Parliamentary Convention

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Dianne
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Parliamentary Convention

Post by Dianne »

Hello, I am putting this in General even though it's sort of about legislation as it is really just a private citizens request to those thinking of running in the next election. Any moderator that wants to move it please feel free to do so.

Okay, so in recent discussions in the SC and throughout all our recent crises, it became apparent to me (and I think to several others) that there is little "flesh" on the bones of the procedures around how the RA works in terms of seats, seat assignment, factions, how they form, how they break up, under what conditions the assembly itself is inviable or would dissolve etc.

Since the house or assembly is in such a state, it's unlikely that big issues like this can or should be dealt with until after the next election because we need to make sure everyones voice is heard and that things are done fairly etc.

So... I don't intend to run in the elections myself, but I will (like everyone), be voting and I thought that since whoever wins the next election will likely be tackling these issues, I would like to hear the individual factions make some sort of comment on them as part of their platform.

[i:2vfsssjg]A Factions platform and the legislation they put forward is of course entirely up to them, and no one including the SC, can tell them what bills to put up. [/i:2vfsssjg] However as a private citizen I think these are important issues and I for one will be voting based on my impression of whether the faction in question will be dealing with them and how they will be dealing with them.

This may be totally too early of course, but here is your chance to tell us what you would do on the issue of RA procedures if elected! :D

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Patroklus Murakami
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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Those are excellent questions Dianne and I agree that we need to consider them in advance of the next set of elections.

I think that we could try to build a common agreement on this though. I don't think that the questions you raise will necessarily result in differences of opinion between factions. So I'd like to try for consensus where possible!

With that spirit in mind, here are some of my thoughts on principles that should apply to a future system. If these have general support we can work them up into legislation/constitutional amendments:

[list:1ky3mdok][b:1ky3mdok]Seats and Seat Assignment[/b:1ky3mdok]. We should have a clear rule of succession in place so that, when RA seats become vacant, they go to the next person on the faction list as presented to the electorate. In future, no one who has not been presented to the electorate should be allowed to take up a vacant seat on the RA. This isn't a dig at Pel (and I think the SDF have the right to fill their seats according to the current rules) but the candidates, as much as the faction platform, influence voter decisions and we should not allow a loophole to remain which allows unpopular 'ringers' to be installed after an election.

[b:1ky3mdok]Vacancies[/b:1ky3mdok]. What happens if the faction in question runs out of candidates? I think we should hold by-elections for vacant seats in these circumstances.

[b:1ky3mdok]Factions[/b:1ky3mdok]. I'd like to keep the faction system largely as we currently have it. There are good arguments for altering the electoral system to allow for Independants to run (and good electoral systems we could use). Upon reflection, however, I think that factions force a certain amount of collective action to take place and prevent the election of 'one man bands'. I think this is good for our democracy.

[b:1ky3mdok]Faction Dissolution[/b:1ky3mdok]. Recent events, ahem, have shown that factions can be subject to a sudden exodus that leaves them with less than the minimum number of members specified in the Constitution. There is then a question over whether the faction can be deemed to have 'dissolved' and some debate at the last SC meeting over who should make this judgement and when. With our current population of 30 the current rules require that a faction command the active membership of 10% of the population at all times. This is not reasonable. Factions need to be given time to regroup. I would suggest a 'grace period' for recruiting more members if membership falls below the minimum or making it clear that the minimum number must be in play at key times, such as when elections are held.[/list:u:1ky3mdok]

That's probably enough thoughts for now!

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Post by Claude Desmoulins »

These are interesting thoughts.

[quote="Patroklus Murakami":1vx5k7i7]

[b:1vx5k7i7]Seats and Seat Assignment[/b:1vx5k7i7]. We should have a clear rule of succession in place so that, when RA seats become vacant, they go to the next person on the faction list as presented to the electorate. In future, no one who has not been presented to the electorate should be allowed to take up a vacant seat on the RA. This isn't a dig at Pel (and I think the SDF have the right to fill their seats according to the current rules) but the candidates, as much as the faction platform, influence voter decisions and we should not allow a loophole to remain which allows unpopular 'ringers' to be installed after an election.[/quote:1vx5k7i7]

Given that factions rank their members as part of the general election process, the faction list to which you refer is different from any in RL in at least two respects. First, it consists of all members of a given faction (since willingness to serve is not revealed publicly). Second, it is unordered.

