seattle: oh my!
Moon Adamant: oh, it's somewhere around the hmmm 130
Moon Adamant: yes
Sudane Erato: but it varies hugely
Moon Adamant: yup
Moon Adamant: castle hill is on the 200s
Michel Manen: smiles
Sudane Erato: you can see in the pix
Patroklus Murakami: that's only a problem if we want habitable land E of NFS. we could go higher to the E and build a waterfall void sim
Sudane Erato: the beige square is a 0
Jon Seattle: I suspect that a variation of about 50m is common for sims with mountains and sea.
Moon Adamant: i remember that when i did a basic survey of it
Moon Adamant: yes
Moon Adamant: but one thing we do know
Moon Adamant: from CN experience
Patroklus Murakami: oh, so 150 would be too much?
Moon Adamant: we need two sims around NFS to reach water height
Jon Seattle: lol. 150 is more than half the sim's width
Sudane Erato: yes
Moon Adamant: yes
Sudane Erato: i agree Moon
Moon Adamant: which gives an awful inclination - if you went along in just one sim
Ulysse Alexandre: And you don't thing about cliff
Ulysse Alexandre: like Dover
Michel Manen: yes
Sudane Erato: :)
Moon Adamant: we can have cliffs Ulysse
Patroklus Murakami: don't the sims to the NE and SE of NFS sufer from the same problem?
Moon Adamant: but
Sudane Erato: you could have SOME cliffs
Moon Adamant: you can't, firt of all, have a very tall diference between the ground poligons
Patroklus Murakami: (well. maybe not SE...)
Michel Manen: but the red sim moon, what would be its ideal topography in your opinion?
Sudane Erato: yes...
Moon Adamant: that is, the terrain isn't infinetely elastic
Sudane Erato: and the bottom of a cliff is economically undesireable
Moon Adamant: in my opinion, red sim must slope down from valley and two hills in nfs to join CN height
Ulysse Alexandre: but you gain prims
Moon Adamant: indeed Sudane
Sudane Erato: yes
Michel Manen: so an entirely land sim?
Sudane Erato: the red one, yes
Michel Manen: ok
Sudane Erato: i would say
Michel Manen: thats good to know
Moon Adamant: it needs to accomodate the CN river
Sudane Erato: oh!
Moon Adamant: see that it bends into red sim
Sudane Erato: at the NE corner
Sudane Erato: yes
Moon Adamant: so it may be just a bit - but that river needs continuity also
Moon Adamant: now
Sudane Erato: yes
Moon Adamant: my proposal
Ulysse Alexandre: or you maybe trasform it in a fjord
Moon Adamant: let's look at this one carefully for the 28th
Jon Seattle: I have a technical question. What happens if you have a land sim but set the water level higher and form an interiour lake? That way you get some Linden water.
Moon Adamant: you can do that, of coure
Sudane Erato: yes, that would work
Jon Seattle: So an alpine lake may be possible.
Sudane Erato: yes
Moon Adamant: and we can do it also at some landlocked sims
Sudane Erato: so long as it does not connect to the infinite sea
Moon Adamant: yup
Patroklus Murakami: hi chicago
Sudane Erato: hi Chicago! :)
Moon Adamant: hi Chicago :)
Jon Seattle: Hi Chicago
Michel Manen: hi
Chicago Kipling: Greetings all
Ulysse Alexandre: hi
Moon Adamant: regional ,master plan commision
Sudane Erato: actually, technically speaking,,
Sudane Erato: its the Estate master plan
Moon Adamant: let me try and do something too
Patroklus Murakami: how is everybody fixed for time? i need to get going in about half an hour. should we aim to finish by half past?
Sudane Erato: a region is one sim
Jon Seattle: What happens if you have a sim that is high altitude but adjancent to the sea (like NSF). Will thre be any visual indication of a higher water level?
Sudane Erato: Jon. it looks terrible
Sudane Erato: i can explain later
Jon Seattle: Okay :)
Sudane Erato: ahh... thumbtacks :)
Moon Adamant: trying to mark elevations roughly
Moon Adamant: each level more or less 30 m
Moon Adamant: need a few more for NFS :D
Sudane Erato: yes... hehe... a few
Sudane Erato: Moon, for 3D, the map should really be flat
Sudane Erato: i mean
Sudane Erato: on the ground
Moon Adamant: hm?
Sudane Erato: horizontal instaed of vertical
Moon Adamant: sorry
Moon Adamant: i don't understand .(
Moon Adamant: ah
Jon Seattle: Ah, better to put the map on the floor
Moon Adamant: you want me to place it on the ground isntead?
Michel Manen: its easier to seee height if you put the map on the floor?
Jon Seattle: :)
Patroklus Murakami: yes
Sudane Erato: its hard to see the impact of elevation when it is represented perpendicular to reality
Moon Adamant: yes
Moon Adamant: sorry, i am just so used to cam in weird angles around everything i forgot
Patroklus Murakami: yes, that's better
Moon Adamant: mind you - this is not a true scale map
Moon Adamant: since vertical and horizontal proportions aren't the same
Moon Adamant: ok... extremely roughly
Sudane Erato: yes
Moon Adamant: you see the ammount of slope we have to CN
Moon Adamant: and on the other directiosn as well
Patroklus Murakami: ok, so this shows us that we need two sims to the E of NFS to reach the shore. what about NE of NFS? that looks like it would be pretty steep too unless we have two sims to the E of the red one
Moon Adamant: well hmmm
Ulysse Alexandre: If you connect NFS to CN it is like a street of San Fransisco
Patroklus Murakami: hehe, i like it ulysse :)
Moon Adamant: btw, purple prim is platz level
Michel Manen: ot like a slope in coastal spain
Michel Manen: goiong from the mouuntains of the interior to the coastline
Michel Manen: or even Vancouver. .smiles
Moon Adamant: what we must recall is
Moon Adamant: higly sloped terrain can become unsaleable
Moon Adamant: or even terribly difficult to use even if public land
Moon Adamant: consider the prim lots terrain in NFS
Jon Seattle: Yes, and also takes up space in a way that will make a sim appear smaller.
Patroklus Murakami: would the slope be steeper than on the NFS valley slope?
Moon Adamant: we can of course create that terrain - but we must be careful, because we may be conditioning future sim proposals
Moon Adamant: let me see if i can remind my reckoning
Moon Adamant: i did calculate the median slope for the red sim once
Ulysse Alexandre: Between CN and NFS it is like the real position between a medieval city on a hill and a roman town in the plain...
Moon Adamant: considering a straight road connecting valley and decumanum
Moon Adamant: so we would have 60m/256m
Moon Adamant: roughly