My impression is that this was quite intentional on the part of the constitution writers. Having seen the peronality driven campaigns of single seat constituencies and first past the post systems, they sought a method whereby the unaligned voter would be actively prevented from voting for a person. Instead, it was hoped that the faction driven system would force voters to vote based on the ideas presented in party platforms, creating the kind of issue driven campaigns Jon refers to in another thread.

Most of the calls for widespread electoral reform seem to be based on the desire to vote explicitly for or against a person, and argue that people do it implicitly when sitting down to choose their preferred factions.

Some of this tendency has been evident in previous city elections where individual faction members would produce campaign statements/signs/etc. I always found this interesting, as a Bancroft '06 poster (for example) was actually appealing to the small set of SDF members who could actually wote for its creator rather than just the SDF as a whole.

I like the current system, although I'm aware others don't. I like the efforts, however halting, to make the election platform rather than person driven.

[quote:1vx5k7i7]
[b:1vx5k7i7]Vacancies[/b:1vx5k7i7]. What happens if the faction in question runs out of candidates? I think we should hold by-elections for vacant seats in these circumstances.
[/quote:1vx5k7i7]

Since citizens who are not members of factions don't ever vote for a particular person, how would one accomplish this? Would the by election be a general election or at the faction member ranking level?

[quote:1vx5k7i7]
[b:1vx5k7i7]Faction Dissolution[/b:1vx5k7i7]. Recent events, ahem, have shown that factions can be subject to a sudden exodus that leaves them with less than the minimum number of members specified in the Constitution. There is then a question over whether the faction can be deemed to have 'dissolved' and some debate at the last SC meeting over who should make this judgement and when. With our current population of 30 the current rules require that a faction command the active membership of 10% of the population at all times. This is not reasonable. Factions need to be given time to regroup. I would suggest a 'grace period' for recruiting more members if membership falls below the minimum or making it clear that the minimum number must be in play at key times, such as when elections are held.
[/quote:1vx5k7i7]

The three person standard is linked to the LL requirement that inworld groups have three members. By linking factions to inworld groups, a citizen can sign up for a faction at any time, and the list of faction members remains public. The trade off for this is the minimum faction/group size.

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Patroklus Murakami
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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Thanks for your contribution Claude. You have cleared up one or two points that were confused in my mind. Here are some further thoughts in response:

[b:2693wuhx]Factions[/b:2693wuhx]. [quote:2693wuhx]Given that factions rank their members as part of the general election process, the faction list to which you refer is different from any in RL in at least two respects. First, it consists of all members of a given faction (since willingness to serve is not revealed publicly). Second, it is unordered. [/quote:2693wuhx]

Wow! I didn't realise that's what the rules meant. So you vote for a faction without necessarily knowing which faction members are on the list? That just seems wrong to me, as a voter I'd like to know who I'm voting for as much as the platform. I'll recommend that the newly-formed CSDF make their list public at election time.

[b:2693wuhx]Vacancies[/b:2693wuhx].[quote:2693wuhx]Since citizens who are not members of factions don't ever vote for a particular person, how would one accomplish this? Would the by election be a general election or at the faction member ranking level? [/quote:2693wuhx]

Using the electoral system we currently have, the by-election would have to be run in the same way as a general election but for a smaller number of seats. E.g. if there were to be a by-election now it would be for the two vacant RA seats.

[b:2693wuhx]Faction Dissolution[/b:2693wuhx]. [quote:2693wuhx]The three person standard is linked to the LL requirement that inworld groups have three members. [/quote:2693wuhx]

Yes, I agree that is where the minimum membership requirement comes from. My initial post was in reaction to the discussion at the last SC where some present were arguing that the SC should have a role in declaring factions defunct if they fall below that threshold. I wanted to make it clear that I don't agree with this line of argument. I think it would be unfair, for example, for a government body to declare the SDF defunct at the current time when we are trying to regroup.