Moon Adamant: which is 23% - a bit more inclined than a roof here
TOPGenosse Brouwer: good morning everyone
Patroklus Murakami: hi TOP
Chicago Kipling: Hello Top
Ulysse Alexandre: hi
Moon Adamant: but that's median between the lowest point in NFS and decumanum inclusion
Patroklus Murakami: Regional Planning Commission, feel free to join us
Moon Adamant: hi Top :)
Chicago Kipling: Could we instead soften the edge of the two sims with a bluff or cliff and a path that went from the castle highlands to the lowlands?
Moon Adamant: hm
Ulysse Alexandre: But the Cardo of CN is about 50
Chicago Kipling: That might leave most of the new sim saleable
Jon Seattle: So the alternative is two sims as 12%, if only half the land is sloped, 23% for that half?
Moon Adamant: oh, i am not worried by red sim
Moon Adamant: and chicago - tricky to suggest altering topography in terrains that are private
Patroklus Murakami: i'm going to have to depart soon. lunch is on its way and i'll get *very* dirty looks from the chef if i remain online :)
Moon Adamant: yes, i can't be here much longer either
Patroklus Murakami: how shall we bring the discussion to a conclusion?
Moon Adamant: well, we can draft several conclusions already
Moon Adamant: namely
Patroklus Murakami: given that we are charged with presenting a draft plan to the RA by 28 Feb?
Moon Adamant: that you do need to have two sims always brodering NFS to reach waterlevel
Patroklus Murakami listens to moon
Moon Adamant: that water level should be considered the new standard - as soon as we can dissolve the NFS pre-existence
Moon Adamant: there, let me mark the other sims
Jon Seattle: It seems to me that that is a constraint. Given that constraint, what do we want the eventual continent to look like? We could make NFS geographically central or deal with it by placing it on an edge.
Moon Adamant: that's teh cluster discussion
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Could someone pls quickly explain blue/light blue / green to me?
Moon Adamant: 14 sims atm
Michel Manen: yes
Moon Adamant: well, these are just functional colours
Jon Seattle: One way to think about it is to choose a point in the future, say, when CDS is eight sims and four voids and see what can be done with that.
TOPGenosse Brouwer: so not the order in which way to expand.
Moon Adamant: and the colours only refer to my opinion on what sims are specially important
Patroklus Murakami: well, to summarise. we've had a good discussion about the issues involved in expansion
Michel Manen: indeed
Moon Adamant: and this is only geographical expansion ;)
Patroklus Murakami: we've considered some of the issues involved in extending our current territory, the elevation of NFS being one of them
Sudane Erato: yes!
Moon Adamant: the elevation of NFS is the major constrain atm
Patroklus Murakami: we've talked about the need for void sims and for balance between void and fully inhabited sims
Michel Manen: and the fact that this commission should present the RA with verious choices based on diffrent variables
Moon Adamant: one thing i can try to do is
TOPGenosse Brouwer nods -- hm hm -- counting on quite some support for void sims?
Patroklus Murakami: we've discussed the constraints placed on us by the sims in existence around us, the eventual need to relocate to realise an Estate plan, and the cost of maintaining squared on the land map to do so
Moon Adamant: i still have, i think, the 3D visualizations i did for CN plan
Moon Adamant: so if i can manage to install cad again, i can pull them on current locations
Michel Manen: im sorry every one i have to leave now.... good bye all :)
Moon Adamant: and that will give us a better view
Patroklus Murakami: we've discussed 'clustering' v 'continuous' development and the need for our plan to be flexible to cope with changing needs
Sudane Erato: bye Michel
Patroklus Murakami: bye michel and thanks
TOPGenosse Brouwer: bye Michel
Moon Adamant: bye Michel :)
Jon Seattle: Bye Michel
Ulysse Alexandre: bye
Patroklus Murakami: and we've discussed some of the options the RA needs to consider depending on whether the priority is territorial or population expansion
Patroklus Murakami: now, what we need is a proposal (with options) for the RA to consider
TOPGenosse Brouwer: all that before coming wednesday? 8-D
Patroklus Murakami: so, on the basis of the discussion so far, we need a small group of volunteers to work up a fuller plan
Moon Adamant: i have time from Monday on
Patroklus Murakami: ty moon :)
Jon Seattle: I would like to work on that too.
Moon Adamant: and not this wednesday, but the other
TOPGenosse Brouwer: all these 'sims' surrounding NFS & CN *look so goooood* ;-)
Sudane Erato: i'll like to try to help... but
Patroklus Murakami: any other volunteers? ty jon :)
Sudane Erato: i'll try Pat
Moon Adamant: thanks Jon and Sudane :))
Patroklus Murakami: ty sudane :)
Ulysse Alexandre: I am not enough experienced to be usefull, I suppose?
TOPGenosse Brouwer: Pat > I'll try to say something sensible about it
Patroklus Murakami: i'll post our discussion on the forums so that others can contribute/read our deliberations
Moon Adamant: oh, mind also one thing
Moon Adamant: IF
Patroklus Murakami: all help gratefully received ulysse :)
Moon Adamant: all future sim plans have a non-theme area such as CN has
Xander Barbosa has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: hmm, why would that be moon?
Moon Adamant: the new themes can connect directly within one sim distance from NFS
Patroklus Murakami: buffer zones?
Moon Adamant: yes
Jon Seattle: Oh, Ulysse, I think that jumping in is the best way to learn :)
Ulysse Alexandre: Thank you
Moon Adamant: adn thanks Ulysse also .)
Patroklus Murakami: moon, could you also post the graphics we've been referring to so that ppl can follow the discussion? i'm not sure if we can publish desmond's 'grand plan' for caledon though
Moon Adamant: hm, i can try
Patroklus Murakami: just the twelve we had up at the start with the red and blue ones marked
Patroklus Murakami: that way ppl can follow our discussion
Moon Adamant: ok, lol
Moon Adamant: will have to do that again :D
Patroklus Murakami: i'll report back to teh RA tomorrow
Patroklus Murakami: do we need to meet again? if so, when (and I'm away 19-26 feb)
Moon Adamant: well, perhaps on the 27th then?
The meeting closed at 6:38 Linden time.