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Post by Claude Desmoulins »

[quote="Patroklus Murakami":26zv1fmy]
Wow! I didn't realise that's what the rules meant. So you vote for a faction without necessarily knowing which faction members are on the list? That just seems wrong to me, as a voter I'd like to know who I'm voting for as much as the platform. I'll recommend that the newly-formed CSDF make their list public at election time.
[/quote:26zv1fmy]

Article IV, Section 2 reads, in part:

"Members
rank individuals in their own faction by means of the Borda count.
Individuals will learn their ranks and those winning seats will have
their ranks revealed, otherwise all ranks will remain secret. The
faction vote will be taken at the same time citizens vote for factions.
This ranking is used to select who will receive seats in the RA. "

It's unclear how broad the prohibition against revealing ranks is, or whether it would violate free expression rights if applied to an individual. Because of the way faction ranking now works, a faction would have to meet ahead of time and agree how they will rank in order to publicize an ordered list before the general election.

[quote:26zv1fmy]

Using the electoral system we currently have, the by-election would have to be run in the same way as a general election but for a smaller number of seats. E.g. if there were to be a by-election now it would be for the two vacant RA seats.[/quote:26zv1fmy]

If you do it that way, does it render the statement "Each faction controls their seats..." in article I, section 2, meaningless?

[quote:26zv1fmy]Yes, I agree that is where the minimum membership requirement comes from. My initial post was in reaction to the discussion at the last SC where some present were arguing that the SC should have a role in declaring factions defunct if they fall below that threshold. I wanted to make it clear that I don't agree with this line of argument. I think it would be unfair, for example, for a government body to declare the SDF defunct at the current time when we are trying to regroup.[/quote:26zv1fmy]

Although if the inworld group drops below three members, you have 24 or 48 hours before the system dissolves it. It will take some work to reconcile what you propose with the limitations on groups put in place by LL. I think some sort of grace period is a good idea, but at some point, if there is to be a constitutional requirement on faction size, some body must step up and enforce it.

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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Claude

You asked if a requirement to hold a by-election in certain circumstances would render a part of the Constitution (Article I, section2 "Each faction controls their seats...") meaningless.

First of all, the requirement to hold a by-election would only kick in when the faction had run out of members who had indicated at the time of the election that they were willing to serve. It's my contention that in future, in those circumstances, we should not allow factions to fill a vacant seat with someone who was not on the list at election time.

So factions control their seats, [b:32158m92]until [/b:32158m92]they run out of people on their list, then there is a by-election.

This would require some amendment to the Constitution. My aim, in responding to Dianne's initiation of this discussion, was to see if we could forge a consensus around some points of principle. Any legislative/constitutional change can flow from that, provided people think these are sensible ways to go.

On faction disssolution, I think the most straightforward ruling would be that a faction needs to have at least three citizens among its members on polling day for a general election or a by-election. It would make sense for the SC to oversee and enforce this requirement.

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Post by Aliasi Stonebender »

[quote="Patroklus Murakami":3225t0l0]
Wow! I didn't realise that's what the rules meant. So you vote for a faction without necessarily knowing which faction members are on the list? That just seems wrong to me, as a voter I'd like to know who I'm voting for as much as the platform. I'll recommend that the newly-formed CSDF make their list public at election time.
[/quote:3225t0l0]

Yep. In theory, individual candidates "don't matter" in the current system.

[quote:3225t0l0]
Yes, I agree that is where the minimum membership requirement comes from. [/quote:3225t0l0]

I [i:3225t0l0]know[/i:3225t0l0] it 'cause I wrote it. :D

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Pelanor Eldrich
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Here's my take. You vote a platform and a slate.

Post by Pelanor Eldrich »

A citizen will see who the members of a faction are prior to the election, but not who will get seats or become LRA. You look at the talent on the roster and decide:

a)Do I support this platform above all others?
b)Can this team get the job done?

-Then you cast your vote.

I realize this is fairly alien to us, but it's how it's written. To make things a little more familar we could, *without changing any laws*, do the following:

Hold a faction congress prior to the election, hold a non-binding straw poll of faction members willing to serve. Publicize the list prior to the election. Keep in mind that faction ranking will occur formally again by secret ballot so if someone changes their faction ranking vote on election day, you might not get what you were expecting.

By the same token, when a member must leave an RA seat, the next ranked member takes his or her place. Otherwise an appointment must be made by the faction leader.

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