N.B. We agreed to meet at [i:2lwnm1kh]3pm[/i:2lwnm1kh] on Tuesday 27 February in the Praetorium, Colonia Nova after the meeting adjourned.

[b:2lwnm1kh]***Meeting rescheduled for 3pm on Wednesday 28 Feb in the Praetorium, Colonia Nova.***[/b:2lwnm1kh]

Last edited by Patroklus Murakami on Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Desmond Shang
Passionate Protagonist
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Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:56 pm

Post by Desmond Shang »


Please forgive my amusement upon seeing this transcript. :)

I'll happily clarify a few fun little points. Yes, my north coast is remaining - the question is only: how wide the sea? I didn't 'reserve solid' my coastline - I didn't have to. Only eight reservations define and lock in all the reserved gridspace you saw on that map, due to the coastal rights of sims.

Don't expect Caledon to grow like a swelling water balloon - it won't, and I'm likely to entrap some sizeable pockets of undeveloped grid. Why? Lag reduction, of course. Being in a sim surrounded by eight other sims presents the worst case scenario. Consider the data you can see with a draw distance greater than 256.

Another point. Does anyone remember Shermerville? Nine sims of suburban perfection, and what happened to it, and why? I suggest looking it up. There is a distinct reason why there are many quirks in Caledon's geography; many 'inefficiencies' and oddities. Oh, and it's easy to run a ferryline across a bit of water.

I've got some *definite* plans - but wisdom dictates that I see how demand unfolds before I commit. At any rate, if I keep poking along for another year much as I have been Caledon will be a 40k - 50k USD annual income, and I've yet to decide if I want to take it that seriously.

The demand is certainly there now, but most importantly, I don't want to tire of everything and find that my hobby refuge has one day become work. I may not grow past two more sims, or I may grow past two hundred more. Depends how things feel as everything goes along and I simply don't know yet.

Good luck with your planning! I'm sure it will be an incredible experience for all.

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